ulyssessword
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User ID: 308
ulyssessword
21hr ago
Did I breach an obligation to A by these actions?
That doesn't depend on either freedom of speech or Open Ideas.
That sounds like a non-answer, but it helps narrow your opinion down a lot: Your idea of Freedom of Speech and Open Ideas is constrained to a narrow field (everywhere except interpersonal relationships?). I've seen it linked to fully-general ideas of tolerance and non-judgment before, which do apply to things as simple as friendships.
ulyssessword
1d ago
Let's try a (maximally cynical) example out for size.
It is the year 2003, and you have been selected to lead Operation Get Iraqi Oil. Do you nuke the country into a glassy plain? I suspect that would make it harder to get Iraqi oil than staging an invasion and military occupation, but I'm curious what you think.
ulyssessword
2d ago
I'm with you. Sometimes people might just be actively working to corrupt your data, and the ease and proportion of fraudsters matters. It took a lot of effort to create the hoax, and I suspect that a large fraction of her source material is genuine and mostly-accurate (accounting for sensationalism). Given that she wasn't looking for super-rare niche events, that suggests that most of her stories were true.
If they wanted to show she was spreading fake news, then it would have been much more effective if they found organic false stories instead. Heck, it would've been much more effective (but very dishonest) if they didn't advertise how much work it took to create one fake story.
ulyssessword
2d ago
- Create an ultraprogressive story out of thin air (furry teachers spreading it to children, IIRC)
- Pitch the story to LibsOfTikTok as if it was a real example of leftwing overreach.
- Wait for the lie to be amplified and spread.
- Expose that LibsOfTikTok spread a lie, and therefore is not up to journalistic standards.
- Ignore the fact that they helped create that lie, but still claim journalistic standards.
ulyssessword
2d ago
The longer the gay acronym, the leftier it is. "LGBT" is table stakes at a score of 4, "LGBTQ" is a bit more progressive and scores 5, and the CBC uses "2SLGBTQIA+" for a score of 10, with bonus indigenous points for putting two-spirited people first. "LGB" is downright rightwing at 3 points.
ulyssessword
7d ago
Were any of those assault victims targeted for their work, or was it simply because the perpetrators didn't want to get arrested? The July 4 ambush, the recent convoy attack, and the firebombing in LA all involve the perpetrators seeking out ICE and attacking them. The traffic-stops-turned-fights later in the linked article feel like a more typical story of assault on an officer.
Protecting your identity protects you from people who want to track you down and kill you. It won't help you against people who would rather not go to jail right now. I don't think those two categories of assaults are evenly split between ICE and regular police officers.
Do you know if there are a couple hundred examples of people going out of their way to attack police officers in that 79k, or are they ~all done by people fighting whoever happens to be right in front of them?
ulyssessword
7d ago
Police officers are, I imagine, more likely to be targeted for their work than ICE agents are, and police officers do not wear masks.
I've heard of two recent attacks on ICE, for a group of 6500 agents. There are about 850k police officers in the US, and I suppose there might have been 260 attacks on police officers that I haven't heard of in the same period, but that seems really high.
Even aside from those numbers, I'd suspect that ICE gets all the generic "fuck the police" in addition to the ICE-specific hate.
ulyssessword
8d ago
I'm told by reputable posters he's been a couple months from Bidening out for almost a decade.
link?
ulyssessword
9d ago
Reasonably limited, like "we should only go after people who are inciting violence", but that's not representative of what's actually happened (i.e. the Right certainly hasn't limited itself to just that); or
Make it one or two (but not 20 or 30) steps broader, and that's pretty much it. I haven't seen the Right get anyone fired for cracking their knuckles, or because a relative used a slur, or they donated to a currently-unfavored cause that Obama supported at the time (maybe flip that one), or they wore a shirt with anime characters on it.
I don't think I stuck to your four-year window, but yes, it is different. I'm not arguing against Right-wing cancel culture because it's mild enough to ignore, unlike the Left-wing version.
EDIT: actually, I'm going to generalize this a bit: "Science Sandbox" is a unique video game genre. Kerbal Space Program is the obvious one, but it also works for the soft sciences, as below.
It would be really difficult to do something like "The Interstate Anarchy model of international relations is true. Discover (or blindly follow) the constraints this places on a country and win, or miss (or defy) those constraints and lose.", as described in the Teaching Paradox series of blog posts.
ulyssessword
13d ago
We've been there since the early 2000s, with "Clown nose on; clown nose off."
ulyssessword
13d ago
Yes, you did stop too soon, actually
Let me repeat myself: I watched the clip until he started talking about the Emmys. I recognize everything you're talking about, and disagree with your characterization of it.
If you want to use a "comedy" defense, then you have to actually do comedy. That was just an isolated insult slotted into position. You will never have the respect of your peers, and your appearance frightens children. He didn't need to cite the gold-standard evidence. Heck, he didn't even need to be correct. All he needed to do was make a joke with it.
Without that connection, it's just an incredibly crass insult that's (unsuccessfully for me; successfully for you) taking cover from the format.
That concludes my counterargument where everything I said is tied together into the coherent thesis that you have misinterpreted Kimmel's monologue. I'm sure that you won't find any insults masquerading as arguments because every sentence is in its proper place.
(from @Dean below)
The distinction @ulyssessword is asking is clearer if you have a more obvious 2-part joke structure, and then place something else inside that structural.
A two-part would be best, but I'm not that strict. It can be ironic, hyperbolic, or any other way to use it.
ulyssessword
13d ago
The quote above is the pre-amble for the actual "joke"
How is it connected? I watched the clip until he started talking about the Emmys, and didn't notice anything that built off of that supposed setup. Let's go line-by-line:
- We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang Completely generic
- desperately trying to characterize (see below)
- this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk Yup, that's the topic.
- as anything other than one of them (continued from above) Never mentioned, referred to, reflected on, or used in any way. Not by Trump or by anyone else.
- and doing everything they can to score political points from it No, Trump was deflecting instead of focusing on it. Kimmel didn't focus on the contrast between his (unsupported) claim and Trumps statements or do anything else with the mismatch. Trump was even in "major change the subject mode". MTG did a bit, but that's all that was covered.
How is "desperately trying to characterize [him] as anything other than one of them" supposed to be the preamble for a joke? Did I simply stop watching too soon?
ulyssessword
14d ago
A comic is obligated to be aware of how it's related to truth, and to manage that relationship. For example:
(The monologue, for reference)
- "This deal is very important, because TikTok is his son, Don Jr.'s, only friend." It's exploiting the shock value of the falsehood as the punchline of a joke.
- Larry Ellison does not have a plan to kill James Bond. Again, the punchline of a joke.
- "Trump has entered into the fourth stage of grief: Construction". The fourth stage is depression, not construction. Also, Trump doesn't appear to be grieving. It is a blatantly false statement, but it's unobjectionable because of what its relationship with truth is: It's pointing out a missing mood from the person who decided to fly all the flags at half mast.
- "By the time [Trump]'s out of office, the White House will have slot machines and a waterslide." I'd take that bet, but for some odd reason I doubt if Kimmel would. It's a hyperbolic reference to the construction Trump talked about.
His references to MAGA denials were during the setup phase (when the information is usually supposed to be true, to serve as contrast to a false punchline), and he didn't use it to do anything before switching to talking about the Emmys.
I've said it before, but Bablyon Bee has a good relationship with the truth. They earn their moniker of "Fake News You Can Trust", and looking at the current front page, we have (complete listing):
- funny/false arguments supporting a true conclusion
- obvious hyperbole that mirrors the truth
- One true event, with perfectly-backwards reasoning that mirrors the event's
- 100% truth, with funny formatting
- exaggeration of a call to action (not fact based)
Outside of the front page, good examples include:
ulyssessword
15d ago
I thought progressives wanted to reach out to men more?
Wanting to achieve a goal and wanting to take actions that help you achieve that goal are two different things. For example, someone might want to save money, but they don't want to reduce any expenses or increase their income. It's recursive too: they may want to reduce their "partying" expenses, but not cut back on how much they spend each time or how many parties they attend.
Wanting to reach out to men, then spreading divisive, negative rhetoric about them is nothing special.
ulyssessword
15d ago
Have you read uncleftish beholding?
ulyssessword
15d ago
Thanks, that probably would've stuck in my mind without your correction.
About 4%, no?
No.
There aren't actually people who are 18008765309 feet tall that you can contact by dialing 5'10" on your phone. There are people who will cheer at a completely unrelated car chase the moment news of his death breaks, but nowhere near 4%. EDIT: There are truly innocent people that have solid evidence against them (similar to what TMZ claimed), but nowhere near 4%.
Rare events are rare. Data entry errors are common. "several people on a balcony cheering" are not data entry errors.
ulyssessword
15d ago
My first thought: "aha! I know how to find that!"
Say what you will about AIs, they're the only thing that gets close to solving Russell's Teapot.
ulyssessword
16d ago
My search only found one related tweet.
I don't think it counts, but it wasn't (necessarily) made up from whole cloth by your friend.
ulyssessword
16d ago
one slot is all but reserved for the pocket watch that stops time when you open inventory.
My pet peeve: degraded-by-default UIs that cost in-game resources (often substantial amounts of them) to partially fix. Most recently, I could spend a perk point on zooming out farther in Star Valor (top-down spaceship game) so I didn't get sniped from off the screen, and install an armor module in Outer Wilds that highlights interactive objects at a longer range so I can tell them apart from decorative objects.
My other pet peeve: High-speed menu navigation as a mandatory minigame.
ulyssessword
16d ago
What better evidence could there be than him and his defense literally saying it?
Do you think the defendant in a criminal trial and his attorney are honest and forthright neutral truthseekers? I don't, so I don't rate that evidence very highly.
In fact here's something interesting, I asked chatgpt to run some numbers. "Per participant, was Jan 6th or BLM more violent towards cops?"
That reminds me of Contra Grant on Exaggerated differences:
Suppose I wanted to convince you that men and women had physically identical bodies. I run studies on things like number of arms, number of kidneys, size of the pancreas, caliber of the aorta, whether the brain is in the head or the chest, et cetera. 90% of these come back identical – in fact, the only ones that don’t are a few outliers like “breast size” or “number of penises”. I conclude that men and women are mostly physically similar. I can even make a statistic like “men and women are physically the same in 78% of traits”.
Add a ton of noise that overwhelms a valid signal, then declare that the noise is meaningful. I simply don't care about the BLM protests that were (actually, not "mostly") peaceful, so I wouldn't add them to the denominator.
ulyssessword
16d ago
P.S. has anyone else noticed this new “lawmaker” noun?
See Google Trends. I hadn't noticed this month's spike, so I'll say no.
I've seen it used as a generic term for Senator, Member of Parliament, Member of the Legislative Assembly, City Councillor, and various foreign equivalents for at least a few years now, and didn't notice anything odd about it.
It was "Cancel Culture is out of control" when (as found downthread (news article)) someone got their sponsorship cancelled for a different person's offensive speech before they were born.
This is Cancel Culture under control. It's entered the range where I can see valid arguments for both sides and the relevant tradeoffs. I still want even less of it, but having social policies/practices that are a bit off from with my desires is normal so it's not worth highlighting anymore.
(emphasis added)
I think you're confused here.
Mistake theorists believe that everyone shares the same goals, and free speech is a useful tool for finding the best solutions. They are interested in free speech because of that.
Conflict theorists believe that various groups want to promote their own interests to the exclusion of others, and free speech is giving weapons to the enemy. They are not interested in free speech because of that.
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