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PaperclipPerfector  1d ago (text post)   7617 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 21, 2025

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An Attempt at Bringing Back the User Viewpoint Focus Series

I'm attempting to bring it back, and I'm attempting to bring it back with a template so it isn't just an expectation of writing a ten thousand word essay at the drop of a hat. If you have suggestions, feel free to drop them in a comment.

Self description in motte terms

I'm an actual IRL tradcath with classical conservative political views in the continental tradition rather than the British one. More de Maistre, less Hobbes. I'm inherently skeptical of central planning as a solution for long-running problems; the role of a rightly ordered state is more that of a gardener than an engineer. There might be some planning involved but the government's job is more to promote good things and suppress bad things than to build a mold; nobody and no technology can tell what the end result will be. I'm techno-skeptic and HBD accepting-but-minimalist, with strong utopiaskepticism.

I'm also not rationalist in that I don't think we can reason through our problems all the time. Thinking isn't a bad thing, generally speaking, but it's probably not going to solve our actual problems. There's some we're stuck with and some we haven't figured out the solution for but the solution is generally a doing and not a thinking or talking. And in a lot of cases we're not going to figure out the right doing by sitting around and reasoning through it, we have to go try stuff. Like capitalism- nobody in an ivory tower came up with capitalism from first principles. It developed over time until Adam Smith wrote down how it worked from observation. That's why it works and communism doesn't.

Finally, I'm a western supremacist. The west is the best civilization and that's just factual. But the west has a boom/bust cycle of decline before growth, measured in centuries. This isn't usually a technological decline although it sometimes is; it's a civilizational malaise which drives political fragmentation and lower accomplishment until people rebuild. In other words decadence, but I believe decadence isn't just a feeling, it can be measured(by someone who's better at math than I am). The west in its boom overtakes every civilization; the chinamen will stick to their tea and incense when a western boom spreads to Mars and then the stars, just as the last western boom spread to every corner of the earth. The west is unfortunately in a decadent part of the cycle but we as individuals can build functioning institutions to rebuild it, as our ancestors did in the middle ages to claw themselves back up to greatness. And we do need to learn from the past; tradition is not necessarily a perfect guide but the alternative is fartsniffing until we've figured something out. Recommended Reading

Family and Civilization by Carle Zimmerman- account of the boom and bust cycle of western civilization. Read with Soldiers and Silver by Michael Taylor to read a snapshot of one of his examples(republican Rome overtaking the Hellenistic kingdoms).

The WEIRDest People in the World by Joseph Heinrich- on western institutions and their organic development into the greatest civilizational boom their ever was.

The Case against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry- on a failed experiment.

The Hapsburg Way by Edward Hapsburg- on applying traditional lessons to modern life.

Brief Manifesto

Build something. Do something. Make civilization work. Run in the hamster wheel turning the cogs of society- propose to your girlfriend and have babies, raise them right, work hard, if you see problems in your community go and find a way to solve them. Get people to organize, or infiltrate a preexisting institution. Join the Elks or the Lions. Make a mark that isn't digital. You probably can't be president(unless JD Vance actually is on this forum), but you can make a difference in people's lives and you can start building the machinery of a functioning society.

Senators and presidents can do whatever stupid things they're on about, it's not an excuse for not showing up. Us common folk still need to make shit work. Follow the success sequence and make it so your kids can do the same. Set a good example. Listen to your grandparents. Make being a worker bee OK.

Ping me on

I have specific knowledge of: Catholicism and Tradcaths(the real ones, not the twitterati), Texas politics, trades work(I would like to write an effortpost about the trades shortage but think I would need help with research) and blue collar work in general, and the people who do it.

AAQC's I'm proud of/would like to call attention to once more

https://www.themotte.org/post/1287/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/277989?context=8#context

https://www.themotte.org/post/900/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/194609?context=8#context

I nominate @Dean for the next one. If you can't do it, please say so in the comments so someone can replace you.

How do you define western civilization, and what makes it best? Especially in light of the industrial revolution and the shift from >90% of the population working in agriculture to <10%, I don't see us as living in the same civilization as anyone from hundreds of years ago, so talk about centuries-long cycles in a civilization that is barely centuries old doesn't compute. Our way of living, dominant beliefs, our heroes and demons, the way our families are structured, how we relate to those near and far, the dominant languages of the elites, all of that is so different from what came before that it feels a real stretch to call Christendom and Western civilization the same.

What's the best blue collar job for me?

Current/former programmer. Dad is a carpenter.

Things I don't mind:

  • Being uncomfortably hot
  • Weird hours
  • Being careful and slow

Things I do mind:

  • Disgusting things, extreme amounts of dirt, any amount of poop, or bugs.
  • Travelling far from home

Don't know how it is 'round your parts, but I found out firsthand that there is approximately one full-time mechanical clock repairer/restorer in my metroplex, who is also well past retirement and cannot meet demand.

Don’t be a plumber or exterminator, or a welder or pipeline worker.

I generally recommend that men with white collar careers not try to switch to a trade. This is because tradesmen don’t make very much their first year, have to undergo some hazing(gossip is that electricians are the worst about it but they all do it), and usually need to start out getting experience with physical shitty work that goes easier when you’re 20 instead of 30. Yes, even if you live in an environment dominated by illegal immigrants.

If you insist, there’s electrical trades that work more ‘in a power plant’ and less ‘on a customer’s jobsite’ or diesel mechanics. Maybe some high-skill manufacturing jobs as well(very location dependent, but aircraft factories definitely fit here). But, well, prepare to make $17/hr doing crappy low skill work for a little bit first.

My father has been a glazier for 40 years, and I've worked with him on occasional jobs here and there. He is self-employed, and primarily does storefront windows and doors for restaurants, banks, retail, offices, etc.

Pros:

  • Nothing gross about it really. All metal and glass. Sawdust, metal shavings, etc., but nothing unsanitary.
  • In growing areas the demand is tremendous. It's a somewhat uncommon trade skill, but required in damn near every building everywhere. For many corporate clients, if you can get on their approved vendor list you can basically name your price, and they'll pay it without blinking.
  • Pretty high-precision/high-craft. Not mindless at all. Lots of practical problem-solving. Your work may be beautiful. You can drive around your city and point at all kinds of buildings and say, "I did part of that."
  • You go all over town or your region each day - no being chained to a desk. But your range wouldn't typically be more than a couple hours from home.
  • Don't have to work for a company or with anyone else if you don't want to. The most he does is occasionally hire laborers to help move very large things.

Cons:

  • Glass and metal are sharp and can be dangerous. You really have to take safety seriously. People do get seriously injured or die in this line of work, but it doesn't have to be you.
  • Shit is heavy. Glass is just very heavy. Finished units are heavier still. A lot is mitigated by various simple machines, carts, dollies, and so on, but there will be times when you must shift some big thing around a corner with muscle force, and you'll feel it the next day. Having said that, my dad is in his 60s and still has all his functions, and tells me he has no unusual daily pain.
  • There is often work at heights, potentially extreme ones, usually on scaffolding. Wear the safety harness. And of course you'll certainly be outside in the heat and cold.
  • It's a potentially hard skill to pick up, in that you either have to get someone to teach it to you, or work for a company doing the scut work for a couple of years while you learn. No legible credentials (in non-union states anyway), which may be good or bad depending on your perspective.

I can say I would be quite happy if children of mine went into it. It's honest work and actually quite deep and interesting.

If I were more optimistic about long term dynamics, I'd quite like this. I've built some large aquariums for fun, with some fish bridges etc. Definitely fun work with potential! May God deliver me from the temptation of becoming a Mormon glazier.

Why didn't you get into this line? Does your dad work with/train others?

I didn't really appreciate what he did when I was a young adult. I was a real whiz kid in school, and it seemed a shame not to use the scholarships and get out into the world that way. In hindsight I might have chosen differently, and now I have a whole mid-level career's worth of sunk cost that would make it probably too challenging to switch.

I think he'd be more than happy to sell all his stuff and his book of business in a few years for a nominal cost, if he knew the right person to take it over; but he's quite solitary and prefers to work alone, so it's unfortunately possible that his knowledge will die with him. Maybe I'll talk to him about trying to find an apprentice.

Maritime. Work on a cargo ship. If you're in the engine room it's hot, you can work for 6 months straight, without leaving the ship, and you probably have to be pretty careful not to mess anything up.

Unfortunately it does involve a lot of travel. Pretty sure there's tugs that aren't away from home for as long, but most of the jobs mean you won't be home for a while. At least you don't have to actually travel anywhere in a car or a plane once you're on the ship.

I think that the cliche is that most ship owners fly whichever flag is cheapest (at least until their ship get captured by pirates, then they don't call for the Panama Navy for help, but suddenly discover that they are EU or US or whatever), and that they employ the cheapest workers, which are likely from some developing country.

Taking a contract according to Panamanian law for what might be a living wage in the Philippines does not seem like a great deal for most US citizens.

A container ship will run on a giant two-stroke diesel engine. Depending on where you stand, this might qualify as "extreme amounts of dirt". The fuel oil these engines use is not like gasoline (which generally evaporates without much residuals). Cold, it is barely liquid, tar-like. And that is before you start burning that stuff in a two-stroke engine, and get all the usual fun stuff from Diesel engines, such as soot or nitric oxides. While you might get away with having the chimney of your oil-heating cleaned once a year, a ship will (in my estimation) require a lot more than that.

Of course, YMMV. If you are a nuclear technician on a US navy aircraft carrier (or sub), then you avoid most of these problems -- and will not even have to learn another language to understand your captain.

For ships that sail between US ports you are required to have a certain number of American crew because of the Jones Act. However that only applies for the US. Not only that, the pay is actually pretty good. At least as far as blue collar work goes.

The U.S. merchant marine would dodge the whole ‘foreign scabs’ thing.

I regret that most of these jobs involve a certain amount of dirt and bugs in the field, although shit is generally optional unless you're dumb enough to pick my job.

Luckily a lot of trades have the option to go commercial to avoid the worst of what you'll see going to random weirdos' houses. But that has its own set of problems.

Electrician?

Things I don't mind:

  • Being careful and slow

Things I do mind:

  • Disgusting things, extreme amounts of dirt, any amount of poop, or bugs.

And while we're at it, how about a trade for someone with the opposite preferences.

Plumbing.

I understand that these jobs (sewers, undertaking) are both viscerally off putting to normal people and come with quite good pay. As such they are generally monopolised by semi-hereditary guilds, especially undertaking. I believe @SSCReader has that background?

Not unless we're counting being a senior civil servant as a disgusting job!

I have slaughtered and cleaned animals on my grandfathers farm and mucked out cowsheds and unblocked septic tanks and the like but I was never paid for that. Just part of my upbringing with a mostly rural family.

Not unless we're counting being a senior civil servant as a disgusting job!

Ha! You said it, so I don’t have to :P

In all seriousness, I apologise, I was thinking of @AshLael who write a little about it here.

Ahh no harm at all done, it's hard enough keeping track of peoples politics let alone their personal histories!

Sheep shearer. Run into maggots? Shear right through 'em, don't mind the splash. You'll never do a hundred sheep a run (2hrs) if you worry about stuff like that.
And if you insist on the uncomfortably hot part, there's always Australia.

Oh my god, that does sound awesome! I'm more of a goat person, but sheep are pretty cool too.

When they're first born, you grab them, spray paint their butts and throw them back! Repeat every so often as they grow.

I really look forward to seeing these from some of the real characters around here, who I have in my head so clearly but who never expressed themselves in a biography.

Great idea!

skeptical of central planning as a solution for long-running problems; the role of a rightly ordered state is more that of a gardener than an engineer

Quite tangential: We're basically identical in belief. However I believe in pro-social gains by simplifying complex systems. If you e.g. have 100,000 accountants normalizing books to match the law, the ideal gardener engineer could change the law and reporting standards, so that work's not necessary (either automatic or performed by only 10,000.) In our theoretical realm, those 90,000 could then create value instead of litigating who captures past value. In practice, I rarely believe this is done (how do you replace legalistic bureaucracies and replace them with trade practitioners who want to replace themselves?)

100,000 accountants? Sounds like heaven.

Quick googling says we have 1.6 million accountants and auditors in the US. Which isn't even factoring in all of the southeast Asians they farm work out to.

"Build something. Do something."

Does it make any difference to you what we do, or is it enough just to have a job? Is the guy selling cigarettes at the same worth as someone making buildings?

There’s an interesting question there which I don’t think I have a very developed answer to. Namely, how socially negative can a job be before we stop being proud to do it.

I tend to see cigarettes as one vice among many but bookmaking as a terrible thing. I may not be entirely consistent.

Cigarettes seriously harm you when used as directed. Most other vices have to be abused to harm you.

The religious mind may consider harm and sinfulness to be inversely correlated (smoking vs promiscuity). The latter is particularly unfair to the believers and offensive to the gods precisely because the sinners are having fun without repercussions. The greater the temptation, the stronger the smell of sulfur.

Two members of my family were, until recently, dealers at a casino. They were both somewhat clear-eyed about it; they loved how much money it brought in, as well as the opportunities to socially interact with a lot of interesting people, but they understood that their jobs only existed because of a substrate of gambling addicts whose hobby has the potential to destroy lives. I don’t know that I’d describe either of them as “proud” of their jobs, and I certainly was not proud on their behalf when telling people what they did for a living.

I don’t know if real problem gamblers go to casinos. I think casinos at least have the virtue of being bounded in time and space.

The person I knew who destroyed himself gambling did so on horses and on (predictive) markets. We never even knew until he died and we discovered he’d leveraged himself and his wife to the hilt. She became absolutely penniless as a result, though friends and family gave her what help they could so she’s not homeless.

Selling isn't building. Even making cigarettes isn't building. But building machines to build better cigarettes? Now we have a philosophical discussion about socially beneficial economic activity!

I'd say yes, it's good to design and even make better cigarette making machines. And evil to operate them. Just build them as a fun project, then retool for something good.

You wrote this as a pretext for asking Dean to finally explain what his ideology is, didn’t you?

I nominate @Dean for the next one. If you can't do it, please say so in the comments so someone can replace you.

I decline. I shall expect replacement with a suitable sci-fi allusion!

@netstack, are you willing to go next?

Sure, I guess I’ll take over for @Dean’s Zakalwe.

What’s the timeline? Next week? Next month?

I figure doing more than one per culture war roundup gets to be too much and doing less than one per AAQC collection would be pointless, so like a week or two?

Proposal: Everyone else writes their own versions of your viewpoint, complete with what they think you do for a living, asl, etc.

Thanks for bringing this back! I think this last happened when it was on reddit and I was only a lurker (still have no reddit account).

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