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PaperclipPerfector  1d ago (text post)   1170 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for January 29, 2025

The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:

  • Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.

  • Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.

  • Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.

  • Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).

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To what extent is the recessed jaw epidemic genetic and to what extent is it environmental?

What epidemic?

To what extent is there a recessed jaw epidemic, especially controlled for bmi?

Biology is a spook and human faces actually take the shape that best represents the nature of the person behind them. Us becoming jawless represents our inability to take a hit, figuratively and literally. The weakening of the human spirit manifests in our bone structure.

I've felt that way ever since I read The Picture of Dorian Gray.

He would see faces in movies, on TV

In magasines and in books

He thought that some of these faces might be right for him

And that through the years

By keeping an ideal facial structure fixed in his mind

Or somewhere in the back of his mind

That he might, by force of will

Cause his face to approach those of his ideal

The change would be very subtle

It might take ten years or so

Gradually his face would change its shape

General updates -

I can now work for 9 hours without any noticeable fatigue and more than that my daily routine is more fine-tuned. On a good day, I wake up early, hit the gym, meditate, do math for 3 hours, code 4 hours, rehab my shoulder, meditate again and then write some more code. My only issue so far has been discipline at times of sleeping and family problems.

Some personal woes

The bad parts - My family has had a ton of these fake court cases and the one on our house will get a decision this feb on the 28th from the high court. We should win but I am simply only assuming that the worst will happen, we will lose the ancestral home we were born in to far-flung unknown illegitimate relatives since I do not trust the courts, I do not trust India, the people, or the institutions. On top of that, my dad booked tickets for us for mahakumbh which is an event in Prayagraj. It attracted 100 million visitors alone as this is supposed to be something that happens once in 144 years. Well, the most auspicious day was mauni amavasya which happened two days and people got killed in a stampede.

My grandad threw a fit on this and that wrecked my entire day work-wise. He believes that we all will die or at least one of us will and his house will go to his "enemies". I cannot share any of this publicly or even with friends, not after my startup larp where my ex co-founder burned all my social capital after doxxing my friends for no reason. How do I cope in case something actually bad happens, I do not want it to but I want to be prepared at the very least. My family has been embroiled in legal battles since the 50s, they spend most of what they earn on legal fee. We had a miserable time and it did play a part in my family being dysfunctional.

As I started my sabbatical and after going to thailand, I feel more adult and I cant help but feel I am responsible for both these things. Maybe I should not have asked my dad to consider mahakumbh. He was planning to buy himself a new laptop but spent that money on flight tickets, he told my ma in passing that he did it because I would have gone there had I been earning, hearing that breaks my heart. We visit on the 23rd, the flights are non refundable but we may cancel if things get worse, they should not but just in case.

Something wholesome to end my update

I got dms from a friend after he saw my name at the top of the list in Math Academy in a tweet the guy running it put out I joked about this being the first time since 2019 I got used for educational adverstiign materials lol. Those who have been reading my updates can probably spot it. I am back to lifting similar weights that I stopped at when I hurt my shoulder, I can meditate longer. Beyond that the meds, a routine, deliberate effort make studying things easier, more productive. By next I want to sustain a higher output and link projects from my github, hopefully have the court cases go well too. I did not want to mention it, no one likes reading sad things. Being somewhat better, progressing helps me to respect myself, not a lot but more than I did before. I never thought I would and that is quite uplifting, maybe things do get better.

Congrats on the maths and the stamina progress, that’s pretty hefty. I don’t have that staying power, though I’d like to.

Appreciate it man. Following the advice my mom gave helped, I ofc got it reinforced and then forced down my throat via my counselor, who sits in the psychairtrists clinic. Sleeping on time, being mindful during all waking moments, especially when I meditate, when I work, having alarms in my laptop that are synced with my pc, having co-working meetings with my much more talented and extremely serious friends where my screen and face are visible at all times.

Simple advice works it seems.

Hello motte friends. Just want to post and say I'm doing pretty good. Happy even. I'm appreciating my ordinary life. My startup recently ended up in an accelerator and that's really cured my work related feelings of alienation. Been putting deliberate effort into improving relations with my friends and family. That's paid off very quickly. I'm not feeling the whole glowing high power level I felt the week I wrote detailed logs of everything I did, but that's alright.

I'd like a lover to keep, and honestly a wife is starting to sound appealing. Work keeps bringing me to New York, things seem a lot easier there. Big hopes, good vibes.

Good work! you are doing well, I hope you find a good wide soon. Great update regardless, take care.

Motte! For my wellness, I need your umbrella recommendations.

  • Any price within reason
  • No telescope shaft. I want a proper beefy umbrella
  • Preferably with a traditional cane handle
  • Very sturdy and wind resistant
  • Size not an issue!

I want the lost luxe, longest-lasting specimen of umbrella-craft with home-defense durability available on the market.

You may be thinking, that sounds like a Gustbuster umbrella, I should recommend that! Then you would be fucking wrong, because they made the spoke-things out of plastic, and they will break where they are supposed to attach to the canopy web/frame.

Can I recommend you get a packable rain jacket instead? Umbrellas are just a bad invention. Bulky, fragile, take up one hand, cannot protect you from windy rain.

If you need a plausibly-deniable self-defense weapon, get a Maglite.

If you can believe it I’m less likely to put on an extra layer than I am to carry an umbrella out the door. Something about the hassle of donning clothing seems vulgar to me. I prefer to keep it in the closet.

I've had a Totes 731 Stormbeater Golf Umbrella for more than a decade now. Literally caught it on the fly while riding my bike. It's one of those things where you hand just goes up to protect your face, then you realize you caught it and wish it was on video so people would believe it actually happened.

As you might surmise from the fact that it was flying free in a storm, the venting on large umbrellas does not make them perfectly wind proof. I would say that Beaufort 6 still holds "umbrellas used with difficulty." It has a fiberglass or carbon-fiber shaft, I'm not aware of any cane handle umbrellas that have a fiber reinforced shaft. Hope you can find one if that's a hard requirement, but they are pretty common on "golf" umbrellas. I think the canopy arms are also fiber-reinforced plastic on the 731. The tip is hollow plastic, and showing through after a roommate "borrowed" it without asking, and then decided to use it as a walking stick after the rain stopped.

The durability for regular use I wouldn't know, despite it being 15+ years old. I essentially only use it if an elderly relative is visiting and I am walking them to the car in the rain. My wife would normally hold her own umbrella or wear an overcoat. I guess I might go out and greet her with the mega-umbrella if she comes home and was not expecting rain. What is the etiquette now amongst the youths, do men still shelter their dates under a shared umbrella? Or is this just an entry way umbrella you would grab if you need to take the dog for a walk?

Edit: After looking around a bit I think this might be the same umbrella with a traditional handle: https://drivegoods.com/products/totes-jumbo-umbrella I don't see that model on the Totes' website, so it might not be in production anymore though.

What is the etiquette now amongst the youths, do men still shelter their dates under a shared umbrella?

No, because only women have umbrellas anymore. So when it rains the woman opens her umbrella and keeps it, because it’s hers. She’ll share it with her date.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/outdoor-gear/g3088/best-umbrellas/

Can't say I ever use umbrellas. I'd rather just throw on one of those plastic rain coat things.

Where are you going to keep a non-collapsible umbrella?

Collapsible canopy, noncollapsible shaft.

So dating. I'm at a bit of a crossroads. On one hand I want to get married and have kids, so in some sense dating is required for that. On the other, most people I seem to meet through dating apps are not really the kind of person I would like to spend my life with. I have two big requirements: open-minded and physically active, which surprisingly seems to cross out a lot of candidates. Things have been better organically, but those kinds of relationships kind of just "happen". I also subjectively feel extremely busy: I'm working on my PhD, studying for the DELE B2 Spanish Exam, running 50-70 miles a week, and hanging out with my friends. If the right person comes along I'm very willing to sacrifice some of these things, but I feel a bit like I'm wasting my time going on dates with girls from dating apps that I don't end up liking, rather than focusing on job/hobbies/community.

27M living in Baltimore, MD for context. I'm a non-strict vegan (shellfish+honey), and don't care if partner is also vegan. Catholic, but pretty critical of the narrow-mindedness of the church on dogma. Extremely fit endurance athlete. No problem with most drugs, but not a heavy user of anything.

What does theMotte think I should do?

Do you belong to any of the running groups? I used to work at a place on JHU's campus and several coworkers would get to work early to get in a morning run and a shower. By their accounts the running groups were good for running and the people were good people. What about bike party? Or meetups for running in the local parks? Every time I go hiking the mountain bikers and trail runners keep me on my toes.

My husband and I were introduced by a friend. Do your friends know you're looking? Her introduction gave him some credibility. FWIW if I had had a list of what I was looking for in a husband it would not have described him. But he was and is perfect for me.

This area is rolling in Catholics, and I don't know any who are doctrinaire. Drugs will be hit or miss. Seems you either get sure, drugs are great! Or stay away, I have to maintain my clearance.

I would think your biggest problem going to be that a good match for you is likely equally busy and likely avoiding serious commitments because in too many marriages with 2 ambitious people, the woman loses. Any hope of turning a grad school friendship into something?

Try to get a social circle going, mostly girls who party, that way you would be able to meet far more girls and have more friends who will set you up. This is what I would do too, dating apps are terrible, guys usually get girls who look worse than them. Attractive women, even non alcoholic ones visit watering holes, it will take some time out of your life for a year or two but you would not regret it.

Try to meet women through some kind of activity club. Dancing, running, kickball, etc.

Many normal people also don't enjoy dating apps. Especially anyone that isn't just looking for hookups.

If you do insist on using dating apps, try to only reach out to newish looking profiles. They are less likely to be in the hookup cycle.

I've heard a lot of good things about co-ed social sports leagues in terms of meeting dating prospects. Also helps to pre-select for physically active and generally fit women. Even if you don't meet someone, you'll probably have some fun, and worst case, it's easy to bail.

I've done Volo, it's a lot of fun!

Focus on identifying a physically active partner. The right wife for you should follow your lead in regards to open mindedness, I wouldn't filter on this.

Common disinterests can be as important if not moreso than common intrests.

Do you have a timeframe in mind for marriage? Have you been telling people you're looking for a wife and mother of your future children?

No specific time frame in mind for marriage, but I would like to have children before I'm 40. When I've dated people over the past few years it has been with an eye towards marriage, and when it becomes apparent that that is not on the table due to personality/ideological differences, the relationship ends pretty fast.

Thanks for the other advice! I'm finding the open-mindedness thing to be very hard. Woke and catholic women seem to find different parts of my beliefs/personality to be a deal breaker. Perhaps this is just that I'm a). not quite hot/chad enough b). haven't found a woman who likes me enough to look past that stuff.

Woke and catholic women seem to find different parts of my beliefs/personality to be a deal breaker.

I realize I’m asking you to list your flaws, but could you elaborate on your thoughts here?

Personality flaws: The biggest straight-up flaw I have is insecurity. I care too much about what others think, and don't see my own value. I also am quite judgmental, but I don't see this necessarily as a straight up flaw, rather as something I need to keep better to myself. Other things that might be seen as flaws: pretty strict about sleep and exercise, don't own a car for environmental (but also economic) reasons (I have a zipcar membership so this doesn't have to be a problem), I'm also pretty irreverent to authority/ to any particular "team".

Beliefs that might be seen as dealbreakers. Veganism. Certain women want men who are hunt and eat steak, and many others want their husband to be able to cook their favorite dishes, which usually contain meat. I'm open to comprise as long as it doesn't involve me eating meat or animal products, but this isn't always clear on the first date. Catholicism. For woke women it's usually over (how can you hate women and gay people so much). Truth seeking. This goes with the irreverence above. I will not swear forever allegiance to any institution or group that doesn't allow me to update my beliefs based on my experience in the world. This obviously causes problem with catholics (I believe revelation is incomplete and evolving), but also with lots of secular people. A lot of this comes down to keeping my mouth shut, but I have also been burned real hard when I've expressed these kinds of thoughts to people who I thought loved me.

Why are you vegan? Are you open to changing this?

It's frankly too much work to prepare multiple meals regularly. I don't think I could ever date or marry someone who doesn't mostly overlap me in diet, though varying preference rankings are fine.

I am vegan for ethical reasons. Not open to changing this, although I am open to compromises on specific animal products (i.e. will eat eggs if we keep chickens ourselves). I am happy to do all the cooking myself.

ethical reasons

Ethical in what sense? We were given any moving thing that lives. Gen 9:3

I believe God wants us to eat meat.

God only allows humans to eat meat after the Noahide covenant. Before that animals are reserved for burnt offerings. Adam is almost certainly a vegetarian, at least while he lives in the garden. Thus eating meat is another sign of our fall away from grace.

Beyond Christianity there is the inconvenient fact that my lying eyes (and other senses) tell me that animals are like me and experience pain and pleasure and have some form of consciousness. I don't think it's correct to eat human babies for meat, even though they are objectively less conscious than me, nor do I think it's okay to eat retards, who will never be as conscious as me. Without some arbitrary human/animal distinction (which is one of the flaws of christianity IMO) I don't think you can justify one and not the other, at least in my opinion.

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Since you mention potentially wanting to marry and raise kids together, some of those things do sound a bit counter to that.

pretty strict about sleep

This will be a struggle if you ever do have kids, but it just is what it is, they can start trying to sleep through the night at about 6 months.

don't own a car for environmental (but also economic) reasons

My husband didn't have a car when we started living together (Chicago), but you will almost certainly need one if you get a proper household going, with children.

I'm open to comprise as long as it doesn't involve me eating meat or animal products, but this isn't always clear on the first date.

Hm. Yeah. It's really irritating to cook dinner, and then have your man say, no, he's got his own food that's different, enjoy though. It's also pretty irritating to be always cooking vegan food with a side of meat or cheese, though that can depend on what cuisine you both like. Also, only going out to restaurants that serve vegan food makes proposing a place to eat out much harder. I used to keep Orthodox fasts, which are like that, and mostly just didn't eat out. Which was alright, since it was meant to be penitential, but isn't great for dating. Not sure what to do about this.

I will not swear forever allegiance to any institution or group that doesn't allow me to update my beliefs based on my experience in the world.

A big anxiety around this for women is whether they're in danger of losing their belief based community, and if so, what you can replace it with together. One of the big problems of modernity is that there often isn't a replacement, people just become more isolated.

I know sleep is going to be compromised when I have kids. This is fine, and other areas of my life will just have to suffer for a while. I just don't see a need to do this for relatively superficial social reasons.

Car I'm also willing to buy/share when/if I get married. It's not a good investment now, and I have a zipcar membership when I absolutely need it (for a hike or something).

The vegan restaurants issue is not an issue. Because I eat shellfish, there is always something for me, at least around here. What I've done in the past is cook vegan every time my girlfriend is over. She appreciates the cooking even if she isn't vegan herself. In marriage I'll probably continue to do the same. Worst comes to worse I'll have to learn how to cook some amount of meat. Kids are not going to be vegan, at least at first. There are too many open questions about nutrition at that age that I'm not looking to have an argument about.

I think this is a problem with the institution of the Church in the West. There are so many propositions that you have to accept based on blind-faith, many of which I think are incorrect. It doesn't need to be this way. You can have a lot of doctrinal flexibility in your religious community while still maintaining a strong moral core of belief.

The biggest straight-up flaw I have is insecurity.

Meditating, contemplation practise of any kind done over time helped me feel slightly better. Being insecure and judgemental as a guy severely neuters your odds of dating a really hot girl. A mans internals, his status are like a womans look, they make up a big chunk of your attractiveness. You are totally correct to have whatever beliefs you have. A lot of your arguments or bad dates would resolve themselves by

  1. Actively fixing your insecurities. For me, I am unskilled, broke, living in my backward fucking nation and skinny. So I have been trying to do my sabbatical properly, meditate and workout regularly.

  2. Do not take women seriously when they do argue. As you date and sleep with more, you would naturally come to not care about it as much since many times they can be quite unreasonable if they can hint insecurity issues, look up "shit tests". If a girl is catholic, debating with religion is worse than just saying that you are agnostic.

  3. Dating more girls. This solves most issues and is one everyone wants to ignore. The more girls you sleep with and the sooner you do, the easier the entire thing becomes. You become less insecure and figure out a lot of standards you should have you may be unaware otherwise. I got burned fairly hard when I started because I had no standards and was willing to sleep with anyone which counter intuitively nuked my chances. People who have the ability to socialise well, have standards up thier chances by a lot.

I also am quite judgmental

This is terrible for dating, you should not be judgemental at first. Communication between men and women is not verbal, it is mostly non verbal. You cannot be judgemental towards a girl until you spend some time. Just because you are having fun does not mean that you approve of that person in totlaity.

pretty strict about sleep and exercise

This is a good thing, you are not living life in a state of trance and abide by your own princicples strongly. You should be mentally prepared to reduce your time spent running or other activities by a little and adjust your sleep schedule if you want to date for a bit.

I'm also pretty irreverent to authority/ to any particular "team"

This is not a flaw since if you were a diehard adherent to xyz then it would not look good if you were a low level adherent. Though you would eventually need to find a team in general since cooperation is the most important things humans engage in. Truth is a terrible schelling point, in that way I am in the same boat as you.

Oxytocin: Not Even Once!

I’m looking at breaking up with my girlfriend of 4 years and I could use a sanity check. Apologies for the length and I’ll try to keep it down, but I need to explain how the situation I now find myself in developed.

I’d normally run this kind of thing by a close friend, but because of where I live I’m kind of away from my support network, I don’t really have anyone close I’d trust to give good nuanced advice, and I feel like a bit of fool for reasons that should become apparent.

So I moved to a new city as a single man about 5 years ago for a job. I first stayed at airbnb’s, but eventually moved into a shared apartment where I met my now partner. She held the lease and interviewed me for the room. Me, her and another housemate became friends and she spent a fair bit of time introducing the city to me.

We were pretty open about the people we were dating. I wasn’t really attracted to her so it was pretty easy to keep her as a good friend. After a year or so during a dry patch I floated the idea of becoming ‘friends with benefits’ while we weren’t involved in serious relationships. I wasn’t that attracted to her, but I had needs so I’d rather look after that with someone I trusted. She rejected the idea and I didn’t push the issue. We moved on.

I eventually moved to another apartment to live alone, but we remained friends. She would occasionally come over to watch a movie or have a coffee and catch up, or we would go out somewhere or catch up with mutual friends.

Then COVID happened. We were living in a heavily locked down city, but there were allowances for single friends to visit other friends. She would spend a fair bit of time at my apartment as we’d become close friends by this time. This continued for months and then one day through the magic of alcohol we hooked up and she slept over. By the time COVID finished we were practically boyfriend/girlfriend, but we never defined things. At the time I still wanted to keep things casual because I knew I wasn’t really attracted to her even though we had pretty good compatibility in terms of personalities.

Due to inertia and I guess laziness I let the situation continue and found that I didn’t really have the motivation to date other people. Eventually we decided to move in together even though I stressed we might break up or date other people. She was fine with this and wanted to do it for practical and cost saving purposes.

So now its about 4 years since we first hooked up and we’re living together out in the suburbs. We’ve had talks about where we are going and even (minor) breakups over the years. I still have the feeling I’m not really attracted to her and we haven’t had sex in over a year. I kind of don’t want to not just because of the attraction, but that I already feel pair bonded and don’t want to make things worse. The feeling of pair bonding is what I’m struggling with. I genuinely don’t won’t to lose this girl from my life. I love her in a way, but I can’t get over the fact I’m not physically attracted to her.

There are other incompatibility issues largely due to it being and inter-racial relationship. She’s from a SE Asian nation, but is educated (Masters) and proficient in English. She sometimes acts crudely and breaches etiquette in some ways according to my WASP sensibilities. For example, she has overshared personal things about our relationship to friends, family and coworkers that has upset me but she insists its no big deal and is funny. I think a lot of these other things could be overcome with work on the relationship, but not the attraction issue.
But recently I’ve realized that if I don’t make any changes, nothing will change. She and I both want marriage and kids, but I don’t want that with her. The window for this for both of us is closing (late 30’s, early 40’s). So I brought all this up with her a couple of days ago and she didn’t take it well. She thinks I’ll regret this (and I feel like I might) and she regretted ‘wasting’ 4 years with me. We’re currently not talking for the last day or so, but we’ll eventually have to talk about all this.

I guess what I’m asking is for some reassurance. Lack of physical attraction is a deal breaker for marriage right? I feel like I’d regret things if I just got over myself and married her as my best friend. I’ve been turning this over in my mind for weeks, but can’t see another solution besides breaking up. I’m also kicking myself for allowing things to develop like this. COVID really allowed time for pair-bonding in a siloed environment and it snuck up on me. I really feel like shit about this whole thing, particularly about ending it.

I still have the feeling I’m not really attracted to her and we haven’t had sex in over a year.

.... ???? How's she ok with that? How are you ok with that? Sex is indispensable to a good relationship. Puritans would let you divorce if sex wasn't good!

If you aren't too unhappy with her as a person, and she with you.. just declare absolutely zero porn for the next two weeks etc and have some sex, then figure it out.

I'll add my voice to the chorus of people telling you to break up right this instant. It wasn't a terrible mistake to sleep with her the first time, but what were you thinking moving in with her? Good lord your self-esteem must be in the toilet. Try to see if fucking the next girl will fix your problems.

Eventually we decided to move in together even though I stressed we might break up or date other people. She was fine with this and wanted to do it for practical and cost saving purposes… So I brought all this [a potential breakup] up with her a couple of days ago and she didn’t take it well.

anakin_hold_on_this_whole_operation_was_your_idea.png

You preemptively disclaimed that you might break-up or date other people, and she handwaved it away. Well, now you’re at the bridge where you might break-up or date other people.

Not only was your disclaimer contained in the fine-print, it was the title slide in size 48 font. Her inability to manage her own expectations does not constitute an obligation on your part.

>guy I've been seeing on and off warns against living together in case we breakup

>I insist it's fine and that it's just for practical and cost considerations, so we move in together

>no sex for a year, but waiting for him to put a ring on it

>now he's talking about breaking up

>how could he do this to me?

She sometimes acts crudely and breaches etiquette in some ways according to my WASP sensibilities. For example, she has overshared personal things about our relationship to friends, family and coworkers that has upset me but she insists its no big deal and is funny. I think a lot of these other things could be overcome with work on the relationship, but not the attraction issue.

Maybe things such as this could be overcome, maybe not. Maybe it’d be a lifetime of where, anytime you did something that was, in her eyes, cringe, clumsy, embarrassing, weak, or anytime you otherwise somehow fell short of being A Real Man, she runs to her friends, family, and coworkers to gossip about, shame, and mock you. Because it’s no big deal and is funny. You getting upset over it is just another thing for her to snicker over with her family and social circle.

I’ve been turning this over in my mind for weeks, but can’t see another solution besides breaking up. I’m also kicking myself for allowing things to develop like this. COVID really allowed time for pair-bonding in a siloed environment and it snuck up on me. I really feel like shit about this whole thing, particularly about ending it.

Sunk cost. Better to rip off the band aid than let things fester more. She's not entitled to your commitment; you gotta do you and live your best life.

If for some reason you fear you’ll later feel some FOMO or one-itis, keep in mind you can at any moment book a flight to her home SEA country and date and bang chicks a decade or two younger than her, after which you’d hardly feel she were so unique, special, or essential anymore.

Attraction is not a choice. Plus, if it makes you feel better, the lack of attraction sounds bidirectional and always has been.

She was happy to keep you in the friendzone, but then COVID hit. Her dating options limited, one night omg-it-just-like-happened with you after the "magic of alcohol." Having coughed it up to you and with nothing to lose but the opportunity cost of time, and with her clock ticking in her mid-30s+, she thought “eh, he’ll do,” and let the inertia ensue. Who knows what she was doing during the times of your “(minor)" breakups.

You’re not even married and the bedroom’s already been dead for a year. Unless you plan on doing IVF or UberStorking a baby, sex is generally a prerequisite for the children you two want. And at her age, having a child the old-fashioned way could already be tough; two would be a reach. Marrying her could very well still mean zero kids.

The window for this for both of us is closing (late 30’s, early 40’s). So I brought all this up with her a couple of days ago and she didn’t take it well. She thinks I’ll regret this (and I feel like I might) and she regretted ‘wasting’ 4 years with me. We’re currently not talking for the last day or so, but we’ll eventually have to talk about all this.

The window is closing… <Bane Voice> for her. </Bane Voice>

If her window hasn’t closed already, that is. She saying you’ll regret this just sounds like projection, wishcasting, sour grapes, and sowing FUD.

Like you, she chose to spend these four years in this inertial state. It takes two to tango. She’s mad now that her settlement plan might fall through, that she might have to go into hurry-up offense to find a replacement, and she can’t manage the clock by calling time-outs, running pass plays only, running out of bounds, or spiking the football.

This was my favorite comment lol. Oneitis, not even once!

If for some reason you fear you’ll later feel some FOMO or one-itis, keep in mind you can at any moment book a flight to her home SEA country and date and bang chicks a decade or two younger than her, after which you’d hardly feel she were so unique, special, or essential anymore

Yeah lol, SEA is the easiest place in the world to get laid if you are a white or off white. I had married women come up randomly, grind against me in raves whilst their husbands watched and no these were not sex workers. I never slept with one since I do not like asian girls but the stereotypes are true.

So fertility issues, a dead bedroom, loss of attraction, that is three strikes that are dealbreakers.

How can you have oneitis for a girl you're not attracted to? Makes no sense.

Sunk cost + neediness, in ops case sunk cost + proximity. Always default to "good" pua wisdom, not roosh but more like yareally, rsd. I was known as the oneitis guy here back in the day. It's a terrible situation if you are in it, the only way out is fixing your internal issues and having better cuter girls around.

Julien postulated that having a girl around adds meaning to your drab life, it is a way the brain can make existence meaningful. Kids get it for girls they have never spoken to.

Break up asap dude, you continuing to hook up with a girl who you do not wish to date long term is where you messed up imo. Just break up and find another girl, you should be enthusiastic about girls you date seriously, do not let laziness determine your youth dating-wise.

Also, try hooking up with a few girls hotter than her, you would be alright, it is crass but is sane advice because it works for most.

Edit - you have not had sex in a year, have a oneitis, don't find her attractive, looming fertility issues. These are the biggest dealbreakers known to man. Dump her asap man. I cannot imagine having a girl and not having sex with her and only stopping due to time constraints. Good of you for posting this here, the feedback will help.

Lack of physical attraction is a deal breaker for marriage right?

Kinda late for it at this point, but it's honestly a deal breaker for even beginning to date someone for me. I would not enjoy having a partner that I didn't find attractive. I think if I found myself in your position I'd have an equally difficult time, but the answer is still what it is. I don't blame her for being frustrated and insulted by it, but that doesn't really mean it's going to improve.

I haven't actually heard you say why you feel you haven't had sex, explicitly anyway. Could you just choose to do it?

I feel like there is a significant range of attractiveness that isn't sufficient to be all that exciting from a strictly visual standpoint, but is entirely sufficient to want to sleep with someone you love.

I don't think it's as obvious as others seem to that not sleeping together for one year is immediately a problem. I would happily take the least attractive of my exs' bodies with my favorite ex's personality over the reverse.

Could you just choose to do it?

This is what confuses me about this whole thread. I feel like if went through a year long dry spell I could, more-or-less, shag anything. Strong physical attraction would not at all be a requirement in that case. Assuming no drastic shift in libido on my part, no extreme physical deformities, not morbidly obese, no disturbing fetish stuff. Is it possible that the porn use is actually excessive, and it's killing the ability to perform when it's time to get it on IRL? It seems like it's too late now, but what would have happened if OP just initiated at month 6, then closed their eyes and though of "England"? Is that less healthy than relying on porn 100%?

I feel like if went through a year long dry spell I could, more-or-less, shag anything.

Amen. Been there, shagged that.

I don't think it's as obvious as others seem to that not sleeping together for one year is immediately a problem. I would happily take the least attractive of my exs' bodies with my favorite ex's personality over the reverse.

This kind of thing is what stalled my leaving earlier. I really enjoy her personality, but there's a small voice inside that says I'd regret staying in this relationship for life. I feel bad and keep wondering if I'm making a mistake because I enjoy her personality so much. Like if I was in my 60's I'd stay, but not in my 40's. I'm basically making do with porn to get my needs met. She's kind of accepting of that even though we haven't discussed it.

Like if I was in my 60's I'd stay, but not in my 40's.

I think this would be a more compelling argument if you were in your 20s, or mayyyybe your 30s. Unless she's super hideous, I have to think you could enjoy fucking her. It sounds like you've done it enough times that revealed preferences say you like it plenty.

If you're super hot and expect to do really well on the dating market, and enjoy the idea of starting over with a new person, then...my advice is still "you're old, the ship sailed, make the best of it." But I guess it'd be more reasonable in that circumstance to try again, at least.

I really enjoy her personality

Like if I was in my 60's I'd stay, but not in my 40's.

If your only problem with her really is her body, then I'll go against the grain and suggest that you consider staying with her and practicing… limited monogamy or, well, monogamy as much of the world understands it.

This suggestion probably offends middle-class Anglo sensibilities, as they are really big on the whole "cheating is the absolute worst thing you can do to your partner" puritan morality (many people are saying that this and the fact that pretty much everyone on r/DeadBedrooms is from an Anglo country are somehow connected, but I guess We'll Just Never Know), as well as rationalist sensibilities that suggest always telling the Truth, circumstances be damned, but women with great personalities are in much shorter supply than those with great bodies, and you may indeed end up regretting your choice as you sift through Tinder trying to find someone tolerable, much less a woman whose personality you actually enjoy and can see yourself marrying. I think before you pull the trigger on the decision, it is important to at the very least honestly assess how likely you are, realistically, to find and attract someone who has both the looks and the personality, if that is something you value highly.

Chances are your partner will understand if you discretely get a side piece for your sexual needs (especially if she's from SEA, where it is largely tolerated, if not expected of married men), as long as you put your familial responsibilites first. Just don't do it in the retarded poly way, absolutely no one without severe autism and/or 5+ years of reading LW enjoys having their loved one announce "ok, honey, I'm gonna go bang a hot piece of ass that is 15 years your junior and has humongous tits, have a good night and see you tomorrow!", and arguably not even they do. She may even intuit that your weekly poker nights with the boys aren't necessarily about poker or spent with the boys – that's fine and in fact still very much preferable and less hurtful compared to just coming out and saying it.

Thanks for exploring this option. I probably won't go down this path, but its been niggling at the back of my mind and it deserves consideration. We did kind of discuss non-monogamy about a year ago and she subtly communicated she would tolerate the 'don't let me find out what you're doing and escorts only (eg no emotions)'.

I don't think I could do it because that's not the sort of marriage I want, even though its a pragmatic solution.

we haven’t had sex in over a year

Unless one or both of you:

  • is asexual
  • has some kind of medical condition
  • has some kind of mental illness
  • is going through some long-term personal extenuating circumstances (e.g. bereavement)

This is game over, right off the bat. I don't even need to hear anything else about your relationship - I already know it's not working.

It's over broski. Its only so many years you can hide this. One day it will rear it's head and that day won't be pretty for either of you.

Cut your losses short now. And don't repeat this mistake ever again.

How did they even get to last a year? I get pretty intense and if I don't have any orgasm for 1-2 months. How do you go a full year without going crazy?

Erm, I don't want to be that corvus but, well, having been in your shoes and then having gone without orgasm, sex, sexual activity, masturbation, etc. for over a year myself along with quite a few stretches of several months, I can say that in my case it was kinda like a mental and emotional switch that flipped inside my head. What was once the biological imperative is now a potentially interesting, but also potentially entangling option that I can choose to pursue, or, y'know, not.

One day it will rear it's head and that day won't be pretty for either of you.

This feels like that day. I feel like I'm vomiting up something long suppressed and I feel pretty bad about it.

And don't repeat this mistake ever again.

I will never ever EVER date a woman I don't find marriage material ever again. EVER! It's just not worth it.

Seems like a breakup is overdue. Marriage without physical attraction in that age bracket seems pretty miserable - don't do it. Especially not out of habit. I know what I'm talking about.

FWIW, you made a pretty big mistake, but it takes two. As long as you didn't intentionally misdirect her, you can share the blame equally.

Marriage without physical attraction in that age bracket seems pretty miserable - don't do it.

I'd be interested if you expand on this a bit. Like OP is early 40's and, uh GF?, is late 30's. At what point is it normal for sex drive to appreciably decline. Somehow I thought that 45 is early, but not supper early, for menopause to begin.

I would have thought that there are healthy marriages, where both people have taken good care of themselves and look good for their age, but neither is close to their objective peak physical attractiveness. Is the expectation that experience and comfort with self/partner makes up for not being as young and hot? That the attractiveness is found in the intimacy of knowing your partner so well.

Surely it's unreasonable to expect your partner to be as physically attractive, with respect to sexual intimacy, as she approaches 40 then when she was 24. What's reasonable to expect? Do you need like > 80% physically attraction relative to the hottest young thing, or just some irreducible quantum of attraction that you share with each other?

Surely it's unreasonable to expect your partner to be as physically attractive, with respect to sexual intimacy, as she approaches 40 then when she was 24.

I've been with girls who have aged over time and it's been fine. The initial attraction stays and is kind of grandfathered in to the relationship. That isn't the case here. I wasn't really attracted to her physically to begin with.

Horniness is best modeled as declining linearly from relationship debut. Like baseball pitcher velocity.

Is it?

Married 20 years this year, no real decline yet.

Yes, that's my opinion. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about how often you make love to your wife, or the raw hormonal horniness underlying it, especially as the two are both obviously separate and almost impossible to parse.

That was actually a very helpful analogy. I think?

So in a healthy relationship, you might start the game throwing 96. Coach will leave you in in the 8th, throwing in the high 80s, so you can get the shutout. But in OPs case he's getting pulled in the third because he made the start hanging balls over the plate, and has loaded the bases with zero outs.

I think I still don't understand exactly what slope of decline is the normal range, but in this case I guess it doesn't matter because the starting intercept is zero.

Moreso a joke about aging curves in baseball.

A 22 year old Dominican flamethrower who sits at 96 and can reach for 100 in a big spot, at 28 he's probably sitting 93 and can still reach for 97 when he needs it, and at 33 his fastball is 90-91 and if he's serviceable at all it's by learning to rely on location and clever breaking balls to trick hitters rather than blowing by them with raw stuff. He might actually peak as a pitcher in quality at 27, when he's got the best mix of velocity and experience, and he might keep pitching to 35, but almost never will he add velocity in his career.

A 24 year old clever college lefty who debuts with a fastball that never breaks 92 and starts by relying on tricking hitters, at 32 he is going to be sitting at 86 and throwing batting practice. He started by sneaking by, and pretty soon there just isn't enough there to work with.

To return to relationships, if you meet your partner and start making love, you're never going to exceed the raw attraction and numbers you had then. There's no trick to it, you're just never going to be as horny for each other as you were then. The sex might get better over time in quality, but sheer desire will never exceed the start.

And if you started at fucking twice a day every day can't get enough of each other, then ten years down the road the decline will still keep you at a place where experience and tricks can carry you. Where if you started at "meh I guess if it's convenient" the decline quickly leaves you at zero. You're almost never going to add attraction during the course of the relationship.

Where if you started at "meh I guess if it's convenient" the decline quickly leaves you at zero. You're almost never going to add attraction during the course of the relationship.

Pretty much. I didn't find an increase in attraction, but the sex (when we had it) did get better due to comfort and experience.

I think I still don't understand exactly what slope of decline is the normal range, but in this case I guess it doesn't matter because the starting intercept is zero.

It's gender dependent, though highly variable. As a relationship ages, women tend to lose interest in sex more than men. That's why lesbian bed death happens.

Even at the beginning of a relationship, men tend to initiate sex most of the time. As the relationship goes on, this becomes more like all the time. Since OP isn't attracted to his partner, this is why the sex is zero.

Obviously, everyone is different and there's some small percent of women are who extremely horny. That presents other problems though.

[Insert Performance Enhancing Drugs joke]

I'm no biologist or doctor. I'm just pretty sure that 30s-40s is well within the region in which one can still expect a lot of sex to happen, under normal circumstance.

More generally, your partner and yourself will both age. Maybe the one ages more gracefully than the other thanks to superior genetics, in which case yeah, unless the difference is truly extreme it's just plain good sense to live with it if that's the whole of the problem. But obviously one's standards should adjust themselves with age and the passage of time.

What's unreasonable to expect is that your partner just lets herself go like a sack of potatoes and you tolerate it indefinitely.

This...probably doesn't provide much value to you as far as answers go, but it's close to everything I have to say on the subject.

She hasn't really let herself go. Small amount of weight gain, but nothing out of the ordinary. I just don't want to have sex with her. I can't blame her for that. I shouldn't be here in the first place.

"I'm getting 3 out of 10, elbows too pointy" vibes, unless there's a serious facial deformity involved.

I didn't mean to imply as much. Sorry, I just piggybacked off of your topic to ride my hobby horse.

Speaking as someone in that age bracket, I don't think the attractiveness of myself and my wife has changed dramatically from our mid-20s. We're both plainly older than we were a decade and a half ago, but just as slim and fit as ever, and with the added benefit of much better sartorial taste and the money to support it. I'm not saying there's no difference, but our attraction to each other and likely to others hasn't changed dramatically over the years.

I do think this is a basically reasonable expectation and as I've aged, I've become surprised by how willing other people are to become frumpy at such a young age and just chalk it up to age rather than their sedentary lifestyle and disinterest in style.

Yes, it's a dealbreaker, but your friendship is over. You might like her, but from her perspective, you've been using her for sex to tide yourself over while leading her on with the impression you were in a relationship that was going somewhere, and she's not really wrong.

This is too harsh. OP was not using her. She has agency. And, of course, the time to have kids is way before age 38.

She has agency, but so does anyone being deceived or misled.

I never deceived her and she tells me that I've been clear about not wanting a serious relationship with her from the beginning. She told me she hoped that I would change my mind when I raised all this with her a few days ago.

I'll agree there's a certain sub-communication to agreeing to move in with someone that I'll have to wear.

I'll tell ya that you can be right, but I wouldn't hang your hat on it.

The difference between guys who have a "piece of shit" reputation and those who don't is that the latter are better at figuring out when women, for some reason or the other, are not acting in their best interests when it comes to the relationship.

You can be banging a woman you see no future with, she'll be down all the time, but her friends will let you know she needs commitment or bust.

I've been in shoes much like yours. I've broken up with people I'm really into, that I sent mixed signals to, but it wasn't a permanent thing. Better late than never - and y'all should definitely formally break up.

I don't think you had nefarious intentions, but yeah, the communication was not good and you let her believe what she wanted to believe and to some degree I think you had to know what she was hoping for. People will say that's on her, and that's also true, which is why being straightforward is pretty important. People shouldn't fool themselves, and they also shouldn't let other people fool themselves (not if you want to feel like you were being above board about the whole thing).

I don't think you're a bad guy here,.but I doubt the situation, or your friendship, is salvageable.

Things have evolved far beyond sex. It's emotions now, with no sex involved. I wouldn't have believed that you could partner with someone so closely without sex unless I had experienced it.

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