SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
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User ID: 853
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
1d ago
Who cares? The past is the past, the present is more important.
I don't necessarily think "he who controls the past controls the present, he who controls the present controls the future" is a hard and fast rule, but a lot of people care about that thing that happened 80 years ago. Look at OP, he cares so much he is on guard for anybody who doesn't even pay homage to it correctly. There is a growing body of censorship laws in Europe, and censorship of Holocaust Revisionism was and continues to be a top priority of the usual suspect lobbying for internet censorship. These groups themselves regard Holocaust Denial as a huge threat which would have catastrophic consequences if it proliferated.
So the "Who cares?" thing just doesn't do it for me because clearly people care about it very much. Everyone does. Denying the existence of gas chambers disguised as shower rooms is one of the biggest possible taboos in this day in age.
There are a lot of things that happened in the past which have absolutely no salience in the United States today, like the Holodomar. The Holocaust is important because it's a present-day mythology with a lot of political and cultural power.
Revisionism is a historical critique, which means it focuses on a lot of minutiae such as documentary evidence and interpreting the probability of the claims of the Holocaust narrative. But that's just a means to an end- the end being to undermine the mythology that rules over us. Look at how atheists used scientific and technical arguments to undermine Christianity, nobody can doubt the critical effectiveness of bringing a scientific critique to a myth body that fundamentally makes impossible claims.
And implicitly your arguments imply that 'if Germany did exterminate those Jews then the current stance of various Jews in the media/anti-racist/Zionist genres is justified and never-again would hold'.
This could be reversed, the Jews in the media who say that the proliferation of Holocaust denial would be an existential threat to Jews are also admitting the truth is highly threatening to their position. So the "who cares?" rings hollow when so many people care very much and consider it relevant for maintaining their station.
And it seems fundamentally implausible that a powerful country like Germany that could fight three global empires simultaneously (while constantly emphasising that Judeo-Bolsheviks were behind their foes) would be unable or unwilling to eradicate Jews in conquered territories.
And that is not the claim of the Holocaust, the Holocaust is the claim that millions of Jews were brought to 5 "extermination camps" where they were tricked into walking into gas chambers on the pretext of taking a shower. The majority of the victims were allegedly buried, and then months later unburied and all cremated on makeshift open-air pyres in the matter of months. A claim that defies all logic and possibility, and fundamentally lacks documentary and physical evidence. The claim is false. It's a modern-day Exodus myth enshrined by the conjoined efforts of Hollywood and the apparatus of Stalinist propaganda, used as a tool for denazification, direction immigration policy and American perception of multiracialism, support for Israel, and much more than that.
The truth of a body of myth is not important in its influence or perception among the laity. The truth is relevant though for undermining the myth in the case where the myth fundamentally relies on the truth-value of claims that are false.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
2d ago
After Soviet investigators conquered the camp, they claimed 2 million were killed there between 7 gas chambers. Now today it's "tens of thousands" (not a minimum, by the way) who mostly died of disease and poor hygienic conditions. The gas chambers at Majdanek were a hoax, that newspaper article about 500,000 children being lured into gas chambers with candy and chocolate has no basis in reality whatsoever. It was wartime atrocity propaganda, only one example of a deluge that has been dumped onto the West, a psychological warfare campaign that didn't end with the war itself.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
2d ago
Jerusalem Post: Despite nearly starving the hostages, Hamas used special techniques to make them look healthier and more energetic.
Now that people can clearly see a modern-day manifestation of a very particular modus operandi- By way of deception you shall engage in war, it is worth revisiting WWII wartime propaganda as well. Given the stuff they've blatantly lied about in front of our own eyes, imagine the stories that would have been told during WWII...
Strong War on Christmas vibes- conservatives complain "the cashier didn't adequately say the thing, there's a War on Christmas" while Christmas continues to grows bigger than ever in the culture. I was driving in the South last year and, I kid you not, I saw a billboard off a rural highway that said I miss hearing you say 'Merry Christmas' - Jesus.
How many people of influence have bent the knee to Jewish remembrance in the past couple days, but to retain power you need to find the people who don't correctly participate in the civic ritual and publicly make an example of them, right? That's how it works.
As a Holocaust Denier I don't see evidence of Holocaust denial on the Left, just public punishment for non-compliance to the small number of people who make the mistake of disrespecting the Holiday.
The entire consideration of Gentiles as Holocaust victims at all has been a very fluid matter; for a time it was claimed that there were 11 million victims in the Holocaust, 5 million Gentiles and 6 million Jews. But the figure of 5 million Gentiles being killed in the Holocaust was a number totally fabricated by Holocaust studies advocate Simon Wiesenthal. According to people close to him, he invented the number in order to manipulate Gentiles into having more stake in the Holocaust narrative.
Incidentally, the article is another attempted dressing-down of Sean Spicer for not correctly acknowledging Jewish victims:
It’s a statement that shows up regularly in declarations about the Nazi era. It was implied in a Facebook post by the Israel Defense Forces’ spokesperson’s unit last week marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day. And it was asserted in an article shared by the Trump White House in defense of its controversial Holocaust statement the same day omitting references to the 6 million Jewish victims.
It is, however, a number without any scholarly basis.
Indeed, say those close to the late Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, its progenitor, it is a number that was intended to increase sympathy for Jewish suffering but which now is more often used to obscure it.
The White House statement sent waves of dismay through the Jewish community, including among groups that have been supportive of President Donald Trump.
By mentioning the “victims, survivors, [and] heroes of the Holocaust” without mentioning the Jews, said a host of Jewish organizations, the January 27 statement risked playing into the hands of the European right, which includes factions that seek to diminish the centrality of the Jewish genocide to the carnage of World War II.
In defending the omission of Jews from the statement, a White House spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, sent CNN a link to a 2015 Huffington Post-UK piece titled “The Holocaust’s Forgotten Victims: The 5 Million Non-Jewish People Killed By The Nazis.”
The “5 million” has driven Holocaust historians to distraction ever since Wiesenthal started to peddle it in the 1970s. Wiesenthal told the Washington Post in 1979, “I have sought with Jewish leaders not to talk about 6 million Jewish dead, but rather about 11 million civilians dead, including 6 million Jews.”
...
Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli Holocaust scholar who chairs the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, said he warned his friend Wiesenthal, who died in 2005, about spreading the false notion that the Holocaust claimed 11 million victims – 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews.
“I said to him, ‘Simon, you are telling a lie,’” Bauer recalled in an interview Tuesday. “He said, ‘Sometimes you need to do that to get the results for things you think are essential.’”
Bauer and other historians who knew Wiesenthal said the Nazi hunter told them that he chose the 5 million number carefully: He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish suffering, but not larger than the actual number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 6 million.
It caught on: President Jimmy Carter, issuing the executive order that would establish the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, referred to the “11 million victims of the Holocaust.”
Nowadays, it is not fashionable to emphasize Gentile victims in the Holocaust, now that the "5 million" figure is acknowledged to have just been a symbolic propaganda figure intended to manipulate Gentiles into having more stake in the Holocaust narrative.
Of the 6 million Jews allegedly killed in the Holocaust, it is claimed that about half of that figure (approximately 3 million, give or take) were killed by being tricked into entering shower rooms that were actually gas chambers in disguise. It is not claimed any significant number of Gentiles were killed in these gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Likewise, the alleged "Final Solution" which purportedly ordered the extermination of the Jews is a cornerstone of the Holocaust narrative.
Given that these particularities of the Holocaust, and which define it really, are said to only have been applied to Jews it doesn't really make sense to include Gentiles as being victims of the "Holocaust" as such, and the current meta is more around emphasizing the Holocaust as a Jewish experience. But it should be noted that it was the Jews themselves who originally emphasized Gentile victims of the Holocaust in order to influence their perception of the narrative.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
3d ago
Incidentally, I myself have submitted several minor ideas to DeepSeek; maybe they found use for those
DeepSeek results copped from the White Man, confirmed.
Seriously though, my only point was that I don't think the HBD perspective is surprised that the Chinese are doing well competing on the development of LLMs, after that technological race was kicked off by the West. No more, no less. And I think a lot of your criticisms of Western AGI establishment are cogent. I don't think race is a deprecated question, it may even become more important on the eve of AGI.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
3d ago
The archaeological evidence for the Kingdom of Israel is very sparse indeed suggesting, even if it existed in the first place, it was more illustrious as depicted in literary fiction than it was in reality. There's a dearth of material evidence and of course no genetic evidence to speak of connecting the biblical Hebrews to modern-day Jews.
Herod the Great for example was a convert. The question of conversion to Judaism under the Roman Empire is an open one and sure it's controversial and speculative. Run Unz has an interesting article on this, suggesting there many have been a Phoenician diaspora in the Roman Empire that had converted to Judaism to some extent.
In the end it doesn't even matter, it's still a very real and coherent identity simply by nature of the underlying mythology that has memed it into existence and into the deep-rooted consciousness of people who identify with it. It's more trivia but doesn't matter for any of the arguments I'm making.
That also applies to the taxonomical arguments. hydroacetylene is wrong that Jews are more monophyletic than Europeans when the exact opposite is true, but I don't think the taxonomy is relevant compared to the cultural signals embedded in religion, myth, and propaganda.
monophyletic
Monophyly means belongs to a Clade descended from a common ancestral group not shared by other people- there is very much a European Clade that stands out among the rest of humanity, and Jews themselves are descended from the mixture of that Clade with a Near-Eastern mixture.
I don't even think it's a relevant question for your argument or my response to you. But all Europeans descend from the mixture of three constituent races: Anatolian Farmers (represented best by modern Sardinians who are nearly 100% of this admixture), Western Hunter-Gatherers, and Proto-Indo-European Steppe herders (most concentrated in Northern Europe). All Europeans are a combination of this ancestral group, and nobody else in the world is descended from that ancestral group alone. That is a clade that is unique to Europeans and only Europeans among everyone else in the world, from the Spanish to the Swede.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
3d ago
I start to doubt it. Whites are just people who are sexually attractive, relatively trustworthy, and provide linear labor to verbal-tilted Brahmins who max corporate KPIs leveraging even more verbal-tilted Ashkenazim like Altman who are good at raising capital.
That's about it at this point.
Again, it seems very doubtful to me that these groups have significantly different distributions of sexual attractiveness, trustworthiness, labor value, verbal, IQ, but they are all the same when it comes to affinity for breakthrough innovation. People think differently...
I actually agree with Wefang's summary you posted, but Wefang is implying basically stereotype threat: that the Chinese don't innovate from 0 to 1 because there's a stereotype that job belongs to the West. Ok, so we are in the familiar HBD-denial territory by using Stereotype Threat to explain a very long-standing disparity in behavior: the Chinese don't innovate from 0 to 1 because there's a stereotype that they don't do that. I think you're leaning into that as well.
I don't think architectural innovations, even very clever ones the Chinese come up with, are the "0 to 1" that was already accomplished by OpenAI and the West. And as my last post said, that is not just or even mostly about the papers, it's about the technological, political, economic, geopolitical influence- they got the ball rolling on those fronts. I don't doubt the ability of the Chinese to perhaps even outcompete the West on going from 1 to 10 for the reasons you said, but 0 to 1 was already done by the West and this pattern is consistent with that stereotype which HBD stans claim is derived from differences in cognitive profile.
I am not saying this out of racism. I am reporting on what I see happening. All historical inventions and discoveries of note? Yes, those were White work. But time is accelerating. Maxwell's equations seem not far from "muh gunpowder" of the Middle Kingdom now, to my eyes. Do something new, folks. You're losing face.
Sure, maybe we'll be proven wrong! But it hasn't happened yet, LLMs are following the "West does 0 to 1, then West competes with China on 1 to 10" pattern that follows the basic stereotype.
Again, 'jews' are a monophyletic group, so identity politics for them makes sense. 'White people' are not
That is the funniest thing you have ever said, European peoples are incredibly more monophyletic than Jews, who themselves are 50% European among Ashkenazis. Even the notion they are descended from the Hebrews is dubious, compared to the more likely possibility of converts in the Roman Empire.
People don't even understand how static European race has been racially for thousands of years. A Spaniard from the south of Spain is more closely related genetically to a Norwegian than to a Moroccan.
Edit: I would also suggest that the intra-European racial animosity among Whites in the US- while I acknowledge that does express itself in different ways even today, it's still lower than it is between Jewish subgroups in Israel. And in any case the perception of Jewish Identity Politics among normies is not at all a function of the supposed monophyletic-ness of Jews, it's a function of the propaganda that has been transmitted to them their entire lives.
If the identitarian right and the wider priestly caste are going to hold on to Identity Politics as an organizing principal/value they are going to have to have to confront the fact that the perception of Identity Politics in the popular zeitgeist is that of an ideology for losers. An ideology for people too stupid, degenerate, or incompetent to survive in an honest meritocracy.
That is certainly not the perception of Jewish Identity Politics, take Ben Shapiro for example. I doubt you feel that way about Jewish Identity Politics and the way it expresses itself in politics and culture. And even if you do feel that way about it, you are very far away from the Normie who perceives it as totally normal in the base case, but in many cases they view defense of Jewish Identity Politics as a moral impetus that falls even on non-Jews.
I do not believe the engagement of Jews with Identity Politics in how they socially, politically, and economically organize is because they are losers who are too stupid or degenerate or incompetent to survive in an honest meritocracy. Do you think that?
How is it we arrived at this point, where Jewish Identity Politics is a profound moral impetus, but White Identity Politics is just for people "too stupid, degenerate, or incompetent to survive in an honest meritocracy?"
I would say, however we arrived at this point, we use the same tools and levers to reverse this perception among normies. Normies, and people like yourself, have arrived at this bifurcated interpretation of Identity Politics based on the esoteric racial propaganda you have been exposed to since you were a child in various forms of your daily life. My opinion is not that we do normie outreach with political arguments, it's that we use the same tools to promote White identity as have been used to create your negative perception of White identity.
And maybe you think you arrived at your opinion of White Identity based only on rational argument and careful consideration. No you didn't- it's downstream of history you were taught, the stories you were told by your teacher, the material you were told to read in school, the movies you watch every time you go to the theater, the social causes taken up by Hollywood celebrities. If all of those things had conveyed a different cultural signal to you, you would also have a different opinion of White Identity, so it is for normies.
Yes, this is a Spencerian interpretation for how esoteric, racial moralization and demoralization signals in religion and culture are the key for directing the identities and behavior of the normies. Not going up to them and trying to convince them with arguments. That's certainly not how you or the normies became convinced that Identity Politics for Jews is great and Identity Politics for White people is degenerate.
I think it's time to admit that the famed Western creativity is mostly verbal tilt plus inflated self-esteem, not an advanced cognitive capability. I'm mildly surprised myself.
Trust me, I hope I'm wrong! But the fact is, as I go throughout my day 99% of the innovations I rely on and impact my daily life and our economy as a whole were invented in the West, and have been refined/manufactured/redesigned/made cheaper in China. Not the other way around, and if it were the other way around surely you would point to a HBD explanation. Yes, I do think there's an HBD basis for that and it would be absurd to deny that, a priori it would be silly to doubt there's an HBD basis for any sort of stark pattern like that one Murray observes. I don't think LLMs are a counterexample of that trend.
It would be like if China made a better and cheaper Tesla than Musk, OK that's great but it doesn't really contradict the observation that these innovations are born in the West and then get adopted and modified/improved in China.
The problem is that there haven't been substantial breakthroughs in LLMs in the West too.
Honestly this feels like a cope to me. There obviously was a breakthrough in LLMs in the West: politically, economically, technologically, culturally. It wasn't born in China, but they obviously have a significant part to play downstream of their undeniable talent pool.
It's hard to say Deepseek would have accomplished these things without drafting on OpenAI's introduction of LLMs to the world, and all of the downstream political, economic, geopolitical, cultural impact resulting from that disruption- and it was OpenAI that did the disrupting there is simply no denying. On the other hand we know OpenAI did not need Deepseek.
Yeah I've picked up on it from various Podcasts on movies and Bible Studies. They are doing a Podcast series on Genesis right now where they go through every single verse, but I think it's behind a paywall. They are close to releasing a book that will essentially be a debut for the theory. I'll probably read it and write a review when it comes out.
But in the meantime, Grok did a pretty stellar job providing a fair summary IMO:
REM Theory Overview:
REM Theory, as articulated by Mark Brahmin and Richard Spencer, primarily focuses on the concept of Racial Esoteric Moralization (REM) and Jewish Esoteric Moralization (JEM). The theory posits that myths, art, religion, and propaganda are not just cultural expressions but are deeply intertwined with the formation and moralization of racial identities. Here's a breakdown based on available sources:
- Racial Esoteric Moralization (REM): This aspect of the theory argues that there exists a symbolic language that has been passed down through centuries, influencing not only Western but global cultural narratives. REM suggests that this language serves to shape racial identity and moral conduct through symbols and stories that are often unconscious to the general populace but known to an elite or those versed in this symbolic language. The theory claims that these narratives in myths, religion, and art can either "moralize" or "demoralize" a populace, thereby serving as tools for social and political control.
- Jewish Esoteric Moralization (JEM): According to Brahmin, JEM is a subset of REM where Jewish mythology and cultural expressions have been used historically to shape not just Jewish identity but also to influence broader cultural narratives, particularly in Christianity. Brahmin's analysis suggests that JEM has contributed significantly to the development of Western culture in ways that might not be obvious to the lay observer.
- Apolloism: This is an extension of REM Theory where Brahmin and Spencer advocate for a return to or revival of a pre-Christian, classical, or "Aryan" ethic. Apolloism contrasts with what they perceive as the demoralizing effects of Judeo-Christian spirituality on what they term the "Aryan" race. The idea is to use the understanding of REM to construct a new cultural and religious framework (Apolloism) that would elevate and preserve the qualities they associate with ancient Aryan culture.
- Racial Esoteric Moralization (REM) in Film: Symbolism and Archetypes: Brahmin argues that films, like ancient myths, use archetypal characters and symbolic narratives to convey racial and moral messages. He interprets characters and plotlines in terms of their racial symbolism, suggesting that even mainstream movies are imbued with hidden messages that reinforce or challenge racial identities.
- Hollywood as a Moralizing Force: They see Hollywood as an institution that has historically served to shape the moral and racial consciousness of the audience. Through REM, Brahmin would analyze films to uncover how they might be promoting or undermining certain racial identities or moral values.
Insights from the Apollonian Transmission:
- Cultural and Myth Analysis: The Apollonian Transmission, a platform by Brahmin, delves into the decoding of ancient and contemporary texts through the lens of REM. It aims to uncover how these texts carry hidden messages that influence racial and moral identity. Brahmin and Spencer argue that by understanding these symbols, one can counteract or redirect the demoralization they believe has been inflicted upon Western civilization.
- Criticism and Controversy: The theory and its implications have stirred debate. Critics, like those referenced in "Once More Between Rome and Judea", challenge the methodology and conclusions of REM Theory, accusing it of sophistry and speculative pattern recognition, suggesting that it lacks rigorous evidential support and borders on pseudoscientific interpretation.
- Practical Application: Courses like those offered at ALEX university aim to apply REM Theory in understanding Hollywood cinema, suggesting that films serve not only entertainment but also as a medium for racial moralization or demoralization. This approach underscores Brahmin's belief in the power of culture as a tool for racial and moral shaping.
In summary, REM Theory by Mark Brahmin and Richard Spencer is a framework for interpreting cultural and religious narratives as mechanisms for racial identity formation and moral guidance, focusing on the symbolic language that they argue has shaped human history. Apolloism then proposes a cultural and spiritual revival based on these insights. However, this theoretical framework remains controversial and is subject to significant critique regarding its methods and conclusions.
One more followup:
Racial Esoteric Moralization (REM) in the Hebrew Bible:
- Symbolism and Allegory: Brahmin and Spencer argue that the Hebrew Bible, like other religious texts, contains layers of symbolic language intended to shape the racial identity and moral conduct of its adherents. They suggest that narratives within the Bible, such as those involving the Israelites, are not merely historical or moral tales but are imbued with racial significance.
- Creation of Jewish Identity: They posit that the Hebrew Bible has played a crucial role in the moralization (and thus, racialization) of Jewish identity, reinforcing a sense of chosenness and separation from other peoples. This is seen in stories like the Exodus, where the Israelites are depicted as a distinct, divinely selected nation.
- Influence on Western Culture: Brahmin extends this by suggesting that through Christianity (which he sees as heavily influenced by Judaism), these Jewish moral and racial narratives have permeated and shaped Western civilization, often in ways that are not overtly recognized.
The 4-word summary would be that "Myth influences racial formation."
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
4d ago
I feel like Jeff Probst from Survivor has an awesome career. Imagine the rest of your career just be hosting Survivor, sounds fun.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
5d ago
They were always capable, they just needed to borrow the Silicon Valley move fast and break things culture in addition to the technical foundation.
They needed to borrow the Culture and they needed to borrow the technical foundation, so this still seems pretty much aligned with the HBD stans to me, who never doubted their intelligence or ability to adopt and improve upon Western innovations. Now if LLMs had had the OpenAI-tier breakthrough in China that would have been a challenge to the HBD stans, but this development basically aligns with the HBD take on the comparative advantage of Chinese talent in adopting Western stuff and then making marginal improvements with their own intelligence and grit.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
5d ago
99.99% of the Roman imperium were spectators, they got to bask in the Glory of Rome the same.
The most benevolent AI imaginable would do everything required to achieve these great works short of the marginal productivity of human struggle such that humans meaningfully participate in the project, even if that contribution itself could be automated.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
5d ago
Goethe said it best:
The Godhead is effective in the living and not in the dead, in the becoming and the changing, not in the become and the set-fast; and therefore, similarly, the reason is concerned only to strive towards the divine through the becoming and the living, and the understanding only to make use of the become and the set-fast.
Living is the act of becoming. Post-AGI economics should be geared towards great works; building the Tower of Babel, space colonization, Galactic Imperium. Something grows or it dies. Humans will need to participate in and identify with some grand project like this even if their individual contribution isn't meaningful.
Christianity is no more of a hoax than the myth of Jacob and Esau, or Moses, or Jupiter. I do not call any of those a hoax, they are something more powerful than that- a Hollywood movie is not a hoax. REM is about understanding the function of myth in directing the identity and ultimately genetic evolution of groups of people. I have explained this to you but you refuse to engage that argument so I think this conversation is pretty much done.
I've followed Richard's Substack and found the thesis very compelling, why is that so hard for you to understand? Do you know what Substack is? Do you know it lets other people read your stuff? No idea why you insist I am one of those people, you are delusional.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
5d ago
You are delusional if you think you have any idea who somebody is just because they share something they found interesting on Substack.
You are just taking a point-and-sputter approach where you don't engage with any of the arguments. Your comment is not an accurate characterization of REM Theory, but you can't actually engage the arguments it makes so instead you set up a really easy to tackle straw man.
Your entire bit has just been calling everything nonsense without engaging with the material. I really hate to burst your bubble- Christianity was invented by the Jews! Likewise Islam was derived from Judaism. Paul's project was explicitly to formulate a Judaism for Gentiles, and that effort yielded another extremely influential myth that is part of this long saga.
None of this is even controversial, what's controversial is the meaning behind these myths or the intention behind them. Notably, Christianity led to iconoclasm against the idols of traditional European religion in favor of sole worship of Yahweh above all else. That's not even disputable, you are just saying it was random development of history rather than an intelligent mythological influence. Kind of like how some people genuinely think Wokeness just popped out of the ground independent of the will of the people creating Culture everywhere they look.
Myth is a mechanism for control. That's the entire point of REM Theory. This applies to the Bible, and it applies to Marvel Comics and Schindler's List all equally. It's insightful and frankly derivative of insights from Plato's allegory of the Cave or Herbert's Dune.
REM Theory requires no gishgallop, just two simple premises which have quite a lot of support:
-
That some of the mythological figures in the Hebrew Bible were intended to symbolically represent an Indo-European type, like Esau and Goliath. This is a common feature of the pagan canon as well- mythological gods as symbolic representations of foreign people. It's not outlandish prima facie that Indo-Europeans are symbolically represented among figures in Hebrew myth. The reason it would be "new" to emphasize is because there has been a long-standing ignorance and denial of the extent of Indo-European migrations, and therefore a lack of appreciation for how these migrations could manifest in Hebrew myth developed during the time of these expansions.
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That these myths were consciously designed by propagandists, and these myths direct the evolution of human races.
The texts have been interpreted countless ways over the centuries, so the idea Richard and Mark have found some novel way to interpret them is extremely implausible.
It's literally not novel as it aligns with the Early Rabbis who made the same relation... REM explains the reason for the existence of the myth.
Indo-European tribes invaded all of Europe, and down through India and Iran. Much about these invasions was not known for sure until very recently- in some cases, until the past couple decades, the invasions were regarded as racist myths and they never happened in the first place. The more we learn, the more plausible the suggestion is that Hebrew myth was, in significant part and in particular stories, inspired by contact with Indo-European tribes. Goliath being an example- an Indo-European name and a depiction of a physically tall man which of course is the most prominent phenotype of Indo-Europeans among everyone else in the world.
It perhaps even explains the reason the Hebrew Bible exists in the first place- propaganda to cohere a people in the face of an external threat. That part is more speculative, sure. REM would suggest that is the reason for the existence and importance of that myth body. I don't think anybody would deny the Jews have abided thanks to this body of myth.
But the Roman canon is likewise largely inspired by contact with external tribes, and there are Roman gods who esoterically depict Semitic peoples just the same. The notion that Indo-Europeans are not depicted in the Hebrew Bible becomes less likely the more we learn about how broad their migrations were across continents. Particularly given the early Rabbis themselves attributed a continuity between these mythological figures and the real-world Roman empire.
Spencer's interpretation isn't even novel as I've explained, what is novel is his combination of that interpretation with evolutionary psyschology and Race Formation. There has been scientific study of Race, there has been mythological study, but there hasn't been adequate analysis of the interplay between the two. REM fills a real gap in providing a synthesis of those studies.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
5d ago
I won't pretend to know that all Rabbis would agree on something, but I'm pretty sure they would at least mostly agree that the interpretation of the early Rabbis was that Rome was descended from Edom. The more controversial question would be why the early Rabbis had this interpretation of the myth.
The article I linked presents an interpretation of the reason the Rabbis associated Rome with Edom that does not agree with Richard's position.
However, the reason that article gives for why the early Rabbis associated Rome with Edom is basically the Transitive Property of Hate: the Rabbis hated Edom, the Rabbis hated Rome, therefore Rome is Edom. I don't find that convincing, but even that perspective supports REM Theory that these myths and their interpretation, and even their changing interpretations esoterically depict racial conflict.
Even the suggestion that the Rabbis associated Edom with Rome based on the conflict of Jews with Rome would only suggest that even the original influence of the story would have been inspired by proto-Jewish conflict with proto-Indo-European tribes as well! Did this conflict between Rome and Judea start with Rome and Judea? No it did not, the racial contact goes back further and the Hebrew bible provides a mythological depiction and interpretation of this conflict in stories like this...
That is REM Theory. It's highly plausible and I think it's a significant theory. It generalizes to art and myth that is depicted even today. It also generalizes to the Pagan canon. It's not just Jews that used Religion for this purpose, the Indo-European Pantheon is likewise an esoteric canon of racial conflict, moralization, and hierarchy. It's a very strong theory and you haven't really challenged it meaningfully IMO.
No, I said it's literary criticism, which means it should be engaged on its merits and there is a lot of merit to their interpretation. Especially since some of the most important parts align with the interpretation of the Rabbis.
This is just Richard’s interpretation and nothing more.
It is in fact not just Richard's interpretation:
Although the texts about Jacob and Esau are ostensibly speaking about individuals, each brother represents an ethnic and/or political group that resided in the Levant in biblical times.
Ok, so this is REM theory exactly. It's not some moral lesson from God, it's a myth representing race conflict and intended to moralize a race of people. And the article acknowledges the position of the Rabbis:
This basic sketch of the relationship between the polities of Israel/Judah/Judea and Edom/Idumea during the biblical and Second Temple periods indicates that Edom was a polity that ruled from the Mount Seir area, from Wadi al-Hasa (south-east of the Dead Sea) in modern day Jordan and southward, eventually extending westward to Ashkelon on the Mediterranean Coast, and northward up to Hebron, in the Second Temple period.
And yet, Rabbinic midrash associates Esau and Edom with a completely different geographical area—the city of Rome in the Italian Peninsula—and speaks as if Romans are all Edomites.
The Talmud clearly associates the Romans with the Edomites. And it's not just a Spencer idea that Jacob and Esau represent different races in ethnic conflict.
Even the Philistines, i.e. in the David and Goliath myth are considered to have been likely descended from the Sea Peoples, in particular the tribe with Greek origins:
Possible relations to Indo-European languages, even Mycenaean Greek, support the theory that immigrant Philistines originated among "sea peoples".
Goliath is not a semitic name, it's an Indo-European name and the Philistine language is not semitic in origin. Goliath's height and strength would support the theory from a phenotypical perspective as well.
The point of that being REM theory is both radical and plausible in proposing that these myths are portraying conflict between Jews and Indo-European tribes in many of the important cases. This theory is supported by the Rabbis and the Talmud. It's also supported by some archeological and linguistic evidence tying the Philistines to a tribe of Indo-European sea-farers.
So saying it's "unfalsifiable" is wrong, insofar you could prove it wrong if you could prove that Esau did not symbolically represent an Indo-European even though the Talmud supports the interpretation of Esau as representing an Indo-European type.
Even from purely a literary perspective, Esau seems to represent an Indo-European type with red hair- he is strong and physically fit. Famously, Jacob swindles Esau's birthright by putting on goat-skin and pretending to be Esau to his blind father Isaac, such that Jacob received the blessing meant for Esau. Very interesting stuff. The story harkens to even modern myth in which the "Nerd vs Jock" trope is racialized along the same lines, and the nerd uses his brains to beat the jock and get the chick in the end.
REM theory is only unfalsifiable insofar as all critical literary analysis is unfalsifiable. I agree Mark sometimes goes too far speculating on certain nuances, but the big picture items- Hebrew stores like Tower of Babel, Jacob and Esau, David and Goliath, esoterically depicting racial conflict and elevating a Jewish type is very obviously true and insightful. In the most important cases- i.e. Jacob and Esau representing a sibling rivalry between Jew and Aryan, this has always been acknowledged by the Rabbis who relate Esau to the progenitor of Edom, and therefore Rome and Rome's successor Europe. That's just an example for how REM aligns with the interpretation of the Rabbis in a very important case, maybe the most important case.
That analysis applied to modern filmography, i.e. Steven Spielberg is also only as "unfalsifiable" as all film criticism. But Spielberg films are unequivocally an example of REM theory generalizing to modern forms of art depiction, in which the Jewish identities of the art-creators is imbued in their mythological signals, which in turn influences the behavior of mass audiences of people.
The essence of REM Theory that Yahweh is a metaphor and synonym for Jews as a race is unequivocally true. Understanding that leads to a much deeper interpretation of these biblical stories, in particular understanding the stories in which Yahweh comes into conflict with Civilization (i.e. Tower of Babel).
The conclusion that the Hebrew Bible has influenced the creation of races of people, and therefore race-creation is downstream from myth-creation, is so obviously true that we should be shocked that nobody has made this observation before in the way REM has. Have to give it credit where due.
I said the official story, about half were claimed to have been killed with gassings inside shower rooms, more than any other single method. Many died from disease, and many died in hunger and shootings as well, Revisionist do not deny that part happened, only the gas chambers. Yes, many Ukranian Jews were killed by Ukranians themselves because they were associated with the Soviet apparatus by the Ukranians.
You can walk and chew gum, it's fine if others want to emphasize that argument. But the Revisionists are correct, so the fact they have the truth of it is worthy of pursuing in its own right. If you don't find it interesting that's of course up to you. I find it interesting for a lot of reasons, although I do not believe it's a silver bullet.
I don't think you really responded to my point that they heavily rely on that 80-year old mythos, as evidence by OP's post. They find it very important, and they find denial if it to be highly threatening. So they themselves do not believe you that it's just history that is unimportant.
It's not history, it's a mythology. Part of that mythology is that, at Treblinka, in an effort to erase all trace of the crime, the small labor force there unburied and cremated 5,000 people per day on huge open-air pyres. According to DeepSeek R1, that would require 3,400 cords of dry wood to be delivered, constructed, burned every single day for 120 days straight. With no documentary evidence at all. And no witness reference to any deliveries of fuel at all. And no physical evidence. And no contemporary witness reports, just rumor and testimony after the fact. And no scientific excavation of any mass graves to study the alleged cremated remains of 800,000 people in a precisely known location.
It's not history, it's a mythology. And it does fall apart in the face of facts very easily. It's not going to last forever. Again, I don't think it's a silver bullet. But it's a relevant mythology that is severely undermined when challenged on a factual basis. That's why they are so afraid of it, and they aren't afraid of you talking about crime stats or Detroit which every conservative does.
If you're taking flak, you know you're over the target. "Detroit and crime stats" is harped on by every other conservative, Revisionism is responded to with absolute hysteria. That's a hint that it's more important than you think.
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