fribble
20d ago
My daughter's in college, and based on the Facebook parent groups, having your daughter tracked with a phone app is completely reasonable, and not some bizarre invasion of privacy for an 18-22 yr old. I understand we've extended childhood, but if my 18-22 yr old can't navigate college without me knowing her location every single second, I've failed. When young adults, who should still be in their "nothing can harm me" phase, are so willing to surrender independence in the name of safety, it seems to signal something seriously wrong.
And back to the child thing. How does a 22 year old go from "my parents are tracking me on my phone" to "I'm ready to marry and be totally responsible for an infant" without it taking years?
fribble
21d ago
I loved my husband. He loved me. We wanted to spend our lives together. Marriage provided a legal structure to that decision, and offered protections that living together wouldn't. We didn't even have the "do you want kids" conversation until we'd been married several years, and were fortunately on the same page when we got to it. OTOH, both of our siblings married specifically with child-bearing in mind.
IME, religious weddings seem to focus a lot more on the idea that marriage exists for kids. Health insurance, property inheritance, SS, medical care decisions, and specifically committing to building a life together with someone you love and respect were plenty of motivation for us.
fribble
21d ago
It's not impossible. It is hard. I have one kid. I am a programmer, so work in male dominated environments. There was no work support for a lactating mother. Fortunately I was senior so had flexibility in schedule and an office. But I had to pump every 2 hours. I could do that because my job allowed for it. A litigator would have had a much harder time. I could bail on work for random sick or injured kid needs (spouse work wasn't as flexible). When we had a childcare problem, my 4 yr old spent a month at work with me, hanging out under my desk until I got it sorted. Doctors or lawyers would likely have had a harder time with that. These things are the sorts of things that kill a woman's career. I could struggle through with one. More than one? Unlikely. I could struggle through as a senior in a flexible career. Not a senior or in a less flexible career? Unlikely. If my spouse had had a less demanding career and was able to be more helpful it would have been easier, but in my experience women with excellent career options tend to be married to men with equivalent or better options.
fribble
21d ago
But you have several children in an environment where you're bucking the trend. Maybe such a recognition would be more aimed at encouraging people like me (one and done) to have more? Wouldn't have worked. I know my limits. But I know folks who wavered on the second/third who might have been budged by messaging that doing so was "good" in some way. I wonder though if making access to fertility treatments cheaper/easier might not work more if you want more kids. While having kids younger would make some of that less necessary, at our current state of later marriages and child bearing, it has to play a significant role.
fribble
21d ago
I had my kid about 10 years after I got married. I wouldn't say it's common to wait that long after marriage but if you add dating + marriage, several friends fall into a similar time frame. I am not blue tribe, some friends are, some aren't. It's not that weird to marry to commit to your spouse, especially for those of us who are secular. Children are a separate choice.
fribble
1mo ago
I live in a blue state in the US. My kid graduated from high school in 2021. There was still a ton of covid hysteria during that time and we were supposed to be thankful the school allowed an outdoor graduation ceremony. (No prom. No other activities. Just junior and senior year in her room. No surprise that southern colleges were popular among her cohort and remain so now. Or that her cohort might be even more distrustful of authority than their gen x parents.) Her classmates that went to North Eastern colleges spent their freshman year (21-22) still masking, some still with predominantly virtual schooling. This year, my employer still wanted people with covid to report it to their hotline, even if we were full time working from home. A lot of people are still giving every appearance of still worrying a great deal about covid.
fribble
1mo ago
I think hers was an extreme case. Every single sinus cavity she had was full of gunk and had been for years. And I think she was really sensitive to pain in her face. She also ended up with necrotic uvula (no big deal, the dead bit falls off, but it was additional pain).
Good pain meds would have been nice. But a humidifier and heat and ice packs and parents at her beck and call worked. The surgery worked wonders but I think it's definitely worth it to try other possible solutions first.
fribble
1mo ago
My kid had her sinuses drilled out this past summer. Her ENT is cautious, so prior to surgery he had her take targeted antibiotics based on the infection(s) in her head. He had her treat her allergies. He did steroid treatments. She cut out potential triggers (dairy, sugar, wheat). But after a few years of throwing things at it and the concrete junk in her sinuses not clearing out, surgery it was. It was out patient. She was in significant pain for a week and then was generally exhausted and spacey for another few weeks. But she can breathe now. She doesn't have constant pain in her face. She doesn't catch every bug that comes along. She can get sick without bleeding out of her eyes (cool party trick!)
I recommend seeing an ENT. You can probably find one who will jump straight to surgery, but it might be worth making sure none of the "easier" things will fix it. My kid was truly miserable for about a week and my husband was almost to the point of calling her doc and begging for pain meds beyond Motrin + Tylenol. OTOH months later she's glad she had the surgery and seems to have halfway forgotten how miserable she was while healing.
fribble
4mo ago
I wish it were wildly out of date.
Girls and women are very clearly told that what we wear makes us responsible for men's behavior towards us.
See the comment above: "Wearing clothing that draws attention to your sexual characteristics and then complaining when people give you sexual attention (eg, lewding, catcalling) is sexual harassment. On your end. You initiated it, you are responsible for it."
What's clothing that draws attention to our sexual characteristics? Anything that makes it clear we have breasts, legs, butt, any part of our anatomy a man might find arousing.
fribble
4mo ago
No, what I wear is clothing. Your interpretation is your problem. Your behavior is yours to control.
You can be sexually stimulated without acting on it (physically or vocally).
fribble
4mo ago
It's generally not actually stated in those stark terms, these days. People try to avoid being seen to blame the victim. But the subtext is definitely still there more often than it should be.
One of my husband's acquaintances is That Guy. The guy who says he can't help but leer at women on the beach, because of what they're wearing (actually on the beach). Not notice and keep it in mind for later thinking or whatever over, but rudely staring in a creepy way. Who'll defend his behavior, because she's wearing a two piece, or is particularly well endowed, or whatever excuse to make his behavior absolutely outside of his control, because of her.
Every single woman I know has been told, more than once, to change what she's wearing because it'll send the wrong message. Which is goofy, because we also know we're going to get catcalled/propositioned/groped wearing a hoodie and jeans, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.
fribble
4mo ago
Men used to wear ties when out and about, just like women used to wear skirts and hose. It wasn't just for presumably formal occasions like a wedding.
fribble
4mo ago
I think there's a decent argument that while not wearing a tie is declining formality, forgoing an undershirt is forgoing modesty.
fribble
4mo ago
In the past 5+ years, I've never had a conversation about fashion expectations with a woman where she expressed frustration towards modesty standards (either too much or too little).
I may be misunderstanding you; let me know if I am. I don't know a women who isn't frustrated with the clothing available, and it's not all about pockets. I cannot easily find a shirt that isn't too low cut / designed to expose more of my chest than I typically prefer. Tshirts or fairly masculine tailored button downs are pretty much the only shirts I can depend on to meet my preferences. And hemlines are incredibly short. I can either go with long-and-flowy don't show an inch of skin, which tends to be too frilly and feminine for my preferences, or "this is so short it may not be long enough to cover my backside when sitting down" which is ridiculous. Apparently, wanting fabric to extend to my knees or there-abouts is too demanding.
But, I'm not sure I'd talk about these issues in regards to "modesty" because that term isn't really something I talk about much. I'd call it preference, or style. Modesty's part of it, but outside of a religious context I just don't see that term in use.
fribble
4mo ago
In the past cultures have put guidelines on a woman's appearance, without negotiating with women about it. And now the shoe is simply on the other foot: women's visible sexual qualities are a man's problem, and he should simply ignore the bombardment of visual stimulation as women largely fail to realize just how potent the stimuli are because men have been socialized into silence on the matter. There's gotta be something in the middle.
Why do you think women fail to realize that men are visually stimulated? We're told this constantly. We're told that if a man acts out, it's because of what a woman wore, how she looked. Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?
Given different cultural standards in modesty and dress, I don't believe that cleavage, breasts, legs, or any particular piece of a woman's body is just instant "brain off, hormones gone crazy" for men. It's all what we're used to.
fribble
4mo ago
What advice would you give to someone who complained about a coworker who wore well-tailored slacks?
fribble
4mo ago
I can understand. I disagree - I really don't want to go back to the requirements of my youth of wearing hose over any bared leg and having to do my hair in something more presentable than a pony tail. But I understand people who think we're all a too slovenly.
Things have changed pretty quickly. I remember when my mom first wore jeans outside of the house/yard. Now my kid'll wear sweat pants in public. 3 generations - from skirts and hose in public to PJ bottoms.
fribble
4mo ago
Regular, every day, lift and separate bras don't immobilize breasts. They still move. But yes, they visibly move less than braless breasts do.
Do you think it's the movement that draws the eye, or that OP expects women to be wearing a bra, and is drawn to the deviation from his standard? (Or embrace the power of "and.")
fribble
4mo ago
My husband and I are both readers. "Beach reads" drown out a lot of what's available, and are female dominated. My fiction (political thrillers, historical fiction, mysteries) span both male and female, and generally published from major publishing houses. Political thrillers and historical fiction leaning hard into military historical fiction are pretty male. Mysteries and historical fiction leaning into biographical is more female. My husband reads niche horror (e.g. Thomas Ligotti) and well-crafted small press publications (e.g. Centipede Press, Cemetery Dance, Subterranean Press), and he'd say they're pretty male. Maybe find some small presses?
fribble
4mo ago
As a quick note, my comment about girls and boys expressing sexual interest was a response to a claim that women's bodies are more inherently sexual and that even straight women find them so. Which I disagree with and think is an opinion formed from differences in how men and women are taught to express their sexual interest (or not).
I appreciate your more extended comment, but it's a riff in a different direction (I may get back to it - I have to be amused at your perception of me first).
fribble
4mo ago
This is fascinating. As a breast haver and occasional bra wearer, my perspective is that wearing a bra makes my breasts more pronounced. And I am just talking regular bras, not any fancy gravity defying wizard bra. When I am not wearing a bra, you can see my breasts as forms under my shirt, but they don't pop out, they aren't molded into stereotypical half domes thrust out from my chest.
fribble
4mo ago
Covering women's areolas and nipples has been used as a work around for women going topless, leading me to believe those are the areas of primary concern when people talk about bras and modesty. Since typical bras accentuate and highlight breasts, rather than minimize them, and wearing a bra is considered more modest than not wearing a bra (by the OP) that is potentially the case here. It's weird. More clothes is generally considered more modest than fewer clothes, but bras specifically highlight breasts, you would think people who think of bras as for modesty would be arguing for binding, not bras. Bras accentuate the form, they don't conceal it.
So from my perspective if the concern is nipples, bra or not isn't going to change what people see of mine. And braless-me is less breasts-forward than bra-me is.
fribble
4mo ago
I am a straight woman. I might find particular anatomy aesthetically pleasing, and culturally that might be more true of traditionally female anatomy (I don't know that this is true but it doesn't matter), but a man's body is infinitely more sexually appealing to me than a woman's body. I don't think I am an outlier among straight women in this regard. I also think it's true that straight women are unlikely to be as open, perhaps outside of other straight women, as men are about these things. But I think that's cultural - women who indicate sexual interest, desire, or awareness are sluts and sluts are bad. Girls learn to control themselves and comport themselves appropriately. I am convinced boys are also capable of this, even though our society does not require it of them. However I also think it's perfectly good for girls to comfortably express sexual desire and interest, so rather than have boys learn the self control and denial we impose on girls perhaps we loosen up a bit on expressions of female sexual interest and tighten up a bit on expressions of male sexual interest.
No one in my experience of raising my child let very young teens babysit. I babysat when I was young, but I am genx. I would have been considered a neglectful mother if I had ever allowed someone younger than college aged and infant/child CPR certified to watch my genz child. Several of her peers - a couple of whom are now in Ivy League schools - weren't allowed to cook anything on the stove in HS ... You think those parents would have allowed a 14 yr old to babysit a 2 yr old (with their child on either side)?
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