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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   3751 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for December 8, 2023

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

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The european mind cannot comprehend this

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The european mind cannot comprehend this.

I hate you because you're not wrong. It is an apt illustration of what has been lost.

Well, if you'd bought BONK last month you'd have 6xed your investment. Fly-in fly-out truck drivers in some Australian mines can still get comparable wages considering they only have to work half the time (albeit with long hours). There are lots of ways to make money in this world.

Hell, I have been in America for the last 6 years and I cannot comprehend this.

I have yet to see a manager in these jobs that isn't in their 40s, so may be skewed, but still. That's an excellent wage. You would struggle to make a tech wage that good outside the big tech cities or in consulting out of the Big-3 MBB.

How is there any poverty in the US at all ?

Is this in a location with an extremely high cost of living?

Nah. Buc-ee’s are usually on big highways firmly outside the urban sprawl.

No it's not, and that belief is at least partially reponible for the disparity.

All non-Americans, barring maybe Norwegians and the Swiss. But American wealth is still something to behold just the scale of it.

I've seen redditors complaining about the picture above on how hard Buccees works its employees, it's like no shit buddy, that's what the money is for! People work harder for much less in most places in the world, I guarantee you that.

I chose the wrong profession. I certainly didn't chose the right country to be born in, not that I had a choice in the matter!

You know what craft-and-survive games that have a single save per playthrough like Subnautica need? A fucking autosave mechanic.

The devs quit way too early on that one. The learning curve is all over the place, and the horror effect lasts maybe one hour. Shame, it's such a cool game.

Survivalcraft genre is one of the most blatant and effective Skinner boxes out there, even with a broken progression. There's always another blueprint to craft that will improve your quality of life. And that's doubly annoying, because that lost session in Below 0 was all about moving from a drop pod into a proper seabase, with lots of harvesting trips that you can't speedrun.

Are you looking forward to the next Subnautica? I'm coping hoping they will backpedal from below zero and make something closer to the original.

No, not really.

Sorry for your loss

Thank you, I appreciate it.

We took our kid to the cat theatre today. A bit of fun to start the holiday season: it's basically a play for children with various circus-style tricks performed by cats. Its original founder, the father of the current manager, was never coy about his role: "I can't teach a cat to perform tricks, no one can, I can only take a hundred cats and find out which ones are naturally inclined to perform which tricks".

So that's how the performance goes: this cat is great at climbing poles, that cat is good at walking along them, the third one doesn't mind walking on top of a large ball, the fourth one loves to jump, et cetera. But the big problem for a viewer prone to overanalyzing everything lies not in the cats or the humans. The show uses a couple of white poodles for certain tasks that are too big for the cats and it's like watching ChatGPT being used to check someone's spelling.

The complexity of dog tricks is kept in line with the cat tricks to not detract from the latter and you can't help but feel untapped potential. No, you can't get a dog to perform every trick a cat can, but when you see a dog push a cart it does it with eagerness and purposefulness that suggest this is what you could've had instead, whereas you see the cat's final and only form on stage.

Is there a deeper meaning to this, a lesson for us all? No idea, but if you ever find yourself with children in Moscow, go see the cat theatre.

this

What thousands of years of selective breeding does to a mf…

My personal favorite is Pink, but I want to share Lobo the husky. Poor thing is not optimized for this, but goodness, he seems to be having a lot of fun anyway. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a cat having fun in my life. Whether feisty or tripping, they just look so highly strung.

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a cat having fun in my life. Whether feisty or tripping, they just look so highly strung.

Really? My cats spend a lot of time absolutely chilling. Find a nice place in the yard and sit there and take in the sights.

Sorry, they’re totally capable of chilling. I’m saying they don’t get excited without looking on edge, not like a dog can.

But this is definitely cat-specific. Some just look pissed by default.

Yeah, I think for them excitement is usually tied to the thrill of the hunt. Although my cats are also excited to see me when I'm back after a vacation, that seems to be excitement mixed with reproach.

Having gotten a couple cats recently, I've ended up down a YouTube rabbit hole of old Animal Planet episodes of My Cat From Hell and It's Me or the Dog, shows where a celebrity animal trainer comes and helps out an owner of a misbehaving cat and dog, respectively, and the contrast in those perfectly matches what you've noticed about cats and and dogs, as well as the wider stereotype. In the cat show, most of the trainer's work is in creating indirect benefits for the cat, including better home environment, a schedule, exercise routine, and such, which ideally results in the cat being able to better channel their instincts towards behavior befitting a pet cat rather than a feral predator. In the dog show, most of the trainer's work is in directly engaging with the dogs and training them to respond to specific commands in specific ways that directly address the exact behavior problems they have. Though the latter does often involve the indirect stuff like routine and diet, too.

Cats are definitely trainable, but dogs are so optimized for trainability they make cats seem untrainable by comparison. I think the biggest difference is that dogs are good at processing human social cues - voice, facial expression, and gestures. But cats are looking for cat social cues. This is why the cat always climbs into the lap of the party guest who hates cats. For a cat, avoiding eye contact and turning your back to them is a sign of friendliness; you're saying "I'm not threatened by you and I'm not a threat to you." To relate to a cat you have to think and act like a cat, but to relate to a dog you can think and act like human.

This might be an old wives' tale, but I heard that if you point at something, a dog will look where you're pointing. A cat will look at your finger.

My cats are about 50/50 with looking at my finger or what I'm pointing at, which isn't that much worse than my dog, so I'm not sure that's completely true.

Which is why, as a cat owner, this moment in X-Men 2 is hilarious because it's true.

This absolutely matches my experience, having gotten a couple cats about a month ago. I've been training one to follow my finger, but it really is following my finger, not where my finger is pointing, and so I have to actually physically place my finger at the platform or whatever I want him to go to; if my finger is hovering a few feet away from the platform, then it's well less than 50/50 that he'll go to the platform. Whereas the dogs I've encountered in my life seemed to just intuitively understand to look at the direction I was pointing at.

Completely true. Most animals, even monkeys, have a hard time understanding pointing because it requires a pretty sophisticated theory of mind. Dogs are one of the few species that can consistently understand pointing.

This is true for a comparison between dogs and wolves. Much of the evolutionary and behavioral divergence has been them evolving to understand us, and others, such as developing more visible eyebrows and moving them, to help us understand them.

I theorize that the human neurology optimized for understanding canine faces is what causes humans to become furries. I know that, as a kid with Asperger's, my family's dogs were my best friends.

Yes, basically cats lack a robust theory of mind, whereas dogs have a theory of mind that allows them to infer intentions. This makes "no" and other punishment-type responses especially ineffective for cats because it requires an inferential leap: I knocked over the lamp, the human made a loud scary noise. To connect those things causally you need to form a hypothesis about the human's mental state (they are upset I knocked over the lamp) which cats struggle to do.

Cat Psychology & Domestication: Are We Good Owners? by Gwern.

Bradshaw reviews the history of domestic cats from their apparent Middle Eastern origins as a small solitary desert predator to their domestication in Ancient Egypt where breeding millions of cats for sacrifice may have played a critical role (as opposed to any unique role as a vermin exterminator) through to the modern day and psychological studies of the learning abilities and personalities of cats, with particular emphasis on cat social skills in “cat colonies” & plasticity in kittenhood.

As Bradshaw diagnoses it, these are responsible for what ability they have to modern pet life, even though they are not bred for this like dogs; every tame cat still has the feral cat in them, and are in many ways unsuited for contemporary living, with disturbing hints that human lack of selective breeding plus recent large-scale spay/neuter population control efforts may be producing a subtle dysgenic effect on domestication, and this double neglect & backfire may be responsible for disturbingly high rates of cat maladaptation & chronic stress diseases.

A side note: I sometimes worry that modern spay/neuter campaigns are, on net, reversing the domestication process for cats. Practically the only individuals that are allowed to reproduce these days are 1) expensive purebreds and 2) feral cats so averse to humans that they escape TNR programs. If you have a snuggly, trainable one, let her make more!

Same thing for dogs, only with added bonus that it's the aggressive breeds which get to breed as their owners don't care enough to spay/neuter.

As a cat person, I honestly think cats probably are stupider than dogs. It's difficult to quantify, since you can't give these animals IQ tests or even proxies of such, but IIRC some measure of brain complexity showed dogs' to be more complex, which is at least a crude and noisy proxy for intelligence. Which largely conforms with common sense formed from general everyday experiences people have with these creatures. I wish more cat people were just accepting of this instead of treating "stupid" like an insult or "smart" like a compliment about virtue. Cats are stupider than dogs, but that doesn't change the objective fact that they are better than dogs.

A side note: I sometimes worry that modern spay/neuter campaigns are, on net, reversing the domestication process for cats. Practically the only individuals that are allowed to reproduce these days are 1) expensive purebreds and 2) feral cats so averse to humans that they escape TNR programs. If you have a snuggly, trainable one, let her make more!

This sounds like fodder for a The Time Machine reimagining involving cats evolving into cat-Eloi and cat-Morlocks. Maybe mix in some genetic engineering with Elon making catgirls real, to justify the cats gaining enough intelligence to form actual societies.

That's correct. A cat adopted us at our dacha last fall. We named him Asshole, but he really was a sweet specimen, sleeping inside all day, stepping out only to do his dirty business, and hunting all night. He was too outdoors a cat for us to take home, so we converted out greenhouse into a cathouse, with a narrow opening to keep out the snow, an insulated enclosed sleeping box and got our neighbor who would spend the winter there to come and feed him, but Asshole preferred to disappear and probably die instead.

Is there a deeper meaning to this, a lesson for us all?

I dunno, but I know what Stonetoss would have to say on the matter.

Man, what a tool.

Internet atheism may be dead, but the spirit of smugposting lives on.

I find some of his comics funny, but a lot of them are pretty poor, or too extremely online to be properly funny.

We listened to traditional Christmas carols these past weeks, now let's get more modern with it - what are your favourite newer Christmas songs (let's say recorded no earlier than 1970 1967)?

I'll start with some older ones - Step into Christmas by Elton John has always been popular in my family, because Elton John has always been popular in my family. But even leaving that aside it's a great song, and it's classic Taupin, with Elton breaking the fourth wall in the very first line to welcome us to his song, and the rest of the lyrics seeming perfectly christmassy if you aren't paying much attention, but actually kind of confused about the event if you do. Oh admission's free is it? One of those rare religious holidays you don't have to pay for? I'll 'step into it' then.

Merry Christmas Everyone by Shakin' Stevens is another song that always gets played at my Christmas dos, it always used to trip me up because I had never heard of Shakin' Stevens outside of it - actually until about 5 years ago I thought it was somehow Shadoe Stevens, the former host of American Top 40, who sang it. It is not, Shakin Stevens is some Welsh guy. Apparently he released this song the year after Band Aid released the immeasurably shitty Do They Know Its Christmas (no link for the second most patronising Christmas song in existence), when he wasn't invited to join in. I like to imagine he calls Geldof every year and rubs his face in it.

What Christmas Means To Me by Stevie Wonder is one of my all time favourites - it's why I dialed the cut off back 3 years - no one sells enthusiasm like Stevie Wonder. The blend of Motown music and traditional Christmas instruments is brilliantly done, and the lyrics are so earnest and sweet. When I'm feeling grinchy I just have to pop this on and I find my goodwill easily.

Last Christmas by Wham does not usually get added to my Christmas playlists, but that's because it's everywhere else all the time here in Australia. Even my fifteen year old neighbour knows it off by heart (he has been singing it in the shower this past week). Like all good Wham songs it's the George Michael show - he played every instrument on it, as well as writing the lyrics and music.

Christmas isn't Christmas 'til You Get Here by Kylie Minogue - God I love this song. Kylie ramps her cuteness into maximum overdrive to sing it, and the lyrics are just adorable - the repetition of single words (like ring, ring, ring, and blink, blink, blink), the bit about fairy lights, and there's a real sense of impatience in the way the bridge leads into the next verse that flows perfectly with the lyrics.

Christmas in Hollis by Run DMC is the quintessential Christmas rap. Mixing in the music from a bunch of different carols in classic Jay style, the boys rap about returning Santa's wallet, getting presents and Christmas dinner. The elf in the music video is pure uncanny valley though, just plain unsettling.

Doowop Christmas by Kem might technically not belong on this list - I've been told that because it's religious it's a carol, not a song. And boy is it religious, not only does Kem dismiss presents as paling in comparison to God's love, he also doesn't like Santa! He says "Santa's alright with me" twice in the song, and everyone knows that's code for "I hate Santa but realise no one is buying a Christmas song where I lay into him." But it's very catchy nonetheless, especially if you enjoy a cappella music.

Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree by Brenda Lee is a classic, and as a result I kind of hate it. Also it's 70 years old so it really doesn't belong in this list. But how could we skip the first song to beat Mariah Carey in the billboard charts since they added streaming to the count in 2018? Rockin is the number one track this year, having played runner up to All I Want For Christmas Is You the previous four years. How did it beat out a nigh infinitely better song? Well Lee made a music video for it this year, which got very popular on Tiktok. She definitely doesn't have everyone she knows streaming the song on repeat day and night on every device they own, no those Tiktokers love watching videos of old ladies swaying in a nightie. Also on a potentially related note according to YouTube Music it's an explicit song, which means I haven't been mishearing it all these years, she is actually singing "maybe we'll have some fuckin pie and we'll do some carolling".

Oh Santa! by Mariah Carey - while Oh Santa! will never be as much fun as All I Want For Christmas Is You, it's definitely a fun song in which Mariah begs Santa to return her ex for Christmas. Personally I prefer the version where she sings by herself as opposed to the music video's version with Jennifer Hudson and Ariana Grande - Jennifer Hudson is a great addition, but it sounds like Ariana needed a couple of xanax to get through the performance. And how is it Grande is wearing the least slutty outfit? Shouldn't the youngest performer wear the sluttiest outfit, not the oldest? Also what the fuck are you looking at in the sky to your left Mariah, can't you just look at the camera like everyone else? Anyway the song, I was talking about the song. It's catchy.

Santa Claus Goes Straight to the Ghetto 2017 by Snoop Dogg and Boyz II Men is a difficult song to track down, because not only has Snoop released a dozen different tracks called Santa Claus Goes Straight to the Ghetto, but so did James Brown. The 2017 version of the song is my favourite, it does a brilliant job of combining Snoop's musical sensibilities with the soul and feeling of Boyz II Men, and it's full of heart from start to finish. Snoop raps about the days of Christmas, about trading Hennessey for weed for the holidays and about having a baby girl so his mom can be a grandma, and the Boyz II Men sing beautifully as always.

There are many other great Christmas songs I haven't mentioned yet, what are your favourites?

Aw man bummed I missed this. Almost a month late to the comment, a week late for Christmas. Don't care, call it long-prep for next Christmas.

King of citypop Tatsuro Yamashita's 1983 Christmas Eve. His most famous track, the easy listening better-of-muzak with Christmas vibe layered on perfectly. A fundamentally pleasant, hopeful song that even being of secular Japan feels Christian.

Out of Norway, Röyksopp's 2010 Le Cantique de Noël. A thoroughly unexpected given-their-discography, ethereal instrumental of Adolphe Adam's Cantique de Noël, which American listeners who would know would know as "O Holy Night."

The first Tyler Joseph song on the list and the first sung Christian carol, 2014 O Come, O come, Emmanuel. The emcee comes back out to say "Wow, that was dark." Dark and beautiful it is, like Carol of the Bells.

As for Carol of the Bells, composer Calvin Jones' 2022 arrangement of the original Ukrainian Shcedryk. While full of liberties in Jones' interpretation it's replaced the Mormon Tabernacle Choir as my favorite version.

Tyler Joseph again for Twenty One Pilot's 2021 Christmas Saves the Year. Lighter lyrical fare than Joseph's usual writing but certainly still meaningful to the spirit of the holiday.

Kaskade, who I'd think most people outside of Utah don't know is Mormon, appropriately released his second Christmas album last month. As a fan of electronic music and particularly his work in house and its subgenres I've quite enjoyed both albums, with my favorite off the latter as Angels We Have Heard. (Off-Christmas music, Kaskade previously worked with The Moth & The Flame on the excellent Haunt Me)

aaaand oh I gotta round off with Carly Rae Jepsen since she covered Last Christmas. I think Jepsen's at her best on higher BPM and-so higher energy tracks, but it's still good.

Fairytale of New York, routinely voted the best Christmas song by Irish and British people, and for good reason. Every December there's a tiresome and interminable debate about whether or not the song is homophobic because the lyrics feature the word "faggot", ignoring the context that it's said in character by an alcoholic heroin addicted woman who's going out of her way to insult and belittle her partner. Lead singer Shane McGowan died a few weeks ago, meaning the Irish radio stations have been playing this one even more often than usual this Christmas, although frankly his death came as no surprise to anyone and he's looked like he's on death's door for years now.

This song is mostly unheard of in America, but I’ve been trying to spread the good word about it since I heard it around holiday season 2017.

Yeah I was going to say, I'm a bit surprised to see how popular this song has become. It's always been in my family's playlists, because The Pogues were only slightly less popular than Elton in my family, but I always feel like I'm on the defensive about it with other people in Australia. Learning it's actually popular and not just because McGowan passed is making me pretty emotional right now. It's not a particularly nice (or saccharine) Christmas song, but it absolutely nails the feel of the holiday when you can't summon denial.

Dido's Christmas Day though it never really caught on as a Christmas song.

I actually hadn't heard that before, it's really sweet and sad and she sings beautifully. Do you think he ever came back?

I like to think so, but I'm a pretty hopeless romantic.

Observations from a Visit to Walt Disney World

  1. I was aware of the "Disney Girl" stereotype; I wasn't aware how many middle-aged women treat Disney and its merchandise with a quasi-religious fervor. This seems to inhabit a different space from the mid-life-crisis buying frenzy in men, where guys purchase all the things they coveted in their youth but didn't have the means or freedom to buy then - with the ladies, it looks more like a deeper and deeper retreat into childish escapism, a desire to return to what the world - and the Disney company - once represented for them and no longer does: possibility and wonder. Whatever the reason, I couldn't help but look on these women as "failure to launch" types, and I wonder if this is the first generation appearing that way in the Disney parks - surely there weren't 40-year-old fanatical Disney moms in the 1980s or 90s.

  2. I had last visited WDW in 2006 and, by the look of things, that was also the last time the park had been properly maintained. Visiting the parks today as an admirer of Walt Disney The Man (TM) seems about as connected as watching modern-day Manchester United as a fan of Matt Busby - everything is a little more pathetic, a lot more expensive, and completely lost from its original intent. It's incredible how the parks had a reputation - not even twenty years ago - of being impeccably maintained experiences so detail-obsessed that even the smells were pumped in. Maybe I'm just older and seeing the things I couldn't have seen as a teenager, but the Disney World of today is about as magical as a Rainforest Café... "okay, I can see that this was probably cool when it actually worked and had a fresh coat of paint."

  3. It was nice to see the world coming together among the attendees and their many accents, but it only made more obvious that the Mexican Spanish accent really is the most annoying sound the human voice can produce. How did that nasal, reedy, words-strung-together-without-a-breath-for-not-even-exaggerating-five-minutes-or-more dialect come to exist? This must be how British people feel about my accent.

  4. With all of the... "cleansing"... the parks have undergone in recent years, I was surprised to still see a performing African "tribal band" in Animal Kingdom, complete with animal skins, grass anklets, and face paint. For what it's worth, they did appear to be real Africans and had a fantastic ensemble sound.

  5. Of Walt's many ambitions for his parks, most hit a high point in the 1990s under Eisner and have been in freefall ever since - the "escapist fantasy," the unrivaled excellence, the obsession with details. The one remaining quality is the melting pot; the mix of the richest and poorest demographics in one place (even if money gets you an "improved" experience). Though I had lost the magical curiosity once felt in Disney World, I did gaze in wonder at near-aristocratic families from Istanbul and Madrid stuck in line behind a family of 400-pound wheelchair-bound Floridians stained with turkey grease. And there are tons - let me make this clear - tons of wheelchairs in the park - like, to the point where the whole place now seems primarily built for the handicapped customer.

  6. You know that saying about Japan - that they've been stuck in the year 2000 for the last 40 years? There's something of that in Disney World too - they've been stuck in 1990 since 1970. For all their "innoventions" of the last thirty years, the greatest rides are still the original ones - It's a Small World, Space Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean - really all the dark rides still have a magical quality about them.

  7. The biggest detrimental change to Disney World (and the company at large) since my last visit in 2006 is the loss of the "Disney identity" or the "Disney feel" due to their acquisitions - and obsessive marketing - of Marvel and Star Wars. Those brands feel so cheap in Disney's hands when compared with what "Disney" used to represent - Mickey and friends, the idealism of a better tomorrow, the wonder of childhood. Every area, every store, every restaurant that used to have a magical aura about it now seems weighed down with sad Marvel gimmicks or flimsy Star Wars plasticware, and the homogeneity of the parks - a homogeneity that used to be so strong as to make Tower of Terror and Toontown both feel like two places in the same universe - is completely gone.

  8. One thing I was surprised to see thriving at Disney, given the changes in both the parks and the world over the years, was an excellent model of early fatherhood. Many new families still gravitate to the parks, and maybe it's just the now-higher ticket prices, but it seemed a majority of these had a two-parent model with fathers who were sincerely invested in their child's experience - and the wonder of a child at Disney World is really something to behold. I met and got to know a few of these families - many of the fathers were recent military veterans; maybe that has something to do with the demographic being represented.

  9. Finally, I understand that the Disney company of today is essentially a for-profit entertainment arm of the Democratic Party inhabiting the skin of a once-neutral (okay, right-leaning) organization, and therefore has felt it necessary to purge the shadows of the past. Even so, it was frustrating to me as a fan of Walt Disney The Man (TM) that there is no archival or historical experience within the parks as relates to the company itself. Surely there must be acres of warehouses with artifacts and curios and documents from the past 100 years of the company's existence - how is nothing exhibited in the parks? This is yet another area where I've likely completely misunderstood what the Disney experience is to the modern world.

In summary, a disappointing experience only in the sense that yet another thing that was awesome in my youth - that had the potential to only grow more awesome year-on-year - has instead disintegrated into a bland, sanitized, "globohomo" experience with nothing particularly special about it. If you find yourself in the Central Florida area, I highly recommend making the trip to see some of the real, unsanitized history in the region - Kennedy Space Center, the Spanish Forts, the Dali Museum, the Circus tributes in Sarasota - and to avoid that which was once-great.

One thing I was surprised to see thriving at Disney, given the changes in both the parks and the world over the years, was an excellent model of early fatherhood. Many new families still gravitate to the parks, and maybe it's just the now-higher ticket prices, but it seemed a majority of these had a two-parent model with fathers who were sincerely invested in their child's experience - and the wonder of a child at Disney World is really something to behold. I met and got to know a few of these families - many of the fathers were recent military veterans; maybe that has something to do with the demographic being represented.

I had a similar experience, I went expecting a freakshow because of the reasons you mentioned but it was actually encouraging seeing all the families. I think most of the riff-raff is priced out of the experience which does make it better.

I wonder if this is the first generation appearing that way in the Disney parks - surely there weren't 40-year-old fanatical Disney moms in the 1980s or 90s.

I can say they for sure existed by the 90s as I interacted with some of them at that time. The "Disney Renaissance" coincided with making Disney versions of damn near everything and really pushing it into all corners of life which made this a viable archetype. Annual passes, especially those for Florida residents, were also cheaper at that time so that going to the park multiple times a year was a lot more accessible financially. In 1997 an annual pass was $269, inflation adjusted to $513 while in 2019 it was $1,119, inflation adjusted to $1,340. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the current crop of "Disney Moms" are the children of the initial crop.

I would not dispute, of course, that their numbers have increased greatly over time. I think the increase in prices and wait times along with the variety of schemes (fast pass, fast pass+, genie, apps, etc) to bypass these wait times has led to a lot more people planning their visit in the sort of obsessive, regimented way that those "Disney Moms" were in the 90s-early 2000s rather than just showing up and making their way through the parks, which used to be how almost everyone handled it. I think once you've spent however-much-time looking into different attractions and prioritizing them it's a lot easier to put disproportionate importance on the parks themselves.

I would not dispute, of course, that their numbers have increased greatly over time. I think the increase in prices and wait times along with the variety of schemes (fast pass, fast pass+, genie, apps, etc) to bypass these wait times has led to a lot more people planning their visit in the sort of obsessive, regimented way that those "Disney Moms" were in the 90s-early 2000s rather than just showing up and making their way through the parks, which used to be how almost everyone handled it. I think once you've spent however-much-time looking into different attractions and prioritizing them it's a lot easier to put disproportionate importance on the parks themselves.

It's obvious Disneylands are too scarce a resource, but I wonder where the sweet spot is. On the one hand, all these tiered priority schemes are basically free money. On the other hand, if the parks are so full, why not build a few more? Right now, there's one park in Europe and two in the US, you could build one in Texas, one in Italy and one in Turkey and all of them would be full.

Well, unless the operating costs of a park are so high right now that you have to incentivize people to buy priority passes to stay profitable, but this only makes me wish we could divorce the management of the parks from the IP somehow and let multiple competitors manage them. Doctorow was right, there are people out there who understand what make Disneyland great better than Disney itself does.

Right now, there's one park in Europe and two in the US, you could build one in Texas, one in Italy and one in Turkey and all of them would be full.

Disney has the name recognition but there is some competition. Portaventura in Spain was just as good as Eurodisney Paris when I visited as a kid, and Gardaland in Italy is apparently also a world class theme park.

EuropaPark in Germany as well.

Theme parks are just not a great business. For comparison, look at the stocks of Cedar Fair (FUN) or Six Flags (SIX). While obviously a tier below Disney, these companies have massively underperformed the market over a long period of time.

We used to go on family vacations to Cedar Point and my dad was so impressed by the high prices and massive crowds that he bought stock. But what he didn't see was high up front capital costs and huge maintenance expenses. Want to be cash flow negative while still paying high taxes? Build something in America.

If you want to make money, just make software bro. The tax system in America is biased against brick and mortar, even the ones that sell $12 hot dogs.

What does the tax system have to do with it? US software companies have profit margins of ~100%, at least for SaaSs. I’d go so far as to say that basically 100% of productivity gains between 1990 and today are from computers and that the tech industry itself captured the vast majority of that value. Are theme parks more productive than they were 30 years ago? What have they innovated?

What does the tax system have to do with it?

Glad you asked. If I pay you to make software, 100% of your salary is deductible immediately. If I build a factory, I have to depreciate it over decades and can only deduct a little each year.

For this reason, software will have great cash flow relative to paper earnings while capital intensive real world businesses the opposite is true.

For an example, take a look at the earnings and balance sheet of Micron (MU) for the last 10 years. They have, on paper, made great profits. Where has it all gone? Dividends? Buybacks? Sadly for investors no. All the money gets dumped back into capital investment (Property, Plant, and Equipment). Warren Buffett warned against buying these type of companies where all the profits go back to equipment. The balance sheet of Micron grows apace, but investors get little.

Are theme parks more productive than they were 30 years ago? What have they innovated?

This isn't how business works. Innovation is not necessary or sufficient to have high earnings. What have cigarette companies innovated? And yet they were the world's best investment of the 20th century. How about Lululemon? Are they innovators? Because their stock is a rocket ship to the moon.

Meanwhile Micron (MU) has been extremely innovative. Yet the stock has done nothing for 25 years.

To make money you need pricing power. You need a moat.. That's another reason software is a great business. Changing your payroll system is a pain in the ass, so when Gusto raises their prices 25% you just pay. Theme parks have no moat. If they charge too much, I can just take my kids somewhere else.

Right now, there's one park in Europe and two in the US, you could build one in Texas, one in Italy and one in Turkey and all of them would be full.

It may be worthwhile to look into all the problems Disney had opening Disneyland Paris and the problems they've continued to have there. That's likely a factor in not expanding more into Europe.

For Texas, geographically it makes a lot of sense, but given the problems they've been having in Florida lately I can understand their hesitancy.

To your point:

but this only makes me wish we could divorce the management of the parks from the IP somehow and let multiple competitors manage them.

Would solve this, but would be anathema to Disney itself. The modern vision for Disney parks is very clearly not Walt's, but the company is still highly attached to it.

This was worth posting in main thread IMO.

I have a friend who, for his honeymoon and at his wife’s request, went on a very expensive Disney cruise to a Disney island. When I heard this, I did feel an intuitive sense of disgust, but I had a difficult time justifying the feeling. What’s so bad about Disney that isn’t bad about going to Burning Man? What’s the difference between someone going to Disney, and someone buying an expensive car? And hell, what’s the actual substantive difference in consequence between going to Disney and going to the Sistine Chapel, or to the Eiffel Tower?

It irks me because for a normal adult American, there really is no difference in personal benefit. And actually, there’s probably a greater benefit to going to Disney than the Eiffel Tower — the tower is ugly and irrelevant to one’s life experiences, but the one who pilgrimages to Disney is reigniting and reexperiencing the fervent and innocent feelings of youth. Someone goes to the Eiffel Tower simply because of its cultural connotation (if not I have a cell phone tower to sell you), but Disney has even greater cultural connotation plus more. Not to mention less vagrants and peddlers. Is the difference that the socially advantageous trip to the Eiffel Tower is concealed as an interest in culture and not status? But wait, are we now on the same page of treasuring and hyping Western culture? And waiting even longer (as if a Disney ride) since when is Snow White and Fantasia and so forth not frankly wonderful pieces of Western culture? Better than a glorified cell phone tower, to be Frankish.

There’s a lot of tangents I want to go on here, but instead I’ll just briefly list two attractions: the key difference is indeed whether one adjoins his identity to a cultural tradition, which we all intuitively know is valuable; another key difference is whether there is a deeply substantive benefit to one’s soul (deepest level of personality), and cathedrals can do this better than Disney, but perhaps not by as much as we wish.

When I heard this, I did feel an intuitive sense of disgust, but I had a difficult time justifying the feeling. What’s so bad about Disney that isn’t bad about going to Burning Man?

Disney is largely a girl brand but you were exposed to it heavily in your childhood. It's fairly common for adult women to still have a love for Disney. Men remember it as a childhood thing they were never that into.

Basically you're having a reaction to the perceived childishness of it. Kind of like how you'd react to someone asking to go to one of those adult kindergartens.

I'm not sure what the exact parallel would be. Star Wars fandom used to skew heavily male but didn't have event locations. Auto shows seem to have a similar gender split, but they aren't child focussed. Comic cons before girls in sexy costumes started going could work. WWE and Monster Trucks fit apart from the fact that they are seen as low class.

Men remember it as a childhood thing they were never that into.

I think that depends on which movies they saw as a kid. All the princess movies? Yeah, they probably didn’t care too much about them. But The Sword in the Stone, Robin Hood, The Jungle Book, Pinocchio, The 101 Dalmatians, The Great Mouse Detective, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Fantasia—those were all great. I’ve noticed that, among my male friends with kids, the ones who are most positively-disposed toward Disney movies grew up with movies like those, while the ones who are completely indifferent to Disney movies only saw the princess ones.

I really liked Disney's The Jungle Book, The Little Mermaid and Sleeping Beauty as a child. I've seen The Jungle Book 30+ times.

But I haven't seen these films in the past 25 or 30 years or so. I really liked them as a young boy, but I'm not going to go to a nostalgia bend over them. I guess that is the difference between myself and these aging Disney women.

To the degree I'll revisit or relive the magic of these, it will be showing them to my child when they're old enough to withstand the screen time of a full length film.

That’s absolutely fair. I have seen a few of those films as an adult and without kids in the room, but I think all but one of those occasions was when my younger sister put one of them on when we were back visiting my parents.

I will say that I got more enjoyment out of rewatching those old Disney classics than I get watching most new movies. But the same holds true for most older movies and TV shows. I probably just have old-fashioned tastes.

I haven't seen many movies in the past few years, just a few on airplanes. They were pretty bad. The newest Star Wars was a mess. Live action Beauty and the Beast was inferior to my memories of the old animated version. Not sure why anyone had any inclination to make that movie.

At this point I'll probably enjoy watching old Disney movies with my child much more than the Disney junk I've seen recently.

Live action Beauty and the Beast was inferior to my memories of the old animated version. Not sure why anyone had any inclination to make that movie.

I think the cliche that as movies have become more expensive, pre-existing franchises that already have fans and/or that can play on nostalgia have become more appealing to studio execs is probably true. And I'm guessing Beauty and the Beast was well into production before the The Jungle Book live-action remake made almost a billion dollars, but it probably helped to motivate Disney to fast-track all the ones that came after. And, to be fair, they kept making money, and lots and lots of money, until they didn't.

To me, the whole thing has the look of a kind of cargo cult. They saw the massive success of those old movies and thought they could replicate it in live-action for even more success, and it worked for a while, since they did get a lot of the superficial similarities right. But as they kept making more and more, the audience has been wising up to the fact that they really lack the substance that made the originals great.

What I don't get is how Disney execs could be so incompetent as to not understand this. Their flagship films like The Lion King (CGI remake) make basic, fundamental, amateur errors in things like writing, acting, cinematography, even music (the entire sequence where Nala discovers adult Simba - a pivotal, very important moment in the film's narrative - is egregious in all of these, including setting the song Can You Feel The Love Tonight during the day). From what I've heard, their more recent ones like The Little Mermaid are even worse in many ways in that regard. It's like they tried to build all the decorations of a house to look like an older house without bothering with the foundations and support structure. Studio execs, just out of naked selfish interest, should understand that it's important to get this right! And studio execs at the exact same company 30 years ago seemed to understand this! Where did all that expertise and knowledge go?

And with Star Wars, Kathleen Kennedy, the president of Lucasfilm, gets a lot of the blame, but she herself was a producer in the old Indiana Jones films, i.e. the good ones. Where did all that filmmaking expertise that she herself had go? How could she sign off on "Somehow, Palpatine returned?"

I didn't see the earlier Where did all that filmmaking expertise that she herself had go? How could she sign off on "Somehow, Palpatine returned?"

As someone fairly out of the loop for modern films, that last Star Wars film was shocking. I was amazed at how bad it was. It was ultra fast paced rushing from one thing to the next. Just a jumbled mess rather than a film.

How the old Indiana Jones films and their creators could degrade into this is beyond me. I'm hoping this was some sort of high water mark for ultra fast paced filmmaking and everyone will take a deep breath from now on.

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(the entire sequence where Nala discovers adult Simba - a pivotal, very important moment in the film's narrative - is egregious in all of these, including setting the song Can You Feel The Love Tonight during the day)

what. the. fuck.

I've been ignoring the Disney Death Spiral, but how do you screw that up that badly? There are furries who would kill (figuratively, right?) to be involved in the storyboarding for that particular scene. I can get why they'd skip out on the bedroom eyes, but I hope whoever was in charge of that scene isn't getting fursuit heads in their bed.

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One is low status, the other is not. End of story. It's probably downstream of that.

When I heard this, I did feel an intuitive sense of disgust, but I had a difficult time justifying the feeling.

You may just share DFW's view of cruises?

I have a friend who, for his honeymoon and at his wife’s request, went on a very expensive Disney cruise to a Disney island. When I heard this, I did feel an intuitive sense of disgust, but I had a difficult time justifying the feeling.

From what I've heard about Disney cruises, they aren't that different from regular cruises. Yes, you can make the staff die a little inside by making them listen to your "complaint" about seeing a mouse in the restaurant for the thousandth tine. But other than that they are just regular cruises with extremely good customer service they charge a premium for. Don't compare them to Paris, compare them to a package holiday. Sometimes you just want to spend a week or two not worrying about anything.

I think for me a lot of it is that Disney is completely commodified commercial art. It’s rarely about just telling great stories or making unique and beautiful things. And their park and cruises are that but turned up to 11. It’s a simulation of real things dumbed down until even the dumbest and most easily offended are nodding along. A lot of franchise films and shows are like that, having long since lost whatever was real and true about them in favor of selling fan-bait and pumping out the next money grab.

Burning man may be the reserve of rich idiots, but it’s not fake, not dumbed down and you don’t exit through the gift shop. The Eiffel Tower is a real place in real France full of real French people. Yes there are tourists, but there are also locals who aren’t there for ambiance but instead because they actually live there. Much of the same can be said of theater especially local stuff, or cultural events and other historical places. There’s a difference between a place created as a simulation of reality and an actual reality. The French part of Epcot is not and cannot be like real France.

the greatest rides are still the original ones - It's a Small World, Space Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean

Man, different strokes for different folks, but I couldn't disagree more with this. I'll admit I appreciate the charm of the older stuff, and am also saddened by things like the franchise-ification, particularly at once-pure Epcot (Maelstrom being replaced by Frozen ride, The Living Seas becoming Finding Nemo, etc). But the folks at Disney can still engineer up a good ride, and things like Soarin, Avatar, Mission Space, and Toy Story Mania (aka the greatest ride at Disney) kind of blow those dark rides out of the water IMO, which are breathers from the Florida heat primarily, and forms of entertainment secondarily.

If I recall, Pirates of the Caribbean was it's own little culture war arena at one point, wherein they replaced the bride auction with with a girl-boss pirate.

The Snow White mine ride is excellent too, especially for kids who are just starting to ride "real" roller coasters

I think there’s a lot more leeway in women able to indulge in childish fantasy than there is for men. A man, obsessed to the same degree with male-coded versions of escapism (basically nerd and geek fandoms) are quickly shamed into hiding it from peers lest he be tainted with loser stink. If things were equal I suspect there are just as many men who would want to spend the same amounts of time, energy and money on their favorite escapist fandoms. There’s cons, obviously, but I’ve never known an adult male who talks openly in work or social environments about how he’s going to a con and has spent hours making an Ironman suit that cost him $100 (which is probably lowball compared to what is really spent on that stuff). Women get to openly indulge and most people wouldn’t think twice about a woman who has a shire to Mickey they way they’d double-take a light saber collection or a shrine to Spock.

Men seem to be much more culturally constrained in what they’re allowed to like and to what degree they’re allowed to do it.

The purchase of star wars and marvel closed the gender gap for Disney in this regard. Men obsess over getting a black lightsaber crystal and a cocktail at Mos Eisley.

I hate these IPs with a passion at this point. Having to grit my teeth and nod as my friends circle jerk about how great the hastily retconned "lore" is for SW makes me want to put a shotgun in my mouth.

I don't know, maybe (definitely) I hang out with mostly nerds, but from where I'm looking men seem less ashamed/self-conscious than ever to flaunt their geeky hobbies. Retro gaming setups, arcade machines, gaming computers and consoles, VR setups, etc... are proudly displayed in living rooms in a way that they wouldn't have been before, when you would only see a Super Nintendo or Playstation plugged in to the secondary basement TV only the kids use.

I grew up with videogames being a thing for boys and teenager boys that we were supposed to grow out of, and it seems men of my generation while growing up put their foot down and decided that no, videogames are not inherently more childish than watching TV shows and we have no reason to be ashamed of them.

And its not just gaming; I look at the younger generations, young men in their early 20s, and I don't think for instance being into anime is the 'red flag' for women that it was for my generation.

Man here.

A properly done Ironman suit would cost 2K easily, more if you're hardcore purist who wants fit, accuracy, and lighty up thingies that really drive the women wild. Poorly done unpainted knockoffs a few hundred bucks.

I've a Graflex 3-cell flash tube I bought in 2001 for about 150 bucks that, along with the bubble strip from an early 70s Exactra calculator I also acquired, now looks like this. though that link is not my photo. Total sunk cost about 250 bucks, worth about twice that or considerably more now were I to strike while the iron is hot. (It's not as hot as it used to be.) Which I won't.

I am far in the low ranks of true geekdom, but I am definitely in those ranks somewhere. You shall know me by my Follano stormtrooper armor, though that's a whole nother conversation.

By the mid-2000s, I had at least one friend with a Disney cultist family. Especially the mother. Their whole dynamic was really weird in hindsight, and it’s hard not to see the distilled consumerism as part and parcel.

Point is, I suspect there were rabid Disney moms in the decades before that.

Since I moved to Texas, I’ve been back to Disney exactly twice, both times for band events. It was alright. That’s with a per diem allowance and no desire for merch. I haven’t gone since I was paying my own way; if I’d been spending the kind of money it takes to get a family or even a couple through that gauntlet, I’d have hoped for a lot more magic.

(Except for expedition Everest, which is a great roller coaster and environment at any age. Fight me.)

How much of that is down to the park, and how much on my own age? Kids definitely get something very different out of it than their parents. The money, of course, but also the situational awareness and the suspension of disbelief. To be a Disney mom, you’ve got to stay under.

For more on the philosophy of Disney as a whole-family park, I recommend Defunctland’s video on a certain non-Disney dark ride. No, seriously. The philosophy behind Dreamworld Australia, discussed in the first few minutes of the video, perfectly captures how a Disney is supposed to work. And the rest of the video explains how it gets distorted beyond imagining.

I recommend Defunctland’s video on a certain non-Disney dark ride.

When the narrator started talking about the Wiggles I had to check the Wikipedia to make sure I wasn't watching a mockumentary. Turns out, Australia is stranger than I could've imagined.

Echoing @OracleOutlook, I will say the Japanese Tokyo Disneyland /Disneysea experience is one of perfect Baudrillard hyperreality--clean, well-swept, devoid of stench, and as ordered as a massively crowded theme park can probably be. Disney Sea is distinct as its own (albeit adjacent) park with its own ticket, in which alcohol may be served--and is, at pretty steep prices. Still from experience no beer is too expensive after a day of hustling around watching Mickey parades and making sure you're at the line at the right time because you bought that one ticket three hours ago that says you can line up at point X.

I've always wanted to go to that Florida Star Wars exhibit (the last time I was at Disney World was pre-Epcot, if that tells you anything). Just to see that Millennium Falcon. My own boys, alas, are aging somewhat out of the age of wonder (I am not certain I ever have) and the days when we took them in costume around Halloween to TDL are behind us (older boy was Luke Skywalker, younger Darth Vader without mask--masks on patrons aren't allowed, and only Disney character costumes, and these only at certain times of the year).

I will note that I don't remember seeing many middle-aged women in Mickey ears, but high school and twenty somethings by the bargeful. The Japanese female obsession with Disney is real. I try hard not to armchair analyze it. But I suspect it has to do with the usual shutting out the harsher realities of growing up. I once dated a girl (well, young woman, she would've been around 27, a flight attendant then) who related to me a story of how when she was at TDL "Mickey" hugged her and she cried. "But why cry?" I remember asking, and her response put paid whatever dinner it was I had bought that night: "Because I knew he would never hurt me."

I was apparently unable to match Mickey and I remember the night of our inevitable breakup as she stood there telling me she was fine just having sex, she didn't mind anything, she just didn't want to be alone--and I, of course, left her alone. At that exact moment the twin towers were coming down, September 11, 2001. Vibrates in the memory. Music, when soft voices die, etc.

It's interesting to read other women who aren't Japanese have this same preoccupation with Disney. A deep well, no doubt.

Edited for typos

My life as someone else's flashback. Intriguing.

I've never been to Japan, but I have heard that their Disney parks still have the magic. Clean, impeccable service, superior rides, and marvelous theming. It is run by a Japanese organization, The Oriental Land Company, which insulates it from a lot of the poor decisions made by Disney corp.

Been playing the Divide and Conquer Medieval Total War II mod (https://www.moddb.com/mods/divide-and-conquer) and it is just spectacular. Full conversion mod that starts a few decades before the War of the Ring, has a ton of playable civs both lore accurate and a bit of a stretch, but it's just tremendous fun to charge your Dol Amroth Knights into Haradrim or mow down Goblins with your Elven archers.

And the first time Mumakil appeared on a battle map was legitimately a top 3 gaming moment of all time for me. Just complete shock and awe.

Reminded me of the claim that the true spiritual successor to Fallout: New Vegas is some insane Hearts of Iron mod about uniting post-apocalyptic America.

I’ve been playing that religiously over the last week or so. My flair comes from a beautiful moment in the Texas Brotherhood of Steel campaign. After wiping out several bayou and biker gangs, the Brotherhood now borders a community of New Orleans lawmen. But in recent years, the latter has grown corrupt and extorts the people they once protected. The Brotherhood isn’t supposed to be here to nation-build, but we’ve stumbled into this mess, and we’re not going to stand for these second-rate gangbangers. Hence the only available response to this event: a button that declares war, labeled “Texas is freedom land.”

It’s actually only the second best moment in the Texas campaign. If you succeed in uniting the civilizations of the region and forming a new provisional Texas republic, you get a triumphant pop up as “Yellow Rose of Texas” starts to play. For the entire fucking map. And then you get to start drafting a constitution for your fledgling state. It was incredible.

While the mod has predictable issues with polish, it’s unbelievably vast, nails the tone, and brings the style and philosophy of the wasteland into a new genre. I often can’t tell whether a story or faction is canon or original. So yes, a spiritual successor indeed.

Screw it, I'm buying it. You don't need any DLCs for the mod, right?

Together For Victory (which is the first dlc I think), adds the Spearhead button, better lend lease, tech sharing and autonomy system.

Death or Dishonour adds equipment conversion and licensing.

Waking the Tiger, which is the first big DLC adds General Traits and Abilities, decisions, ability to send attaches and sending Air volunteers.

Man the Guns adds ship designing, admiral traits and abilities, Governments in exile, convoy route controlling, naval mines and Amphibious landing vehicles.

La Resistance adds espionage, collaboration governments, code cracking, and recon units like scout planes.

Battle for the Bosphorus adds nothing in terms of gameplay mechanics.

No Step back adds tank designing, railway guns, Scorched Earth tactics, floating harbors, special supply units, army traits, officer corps.

Okay. Is there really no spying in the base game if you don't pay €10 to Paradox ?

Once more I'm in awe of Paradox business model. Make a bare bones game and milk the customers via a thousand cut DLCs.

Nice!

Nope, no DLCs required. The only reason I got into this game was cause of a free-to-keep promotion, and I probably had 100 hours in before I bothered to look at DLC. Or even install mods, really. It's not like Total War DLC where the enemy factions will use all this stuff against you. It just won't be in your playthroughs. Mods adapt accordingly, somehow.

Espionage isn't in the base game. Intelligence is, in the form of tech progression, radar coverage, and the usual strategy-game elements like fog of war. If you want to send out Mata Hari to blow up supply depots, I guess you need the DLC, but I can't say for sure, since I never bothered to get it. To this day I only have Man the Guns (because I like botes) and Waking the Tiger (since it adds some really important alt-history options).

So it is peak Paradox bullshit, but I also think there's more than enough to chew on for a new player.

Speaking of which--normally I'd recommend playing some minor third-world power. WWII is too much to handle at first. Watch it unfold as you get a feel for development, recruitment and the interface. Maybe fight your Middle East or South American neighbors, in which case you'll also learn a lot about the supply system.

But if you're diving right in to Old World Blues, that kind of solves itself. The mod effectively throws quests at you, and they'll usually give you a natural route to fighting your neighbors instead of the planet. Just don't play the NCR or Caesar's Legion your first time around.

Good luck!

So there's no way to steal tech in the mod if you don't have the DLC?

So it is peak Paradox bullshit, but I also think there's more than enough to chew on for a new player.

Yeah, these games seem fairly complex, but I feel like a lot of the complexity is not that deep. Fiddling around with modifiers.

But I want a Fallout fix too and Todd Howard is not going to deliver, so..

Correct on all counts.

Have you ever gnashed your teeth at the choice of an author to use " – " rather than "—", "he" rather than "they", or a semicolon list within a single paragraph rather than a bullet list comprising multiple paragraphs? Well, gnash no more! Never forget that nothing can stop you from ripping that author's """copyright-protected""" """intellectual property""" out of the webpage or the paper page on which it sits, and forcibly remaking it to suit your fancy. Word, LaTeX, Notepad++—there are many ways to fuck the text into submission and ejaculate your grammatical and orthographical preferences all over its fertile womb. Just Do It!

If only I had an em dash key on my keyboard - then I might use it!

In HTML, and by extension in Markdown, "& m d a s h ;" (without the extra spaces—the code element doesn't work properly on this website) → "—". XHTML also allows you to define your own custom references to special characters (or even to sequences of characters) at the top of the file.

Outside of HTML, in Windows you can copy-and-paste special characters out of the built-in but somewhat subpar Character Map application, or out of a more complete piece of software like BabelMap. (I don't know what analogous options Linux and MacOS have.)

@Tyre_Inflator

I don't know what analogous options Linux and MacOS have.

At least with a standard MacOS keyboard setup, "option" key + "-" gives you en dash: –, and "shift"+"option"+"-" gives you em dash: —.

Yeah, how are we supposed to even use that character without memorizing 4 digit numpad codes that never seem to work for some reason?

Ew.

This most recently happened to me with Annals of a Fortress, a book which is certainly out of copyright. Unfortunately, my text editor refused to parse the archaic format of ink-on-paper, leaving me ravished by the author’s lust for semicolons.

As I said: rip the text out of the page! Just retype the whole thing in your text editor of choice. People do stuff of this nature all the time.

Too many useless fucking things to remember

My cars media system has the usual next, previous, pause and play buttons for audio. One annoying quirk is that when the track reaches the end of the Spotify playlist, I need to press the "next" button to play the next (first) song in the playlist. And this annoys me much more than it should. I shouldn't have to devote precious brain space for this specific fact of the universe. Why is my media system the only piece of shit in the world that has this unique quirk.

And this specific thing stood out to me because I'm a programmer. I use more than a handful of developer tools daily. Datadog, Sentry, New Relic, Grafana, BI tools, Google analytics, Github, vscode, FUCK OFF. If I want search for something I also need to learn about the quirks of how to search on that platform. Yes plaintext search works, but regex and wildcard is what actually makes search any good. So some of these platforms support regex, some use common sense wildcards, some have their own wildcards, etc. And you need to devote some cache in your brain to remember all these so you don't fumble your first attempt by trying to use the wrong feature in the wrong tool. WHY? Why can't we have a universal text search syntax?

It's not that I lack the real estate for all this useless shit. It's the opportunity cost. Here's an example of what I don't think is useless.

The fact that text embeddings exist at all, and that they have the semantics embedded in them as a list of numbers, and given that you can do vector operations on them, is extremely useful knowledge. I recently used text embeddings to solve a problem that was just given up on after many attempts by engineers in my company before me. And this solution is better and orders of magnitude cheaper.

I want to store more information about things like text embeddings as opposed to which search syntax works on sentry and doesn't work on datadog or the fact that I have to press next on car A's media player and not on car B's.

But it seems to me so much of being a (junior) engineer is accumulating the first kind of knowledge. And so many confuse it for the useful second kind of knowledge. I wish we spent more time minimizing the amount of the first kind of knowledge required to operate in the world (of tech?).

Yes, if we can totally simplify, or standardize or even better get rid of the need for the first kind of knowledge, many people would have to give up their "artisan" or "craftsman" or "engineer" badges. But.. who cares? To quote one of the best engineers of all time;

"Software is a just a tool to help accomplish something for people - many programmers never understood that. Keep your eyes on the delivered value, and don't over focus on the specifics of the tools" - John Carmack.

It just seems stupid that I remember several hundred builtin function names for each of ten different programming languages that do mostly, but not quite, the same thing. push, add, append, insert, push_back. what's the difference between unwrap_or vs unwrap_or_else? It isn't really a problem, because I can comfortably remember them, but you're right about the hidden opportunity cost. There's no obvious better alternative, they all evolved independently and often really do have to many different things, but still.

The things I really despise are domain-specific languages where you have to remember an entire new set of 250 terms and relationships. Why should anyone have ever learned the specifics of elisp or vimscript, or even lua?

AI-generated images are here - and they're awful.

Dall-E 3 seems to have crossed the line into "good-enough" territory that many smaller websites are now using AI-generated images. It seems, unfortunately, that Dall-E 3 has a style. And that style is awful. The scenes are always far too busy, everything is cartoony, and the colors are oversaturated.

It's the new Corporate Memphis.

It also makes me feel super racist that I have to constantly tell it to draw white people since it has an even looser grip on historical accuracy then Bridgerton.

Still way better than corporate memphis, which signifies defiance to reality as opposed to being cheap. Deliberately inhuman proportions as opposed to accidentally missing fingers.

AI has much more variety anyway, you can just dump 3 or 4 artists names in and get a very different result, likewise with different models.

Try running Stable Diffusion. It's open source and you can find a specifically-trained model for whatever you want. If you can't run it locally, you can find a million services online that can do it for you. You don't need to deal with content restrictions or it adding diversity to all of your prompts. I use a site called NovelAI, which runs its own version of SD trained off of an anime booru. They recently put out a new version of the image gen and it's really good. The progress made since just the last year is astounding.

We could have easily been in the timeline where the big three image diffusion models (Dall E, Stable Diffusion, and Midjourney) all kept it locked down, but since one of them broke ranks and made it open source, it's opened up a world of potential for everyone to use image generation how they want.

Yeah, they're kind of shit and samey. You start to recognise everything about them, the way they're composed, how humans and animals look, the lighting, the contrast, which facial expressions they use etc.

That said, Corporate Memphis and generic stock photos were at least as bad or worse, and this tech seems to be rapidly improving. Maybe in a few years we'll actually have something spectacular and truly democratise visual art generation. We're almost there.

Maybe in a few years we'll actually have something spectacular and truly democratise visual art generation. We're almost there.

I think so. Better speed will handle much of it. Perhaps the image gen will make 1000 images and then an adversarial AI will choose the best 10. Then the human can pick one and use text prompting to refine it easily.

"Move the teddy bear a little to the left"

"Change the font size to be a little bigger"

"Can you make it a little more punk rock".

Etc...

I think we're about 2-3 years out.

So you're using them enough that you have to "constantly" correct historical ethnic choices, but also calling them "awful?" If an artist was awful, I would stop asking them for new art and go to someone else. Is your job forcing you to use Dall-e 3 specifically or something? What kind of image/material are you using it for?

I don't have a subscription to GPT 4, so am unable to test this, but the previous iteration allowed users to mention styles that they want it to emulate, and there isn't necessarily an advantage to just leaving it at its default style. If it's oversaturated, you can probably request a limited palette? I tried asking Dall e 2 for a painting with a zorn palette, and it used too much blue (zorn replaces blue with black as a primary), but maybe GPT could help interpret that kind of thing (or I could try spelling out what I mean more clearly?).

I had heard that people have been making add-ons for Stable Diffusion that point it toward specific styles, so that might be worth looking into as well.

Can't beat the cost and convenience for a good-enough image!

I'm sure we'll get to a spot in 2 or 3 years where this gets a lot better. I do have Stable Diffusion but it's slow and hard to wrestle with. I do use Dall-E 3 for work but it's not a large part of what I do. Let's say I generate 2-3 images a day.

My whine here is specifically about the stylistical awfulness of Dall-E 3 images which I now see cropping up everywhere. Prompt-hacking doesn't work. I try stuff like this: "Simple, not complex, no extra characters, restrained, not saturated", but it doesn't seem to really give me what I want.

which I now see cropping up everywhere

I haven't noticed it -- do you have an example?

"Simple, not complex, no extra characters, restrained, not saturated"

Maybe it has trouble with negatives? I wonder if it would respond to directions about specific color palettes (yellow ochre, Paynes grey, cadmium red?), where to place the focal point, or name dropping Rembrandt?

I haven't noticed it -- do you have an example?

Sure. Here are a some examples from a blog that was posted to the slatestarcodex subreddit.

1, 2, 3

Once you recognize the "style" you see it everywhere. The main thing is that they are just way too busy.

Huh. I could see how you wouldn't prefer that style, but also feel like the main problem is not so much that the image generator did a bad job, as that the concepts simply aren't great, and hardly anyone would do much better. And those who could do better are engaged in more upscale projects to begin with.

There seems to be a rationalist market, and a market by definition has a lot of booths at it, so it drew a lot of booths, and put in a vanishing point that really emphasizes how large the market is. Makes sense, given the concept, I'm unsure what an excellent graphic designer would do with it. Doesn't look oversaturated? Markets are known for having a lot of bright colors to entice customers, but maybe the sun shouldn't be that low? Is sunset part of the concept, like the sun is setting on the free exchange of ideas or something? It's clearly still not great at making signs with words on them, but is visibly improving from last year.

A guy with a lot of books and papers. I assume the room cluttered with papers and the clock are part of the concept, and that they asked for pen and ink? Clearly not oversaturated. If the clock isn't important, it doesn't belong there. If the prompt didn't include "an office cluttered with papers," then that's weird.

Comic. Weird feet and flags in the last frame. It looks like it becoming increasingly chaotic and cluttered is, again, part of the concept? If not, that's an odd progression. It looks like print comics were included as a style reference, so the coloring is to be expected. There are some distracting splashes of red in the background, especially on the second panel, I doubt a human would do that, or the implication in the second panel that now there's another floor desk under the man's desk. The first panel has a visible dot gradient, like a metal plate where the gradient was burned in with resin and acid -- or more like a cross between that and a fine hatch. It's kind of funny that it's trying to emulate plate printed comics in that one instance, but otherwise looks more like a vector graphic, but, eh, I guess I don't expect it to have a model of what physical processes cause what effects. The hands and facial expressions are pretty good. But, also, the concept itself looks even more cliche than the art.

I invite you to show me anything that makes all these images I've generated samey.

You're prompting it wrong.

/images/17020575509717166.webp

/images/17020575514449952.webp

/images/1702057552012355.webp

Common link is they are all have far too many unnecessary elements that detract from the image. I will grant that only image #2 looks like a 100% match for the Dall-E 3 archetype.

What do you mean by "unnecessary things"?

They're precisely what I asked for, within the limits of my prompting and the model. Without knowing the prompts, I have no idea what you think they're missing.

At the very least the last one is a minimal brutalist logo for a PMC, I can hardly imagine what could be less so.

More comments

Isn't it amazing that DALL-E 3 has prompts? Those little text input boxes where you can specify the styles and content, be it in the style of video game concept art, minimalism, expressionism, and just about anything you can think of?

PEBKAC right here. I'm not going to defend their approach to diversity being prompt injection of random diverse ethnicities and genders.

At any rate, they've been here for more than a year, welcome to 2023, just about in time to meet 2024.

Was the sarcasm really necessary?

Not strictly, but I am still immensely frustrated by claims that AIs, be they LLMs or image generators, have intransigent styles that can't be modified by something as simple as telling it to.

Sometimes the problem does exist between the keyboard and chair, and here it certainly does.

At any rate, if a new piece of technology comes out and doesn't do exactly what I want, my first instinct is to look for a solution, and it clearly hasn't been done to any reasonable degree, because otherwise there wouldn't remain a problem in need of solving.

Not strictly, but I am still immensely frustrated by claims that AIs, be they LLMs or image generators, have intransigent styles that can't be modified by something as simple as telling it to.

You're not wrong, but really, throwing "PEBKAC" at someone is not helpful and is unnecessarily antagonistic.

Have you been living in a cave? These generative AI sucks posts are soo tiring.

Ai generated images have been "here" for a year and more, since DALLE2 and then stable diffusion.

There are also many open source stable diffusion checkpoints out there that produce photorealistic images.

Also they might "suck" now, but just extrapolate the trend and honestly ask yourself for how much longer it will be that way.

I will also be underwater if the tide keeps coming in...

And we will all be Chinese Indian Nigerian by 2050. What's your point?

"just extrapolate the trend" is not the slightest bit convincing.

How would you start learning Chinese? Has anyone here done it? I'll probably take a class, but I'd also like some digital tools for self-guided learning.

I downloaded Duolingo and, hoo-boy, has that app gone downhill. It's essentially impossible to use without paying for premium version now. Even when they're not shoving ads down your throat, the animations and interstitials are over-the-top annoying.

I learned for 5 years in a formal setting and was once fluent enough that I spoke it all day long. I wouldn't learn it, it's been an almost completely useless skill. If you really must:

  1. Anki decks for memorization. Way back when, I hand-made decks of flashcards. I made several thousands.
  2. Handheld whiteboard for character writing practice. I spent probably 30-60 minutes a day just repetitively writing and erasing.
  3. Textbooks. The most popular ones out there will probably work fine for beginners.
  4. Chinesepod101(?) used to be good for listening. You could also look up HSK study materials for the lower levels.
  5. Find a speaking buddy, preferably from somewhere with a neutral accent (northern or eastern China). Pronunciation is initially very difficult and the grammar is also not always intuitive once you get out of the beginner phase. Also, textbook language and spoken language are quite different.

Again, I recommend against this unless you're just trying to learn a bit to speak at parties for fun or something. The amount of effort required massively outweighs the value you'd get, and I say this as a former sinophile who won awards in Chinese speech contests and wrote a thesis on the original text of a well-known ancient Chinese philosophical text.

Handheld whiteboard for character writing practice. I spent probably 30-60 minutes a day just repetitively writing and erasing.

I'd advise against this part, it's a whole lot of effort for very little gain. You'll hardly ever need to write characters by hand. 99%+ of the time you'll be typing instead which is based on pinyin - you just enter Latin letters and choose the right characters from a list based on the sound.

Much easier to just learn the basics of how stroke order works and then focus on reading and typing. Copy the characters from your phone on the rare occasions that you have to write anything on paper.

"Former sinophile" sounds like there's a story behind it, and not just "well I thought their third album was a derivative rehash and the scene was getting filled with hipsters." Do you mind talking about it?

Sure, happy to share anything without doxxing myself. The long and short of it is that I fell in love with Chinese history and language, studied it in college, spent some time living over there, ended up repulsed by the deracinated "New China" that has almost no culture continuity with pre-Communist China, as well as the amorality of the average middle class Chinese person. It's a really bleak society with a really bleak culture amongst really bleak surroundings. It has very little to recommend it IMO, whatever you hope to get out of China, you can get out of other places with substantially less risk to your sanity/safety/physical health.

ETA: "Ways That Are Dark," for all its many faults, gives an accurate account of the core flaws of China. It's not all literally true, but it's truthy, stuff like that has happened and still does happen in some form. So I suppose some of these issues had existed prior to the revolution.

Duolingo sucks, I've been told by a relative who went from zero to reading difficult Italian literature in two years of self-study. (I'm not sure what's better, he says it lacks context and that there are better apps)

How would you start learning Chinese? Has anyone here done it?

I wouldn't. It's their planet, if they want to run it, the least they can do is learn some native languages.

Obligatory admonition from 4chan on why you shouldn't learn Mandarin for professional reasons.

While I generally frown on 4chan texts other than art, this one is too full of little details and too well-written to be just a psyop. Someone's sincere regrets and desperation. Entire thread.

I did some work with a textbook ~20 years ago, but never got very good and basically forgot everything.

What really helped me was working through the Spoonfed Chinese Anki deck. It's a deck of several thousand sentences, with cards having Chinese on one side and English on the other side. I did both Chinese to English, as well as Chinese to English to help with production.

It also has audio recordings of the sentences. What I did was listen and repeat as many times as it took me to pronounce a sentence correctly from memory at natural speed before moving on to the next card. This is key, IMO. Early on I would often have to repeat longer sentences 10-20 times to get it right.

I used the Chinese Grammar Wiki to figure out grammatical patterns I didn't understand.

This made me really good at pronunciation and speaking at a natural speed. Unfortunately, it didn't help much with listening. I'm working on that now with podcasts while walking to/from work. I'm going with 大鵬說中文, but it's not suitable for total beginners. I've heard good things about ChinesePod, which covers a broader range of ability levels.

Also, make sure you understand, in terms of where you need to be placing your tongue, how to pronounce the phonemes not used in English. X, j, and q are kind of like English sh, j, and ch, but they're pronounced with the tip of your tongue down below your lower incisors. Zh, ch, and sh are like English j, ch, and sh, but with the tip of the tongue curled slightly upwards. R has extensive regional variation, so just try to imitate it and it will probably be close enough.

Oh, also it helps if you spend a decade learning Japanese first, but not as much as you might think.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/
Probably start there. I don't know Chinese and have never made an earnest attempt at learning it. Depending on how distracted you are on your computer (or mobile) over several hours, get an intro to Chinese physical book from your local library and start using that. If there are several, look online and see if one has free premade flashcards for mobile use. Perhaps also make physical flashcards, because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitner_system is a good way to get results via spaced repetition. Since it will be a slow buildup to learning all the characters, https://www.fluentu.com/blog/chinese/pinyin-subtitles/ may be a good idea for watching Chinese language entertainment.

YMMV, but from the maybe two people I know who have researched it and tried both, hellochinese is probably slightly better than duolingo for Chinese.

I came here to add the same, although you will also need to pay for hellochinese

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't mind paying, but Duolingo seems to have a lot of dark patterns which makes me reluctant to give them my money.

Lol this is a Twitter meme (and secondly also related to some weird infighting on the Twitter right about video games and GTA in particular).

Why'd you not think it's a joke ? Keith Woods is a thoroughly disreputable far-right influencer who's suspected of being owned by the glowies so much of the sensible center / far right distrusts him.. He pushed the nonsense Kanye West candidacy, alongside Nick 'Catboy Fed' Fuentes, he of the 'screwing women is gay' fame.

Why'd Keith Woods be in a computer game produced by woke capital ?

Going to hijack this cuz GTA6. But I am really not looking forward to GTA6 as much as I should as someone who spent monts and years of his childhood on vice city and san andreas and gta 4... The trailer has this underlying note of taking itself too seriously and being just too sincere for a GTA game, i.e the exact opposite of why GTA games are so coveted.

I will be very surprised if it isn't a wokefest .

Not every game trailer makes me say, "Jesus Christ!", but this did. I hope they can nail the endgame.

Is this for real? Makes me want to upturn tables at the virtual tabernacle.

Chase traders out of the temple: 0/9

Great, another walking (on water) sim.

It's a good thing that game dev has been so democratized, but this thing is so painfully earnest, but then again who else would make this as a passion (of the Christ) project?

Jesus..

I wish we lived in a world where we could have the Mohammad DLC of this game. It would make a hell of a slasher.

I'd prefer an Old Testament expansion pack you know, the graphics are way better as is the open world, speedruns for getting out of the desert in a week as opposed to 40 years would be cool to watch next to the watch paint dry stream.

The foreskin collection from corpses QTE gameplay would be top tier! Don't ask the top of what.

Alas, it will be overshadowed by the popularity of the VR OnanSim DLC.

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