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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   1886 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for September 18, 2024

The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:

  • Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.

  • Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.

  • Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.

  • Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).

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My father is dying from atherosclerosis. He's in his mid 70s and having regular strokes and heart attacks. It seems like every year there's a new stent, and every time he's in the hospital it takes some of his remaining vitality away.

I'd like to avoid the same outcome! My LDL cholesterol levels are slightly elevated and I am about 40. I was taking low dose statins, but my doctor declined to renew my prescription based on a risk model that (correctly) calculates my risk of a cardiac event in the next ten years being low. However, my understanding is that the mechanical damage of arterial plaque build up is happening right now, and it's that plaque deposition that will eventually give me the cardiac events that will kill me.

I'm seeing from Peter Attia and others a focus on ApoB LDL lipoproteins in particular cause atherosclerosis and he insists that crushing your ApoB levels will eliminate the risk of heart disease. Other health influencers dispute this, and I'm not really sure who to believe.

I'm wondering if anybody else has investigated the various claims around preventing atherosclerosis and has strong opinions on them. If there is some good evidence that a therapy could work without much risk of side-effects, the upside could be substantial.

/conspiracy theory

every time i post on 4chan i get a captcha that is almost impossible to solve

i wrote a pro-jewish post in a 4chan thread about hezbollah and didn't receive a captcha

is it possible 4chan has a LLM that rates posts according to some hidden criteria and requests a captcha based on this

it could also be a weird coincidence and maybe 4chan has completely disabled their captcha because the 4chan captcha is very use hostile

There’s been a lot of weird stuff on 4chan lately. I’m pretty sure all the top level posts are created by the janitors now, and they immediately slide or prune any organic top level posts made by anons. They’re now taking steps to make posting as difficult as possible: long wait times, more difficult captchas, range banning entire IPs. Except those restrictions only apply to organic posters, the actual shills post just as much as they did before with ease. I think someone is attempting to turn 4chan into a consensus manufacturing bot-farm like Reddit, or to just make it so unpleasant to use that everyone leaves.

Or just a way to sell more VIP passes? I dont think they make much from ad revenue, so those are the only thing funding the site

Sometimes I appreciate her steady self confidence. Other times, I am frustrated by her lack of brutal drive to self improvement.

If you expect to find a woman who would never frustrate you, will be perfect in every regard, who would never do anything to piss you off and do everything exactly right and exactly like you want it - that's not going to happen. People are imperfect, and they are imperfect in a myriad different ways. There's no way a real person would be exactly perfect complement to all your wishes. The real test is whether you want to stay together despite all the rough spots. When it's obvious to you that what you're getting out of the relationship vastly exceeds the blemishes.

And yes, a part of you wants excitement and novelty. But you can find it in other things. Part of you would be scared at the thought of spending the rest of your life (or at least a very very long portion of it) with the same person. But if you feel good around this person, maybe it's not that bad an idea, actually? As a person who's been married for over 20 years, you can't keep the excitement of the first years on the same level, but you can transform it into different forms and different things. Of course, it's on you to decide if this relationship is what you actually want. But you should also be realistic and not expect things that can not happen, and be ready for work and frustrations which are a normal part of life and relationship. Don't be afraid of doubts, but also be honest with yourself and recognize what your true feelings and needs are.

The real test is whether you want to stay together despite all the rough spots. When it's obvious to you that what you're getting out of the relationship vastly exceeds the blemishes.

I am reminded of this line from The Wise Man's Fear:

"Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect."

I loved this line when I read it, because I think it nicely encapsulates what marriage needs to have. You need to love someone, warts and all, or it simply isn't gonna work.

Let me ask you the question others have asked only implicitly: was there a woman in the past, whether your affection was required or unrequited, who you felt was truly interesting, truly desirable? It’s not about her, and you make that clear enough. But it might be about the idea of her.

you have a catch, friendo

my only caution is, as a long distance thing you kind of still are on your best behavior when you're around each other and aren't really experiencing what the other is actually like on an every day basis

so, I might not consider engagement until you've spent 6 months together in the same place

Is it possible to be weighing engagement vs breaking up at the same time ?

That's the only way to be. You should always, after maybe a month, be considering marriage, and if there's not a realistic path to marriage breaking up.

Certainly when you're at the point where you're ring shopping, if you're not gonna pull the trigger you should break up.

The alternative is weighing engagement versus wasting her time.

You could be describing my wife there. I am very happy to be married to her.

Short answer: Yes, it's human to think about these things.

Longer answer: For what it's worth, I had similar feelings, occasionally, before getting married. Almost 10 years in now and it's good stuff.

My experience with all relationships and partners is you have to choose what's important to you. Nobody rolls nat 20s on all their stats. Do you want a sharp-tongued, aggressively driven woman? Prepare to be exhausted fighting about stupid shit and being emasculated every once in a while. Do you want a demure mother of your children? Prepare to have to be exhausted leading the household all of the time. Do women want a ripped god? Well then he'll be eating like a bird and working out all the time. Do you want material comfort and money? He may not be as attractive as the former.

Consider those pros and cons and what is truly important to you. Bluntly, I am primarily driven by sex and did not optimize enough on this parameter when selecting a partner, and overshot on almost everything else. What is the evergreen desire you want out of your relationship? And for the love of god, shuck away the confines of what "the culture" demands of you. You are under no obligation to get married because you've dated for a while, and you're under no obligation to marry some uber-female who puts you in your place all the time.

Is there a defined end date to the long distance? Have you dated in-person for most of the relationship? How is the sex (Note that this is separate from physical attractiveness)? Have you dated someone previously who gave you the "Jazz" you're looking for?

Other times, I am frustrated by her lack of brutal drive to self improvement. ... Shes objectively achieved enough that her intelligence is not up for question, but other times Im dissastisfied with the lack of sharp off the cuff retorts that ive come to expect from my male friends.

Gross. This isn't real. You don't want a wife who's like one your your guy friends. You don't want your wife to be a sarcastic, grindsetting bro.

As i read this, I know I sound like a manic pixie dream boy. But, the brain wants what it wants.

I wanted a manic pixie dream girl, the girl I married isn't anything like that, I had real axiety briefly while dating her about that, I made the best decision in the world.

Logistically, we're very long distance and will last another year, which is the biggest issue.

This is the only objection you've raised that is legit. Also, could a source of you lack of investment be related to a lack of real chemical interaction?

Is it possible to be weighing engagement vs breaking up at the same time ?

It's quite sensible; when you know your SO well enough to decide whether you want to spend your life with them, the best answers are "yes" or "no", not "no but I'll waste both our time dragging things out anyway".

Sometimes I appreciate her steady self confidence. Other times, I am frustrated by her lack of brutal drive to self improvement.

Pros: she's confident

"Cons": she's not brutally driven

her intelligence is not up for question, but other times Im dissastisfied with the lack of sharp off the cuff retorts

Pros: she's intelligent

"Cons": she's not sharp-tongued

the brain wants what it wants.

It is definitely possible that you're not the kind of person who can be happy forever with her, and I certainly don't know you or her well enough to say you are ... but it says something that you were trying to lay down criticisms and your top three were one triviality plus two humblebrags.

The relationship feels like coasting. And some part of my brain wants jazz.

Jazz gets a lot of value out of tension and dissonance, but like any music the trick is the balance between tension's creation and its release. If you've got a partner who consistently relieves tension, then finding tension elsewhere (e.g. from your own hopefully-not-quite-brutal drive to self-improvement) is going to be much easier and more productive than the alternative of demanding/creating tension in your closest relationship.

(not to be mistaken for the alternative of creating tension via your closest relationship - I wonder if humans are ill-adapted to handle a "feels like coasting" malaise phase because historically we'd have all the tension we could want from the "when will baby start sleeping through the night and my brain fog go away" phase sooner)

Other times, I am frustrated by her lack of brutal drive to self improvement. Shes objectively achieved enough that her intelligence is not up for question, but other times Im dissastisfied with the lack of sharp off the cuff retorts that ive come to expect from my male friends.

Honestly, sounds like you have been mind-killed by modern media. Real, actually living women are like this. From this comment and other comments sounds like you have a great catch.

Hah I'm in the same place except... definitely some problems/red flags. But they came up after I proposed.

What are they, if you don’t mind sharing?

DM me if you're curious

Im younger, less long distance, not about to engage, but otherwise in the exact same boat. I have nothing helpful to say sorry. My current thinking is that this is just something introspective people have to suffer through.

Sometimes i whish she gave me a reason to break up with her. Maybe i need to be challenged by my partner in order to have something else to pour energy in. I love putting energy into the relationship.

I've never experienced this, but I have experienced similar internet threads.

You're probably not going to have a deep intellectual connection with a woman. The idea that your partner should be your best friend, soul mate, sexual muse, etc... it's a bizarre modern fetish. Get more male friends and focus on the unique things that your partner provides which friends cannot. Cherish the differences between men and women. But don't ask her to be a man.

Long distance is a problem. I'd try to solve that immediately.

If she's someone who is easy to be with, who wants kids, and would be a great mother, then you are like 90% of the way there.

I've had deep intellectual connections with several women over the years. Probably more women than men, if I'm honest. None of them were sexual relationshipa, however. I also don't know if any of them would have been the type to post in a forum like this. Sorry it always seems rather shortsighted to me to make these kind of pronouncements. I will concede that one might not want a romantic partner to also be someone with whom one has constant deep reflective talks.

Yeah I'd say just go for it man. Moving in will make a lot of things clearer.

Yeah, sorry, this sounds like a no-brainer. Don't fall for modern soul mate propaganda. Especially if you're here, chances are you're prone to over-thinking and to be over-critical. Objectively, the things you worry about are absurdly rare in women, to the degree that any women exhibiting these traits will most likely have something wrong with them. If you want kids, you ought to want a great women, not an even greater man with tits.

Also, I know it sounds unromantic, but long-term what matters is to find a person you can respect, whose quirks you can tolerate each day again and again, and who is attractive enough that you like having sex (and vice versa, of course). Love at first sight, deep intellectual connection, sharp humor, extreme attractiveness, spontaneity, all those things that romantic movies push are certainly nice extras, but don't really matter much in the long run.

Or to put it in a bit more romantic terms: It's not the love you start with that matters, it's the love you learn.

Yeah, she's practical and low drama to an astounding degree. She'd be a genuinely great mother. (Like GOAT level) And she is admittedly very easy to be around.

high IQ wife who wants kids ..

So... what are you holding out for? Just move and if doesn't work out so be it.

I think my hair is starting to thin in front. I'm seeing more scalp than I used to through my hair, depending on lighting. It's not at problematic levels yet, but most likely will be eventually I would think.

Finasteride seems to be the gold standard answer, but the side effects are a hard no for me right now. Accepting a lower libido and ED to preserve my hair is like taking the engine out of my car to preserve the paint; and at any rate I'm not even trying anything right now if it might impact fertility even a little.

What are the current best options people are aware of?

Whatever you do, just remember that the correct time to start shaving your head is about two years before you finally start shaving your head.

Just use minoxidil? It takes longer to show effects, but it dodges most of the negative side effects of finasteride, such as your dick not working. I know that's my first port of call if my hair does begin balding.

Topical finasteride. Less of it gets in the bloodstream (some still does of course). Use this in conjunction with minoxidil and micro needling. I've seen a lot of regrowth over the past few months using this, don't even look like I'm thinning anymore.

Iiuc finasteride is effective down to tiny doses so side effects are not guaranteed.

They're never guaranteed, it varies by person, but at this particular moment in my life they aren't an option. Maybe in nine months I'll feel differently...

More likely I'll be following @100ProofTollBooth into leaving the 1-guard on my Wahl every morning.

Presumably you can just stop taking it if you suffer from the side effects.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=AD-E2B5GfI8 Works well

If you have a good jawline, you don't need a beard. A lot of guys who have bad jawlines grow a beard so they can style it in such a way as to feign a square jawline.

If you have a bad jawline. 1) Lose weight. But if you just have an unfortunate facial structure due to genet-- nobody cares!

Be fit. Find a style that works for you. You're good to go.

I can't really grow any facial hair, unfortunately. Best I can do is a faint pencil mustache.

A good barber.

It's possible to style your hair well at any stage of hair loss. Most men don't. They simply keep styling their thinning hair in the same way they styled their non-thinning hair. This is how you get obviously ridiculous and horrible looking comb overs.

A good men's barber can help out a lot. They'll give you a guide to how to style your hair and also do you favors in terms of working with different lengths on different parts of your head to create an overall better composite.

Or, take the plunge and star shaving your head. This has been 11/10 excellent for me. If you're a white dude, don't go full cueball - a 1 or 0 gauge gives a little texture and prevents you from looking like you have a medical condition of some sort. I personally don't like the bald-with-beard look, but that's an option.

+1 on Finasteride not being worth it. There are better ways to deal with hair loss.

If you're a white dude, don't go full cueball

What, you don't think having a hairstyle such that you can polish your head to a mirror finish is a good idea?

What if you get lost in the woods, need to signal for help, but forgot to bring a mirror or a flare gun?

Does anyone know if the Hock guy did it or did he “delay” for another year…?

Somebody wrote that he is now doing some regular mountain climbing instead. Can't find a link, though.

Context please?

There was a user here, SkookumTree, who used to post quite frequently about how his prospects with women were so bad that the only woman who would have him was a literal meth addict, or a 500 pound woman. At some point, he got it in his head that what would increase his chances with women was to have risked his life in some way, as apparently women can tell and are attracted to a man who has risked his life. So he kept talking about how he was going to go on a solo trek through the Alaskan wilderness, called the Hock. He was firmly convinced that if he just did this One Weird Trick (TM), he would finally be able to score dates or whatever.

Ultimately he got banned because he kept posting about it so much. I'm talking at least once a week in the Wellness Wednesday thread, and frequently more often than that. It got really obnoxious, especially because he kept arguing against people trying to give him advice on how to improve his game (and it probably goes without saying but it was all better advice than his plan). Basically he got banned until he went on the Hock, with the hope that he would finally stop beating that dead horse. But he hasn't been back around since he got banned, even though he has since been unbanned.

even though he has since been unbanned.

Oh? He's still in the banned list, but maybe I don't know how to read that. Good summary, btw.

Weird. I could've sworn that @Amadan unbanned him earlier this year, but maybe I misremembered.

I did unban him. Now that I recall, I think that happened just before the glitch that forced @ZorbaTHut to roll back the site a week. So apparently he was un-unbanned.

Okay, @SkookumTree (if you're still around), you are unbanned. Post about something other than how a goddamn doctor can't do better than a 500-pound meth addict.

Ah, I believe you're right that it was around that time. Thanks for re-unbanning him.

SkookumTree did not go in February 2024. The last I heard was he was delaying for more training. According to the "SkookumTree +reddit" Google search I just did he still regularly posts there, and on various benign topics. Others may know his future plans.

> Requests for advice

What's a reasonable "ghosting" protocol when it comes to online dating, assuming that I do want to rescue the conversation if-and-only-if the counterparty dropped the convo accidentally due to Universal Zoomer ADHD?

Trying out OLD recently, finally found what seemed to be a great match locally last weekend, but she went radio silence about 24h before a nearly-scheduled date. Not blocked, still "matched" on the site, and she shows up as "online" occasionally.

Current plan — asking in part for a sanity check on this — is to wait just under a week, maybe till Friday morning to allow for scheduling, then ask something upbeat and understanding like “hey, did you survive this week?” as the last outbound contact before writing it off as an intentional ghost.

Friday Evening

Me: … Well, let me know if the [local rock] concert next week sounds interesting or if you'd rather just grab coffee — or even lunch at a Chinese buffet? 😋
(I like rock music a bit, but not enough to bother going to a concert alone, so let me know either way!)

Her: Coffee would be amazing too I love iced coffee and I’m sorry but I can’t eat in front of someone new for awhile I’m very self conscious about that😂
I like to try new places that aren’t popular there’s this [very interesting cafe about an hour's drive away] I wanna visit but I can’t this Saturday however I can Sunday! I work a 9-5 Monday-Friday so I have money while I’m getting my business off the ground

Me: hmm, a drive up to [other state] this Sunday? 🤔Could be fun! I'm always down for obscure and interesting places.
What's the address, and have you got a specific timeslot in mind?
I was looking at checking out a church this Sunday (11am service), but could push that ahead a week

Her: Ooo which church I would love to go if that’s okay?

Me: Sure, I was looking at [nearby church] — it's a bit nontraditional (rather, they say they follow a non-mainstream tradition, Theosophy)
of course, as I said, I haven't actually been there yet so don't judge me if they turn out to be 100% crazy 🙈

Saturday morning

Her: I’ll look into! It might be interesting

Me: OK, I guess I'll see you tomorrow at 11am at [nearby church] and then maybe visit the obscure [other state] restaurant after?
*or 10:45 more like, so we can say "hi" beforehand

Sunday Morning

Me: OK, I'm heading out now to check out the church.
I don't have [dating site] on my phone, so if you want to tag up today — [cell#]

Me: (few hours later) Are you still interested in going to [that obscure cafe you mentioned] today?
It's an hour's drive there and an hour's drive back; if we leave around now, that would give us enough time for about a half-hour to eat and chat before I need to be back in [our town] by 4pm.

Just replying to say: Good on you for representing the entire convo. That's how you get great advice, which you can see consistently reflected in other replies. Onward!

Her: Ooo which church I would love to go if that’s okay?

Me: Sure, I was looking at [nearby church] — it's a bit nontraditional (rather, they say they follow a non-mainstream tradition, Theosophy) of course, as I said, I haven't actually been there yet so don't judge me if they turn out to be 100% crazy 🙈

Saturday morning

Her: I’ll look into! It might be interesting

To be specific, this is probably where you lost her. It went from her inviting herself to, looking into it as a soft exit. You tricked her with the church thing.

Looking up Theosophy, is that it looks odd, and makes you look out there. Likely - She's a Christian and thought you were going to Christian church, then pointed her to an odd pagan church with Nazi-esque logos, and she got spooked out by that. Culturally Christian people don't mind going to a nondenomination christian church to meet a stranger. It would code as a safe place. Rightly or wrongly, going to a non-christian esoteric religious meeting would code as dangerous and weird.

The wikipedia page has a logo at the top with a snake and a swastika thing.

"any of a number of philosophies maintaining that a knowledge of God may be achieved through spiritual ecstasy, direct intuition, or special individual relations, especially the movement founded in 1875 as the Theosophical Society by Helena Blavatsky and Henry Steel Olcott (1832–1907)."

This is a good take. I never even thought to look that up and now that I have yeah, it doesn't scan well.

I agree with the other posters here suggesting shorter texts (even one sentence or less) are far better at maintaining a degree of mystery (and thus: interest). While laying all your cards face-up on the baize may seem straightforward, honest, reasonable, and even the Behavior That Was Asked For, that's only ever a strategy when teaching someone a new game--and usually what not to do.

Reworking the above:

Friday Evening

Me: … [local rock] concert. Let's do it.

Her: Ok!

or: .....

Either response is fine. As it is it took you several texts and a lot of hope to get to .....

Shorter sentences. Online dating isn't Motte effortposting. No emojis ever, for any reason. No exclamation marks. Suggest something fun. If she doesn't want to do that thing, be polite and move on. She will never refuse your advances directly, it's hard enough to do that in person--online she can just ghost you. Then if she gets bored or lonely she can reinitiate the interaction (Your self-respect should not allow that to occur.)

But again, always be courteous. Be courteous to a fault. Becoming the angry FuckYou guy just reinforces all popular modern stereotypes re: men. Not that you need to give a shit, but courtesy is a good thing.

People are saying church is lame. Why? It was her idea, though you brought it up. I agree church-as-date seems very unromantic and unexciting. It reminds me of that Life in Hell cartoon of biggest turnoffs before intimacy ("Dear father please forgive us for this vile sin we are about to commit.")

Anyway that's a You thing. We don't all run in the fast lane. I guess. The fact that she was responding with such relative vigor suggests she is either keen or mildly neurotic. Safe money on door #2 (see: I can't eat food around humans.)

Cut your loss, which is minimal. Next adventure begins any day now.

  1. Stop using emojis

  2. Write shorter, more declarative sentences.

  3. Church ... for a first date. Bruh.

  4. Most importantly - Stop using OLD. Go out and talk to people in real life. You will have more success, you will have more fun, you will build interpersonal skills that transcend dating.

I've never understood OLD. If the objective is dating a real person in real life ... go do that. Why is there this odd online first step? It's like saying "Before I jump in the pool, I'll interact with a digital model of water so I understand the water better"

I can match several people this week and set up a date or I can go several years without meeting a single person I'm interested in. Online dating is clearly useful.

Yeah as a zoomer/current college student this is 100 percent correct. Of the guys in my friend group, the ones with the best success are just the strongest Hinge warriors who are willing to put themselves through the meat grinder to get a date. I've been working pretty consciously over the past month or so to make a serious attempt to talk to a girl every night I go out, but you run into a couple of issues:

-The Venn diagram of women you are interested in and women who frequent your mid college bar doesn't feature a very large overlapping zone, and other means of large-scale socialization are unreliable at best for a variety of reasons (attendance isn't guaranteed, demographics usually skew towards freshmen, often too loud and packed to hold a conversation)

-If you manage to get to the stage where you buy someone a drink, your dog and pony show has to be pretty much flawless or else you're cooked

-There's a weird lack of communication about interest, so you can talk to someone for well over an hour, buy them a couple drinks, have a great conversation, feel like you're in an unambiguous position with regards to intent, and then have them tell you they have a boyfriend (this exact phenomenon has happened to me on multiple occasions)

-Even when things go really well, there's a decent chance that it doesn't click on your end and you're your own worst enemy

Relying heavily on online dating generally mitigates the first and third obstacle, and the other two can be fixed through sheer numbers and persistence. It's a demoralizing process, but the easiest way to hit a bullseye is to throw a lot of darts.

Alright, I accept this response as a justification for OLD.

I didn't know it was this bad for zoomers. While I believe I've dated a technical zoomer, she was in a social circle that was very millennial (moment of self-reflection: perhaps that was why we got along).

If this is the case, OLD is rough sledding. There's are a bunch of articles that show how messed up the "market" for dating is (your "smothered" comments points at this).

but she's truly the most insightful person I've ever known

She's probably not. Because she isn't old enough.

Don't take this as me saying she isn't insightful. I take you at your word. But she's not the most insightful person you've ever known. Ask if if she is. She'll say she isn't. Take her at her word.

And then realize that if you still deny reality and message to her that you think she's the most insightful person you've ever known, she'll slowly start to question your reasonable judgement of other things.

Who keeps deleting their posts?

Stop it!

It’s fucking @urquan.

I call upon everyone to fully quote urquan’s comments when replying to any. He’s in this really weird and annoying phase where he just fucking deletes his posts after getting several replies!

The arc of the Doctrinal Conflict turns, and the Korh-Ah are now ascendant instead of the Czer-Ka. Utter destruction rather than containment and preservation is now the order of the day.

Shield up and power through, the weakness of the urquan tactics shall be laid bare! For the glory of Zelnick!

Straight out of DC comics

I've never understood OLD. If the objective is dating a real person in real life ... go do that.

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me there were two draws.

  1. I simply stopped meeting people after college, except through work (and the tech business is 99% men so that wasn't much help).
  2. When I had tried to date people I met IRL, I ran into the problem where by the time I got to know someone enough to be attracted to her, she was perfectly content being friends. Ran into it every single time I would ask a girl out. With online dating, at least it sets the tone up front that one is trying to have a romantic relationship, not platonic.

And honestly, it worked well enough for me! I'm pretty sure I would never have met my wife if not for OLD. So I'm glad I gave it a go.

The last time I met someone new that I ended up going on a date with was eight years ago. In that time, I've gone out with at least 60 people I met online. The idea that I shouldn't do online dating is incomprehensible to me. I would love to meet people, but I just don't see how that's possible. It was extremely hard in university (I never went on a date in university) and it's only gotten dramatically harder since, especially since covid.

She's not interested unfortunately. It's better if you dematch and move on.

In the future, I'd try to make date plans that are less pressure and more concrete. The coffee date was good! Moving it to a church was bad. It's just so much pressure to be with someone you don't know for multiple hours. And of course, never leave it up in the air.

Good: "Do you want to meet me for coffee at 1pm at Northtown Roasters"

Bad: "I'll be at the coffee shop so just hit me up if you're interested"

When I was online-dating, I followed some rules which people suggested to me. It worked well and I eventually met my wife after going on about 20 first dates.

  1. You need to check your photos on a site like PhotoFeeler. Everyone can get at least an 8. Try to get a 9. People are committing dating suicide by posting bad photos. You might not even know what a good photo is supposed to look like.

  2. Treat it like a job. Every day, spend a limited amount of time (maybe 15-30 minutes) swiping and getting matches. Once you get a match, you'll want to send a message soon afterwards. Try to make it good, but don't agonize over it. This is a numbers game. If they don't reply for a couple days, dematch and move on. Don't send 2 messages in a row if they don't reply. Definitely never send 3. Try not to get emotionally invested in people you've never met.

  3. After a few messages back and forth (at most 5-10) but maybe less, assess the conversation. Is it going well? If so, then propose a real life meetup in the next 3 days or so. Good: coffee, a walk, a drink. Bad: anything complicated. After the meetup is planned, try not to text much anymore except you can on the day of the date to confirm details.

Hopefully you'll get enough dates to find people you find interesting and that like you back.

If you're not getting matches go back to step 1. Note: This was 2021 so things might have changed...

As far as I can tell, your first message makes absolutely no difference. I almost always just wri pplte "hey" now and that usually gets a response.

I don't recommend unlatching if they don't respond. One of my exes that I met on Tinder had been ignoring all her messages and then just scrolled through them all and responded to mine a few months after I had sent it.

I think most people are fine with not texting between the planning of the date and the date itself, but I have had people cancel on me because of that.

She’s not interested lol

Check the ratio… you’re writing walls of text while she’s replying a small amount

Lastly inviting someone to church for a first date seems insane to me… she probably “she’d check it out” just to be polite.

Lastly inviting someone to church for a first date seems insane to me… she probably “she’d check it out” just to be polite.

To be fair she invited herself. However even mentioning it was probably a mistake.

What is OLD? Also, who can't eat in front of people? Huge red flag to start. Who wants to go to church as a date? Red flag for both of you. Why drive all over the place for a date with someone that won't eat food. Red flag for you. So 3 Red flags on this whole thing.

Also, who can't eat in front of people?

A surprisingly large proportion of women in my experience. Not a ton of them, but enough for me to categorize it as A Thing.

On line dating.

edit: replied to wrong comment somehow lol

I’m in my mid 30s and I’ve never had much success with romantic relationships. When I was in my 20s I could get occasional 1st dates through OkCupid or friends. There were a few girls I was in short-term relationships with, but nothing lasted longer than about 6 months.

I believe that I’m on the autism spectrum and that is why I struggle so much with social interactions that have a romantic component to them. I’d say my biggest challenges are (1) that I find eye contact uncomfortable so I mostly avoid it and (2) that I avoid trying to take any interaction into a flirtatious direction because I lack the skills to do it well and I don’t want to make things awkward.

I workout a lot and I’m in great physical shape. I started taking my looks/diet much more seriously around age 25.

When I was in my 20s things were also complicated by the fact that I had a very naïve and delusion model of how dating/relationships were supposed to work. Basically, I thought being nice, conscientious, reliable, and having a respectable career were the main things I could do to be viewed as good boyfriend material.

In my 30s I got good at getting attractive women in their 20s to approach me and initiate the interaction. It only works at bars that have dancing and involves me being on psychoactive substances (primarily Phenibut) that reduce social anxiety and put me into a flow state. I only do this up to once a week. In these interactions I get feedback that I’m very confident and have good vibes, but I rarely try to flirt even though the woman is usually giving me clear signals that she is sexually attracted to me. I usually try to de-flirt the interaction by dancing in a non-sexual way, or by saying things like, “I’m just doing exposure therapy to help build confidence”. If an interaction goes really well sometimes I’ll ask for her number so that we can hang out in the future. Usually, when I ask for her number I get it. But usually she doesn’t want to actually hang out if I text her in the future.

I think there are number of reasons why I don’t put much effort into flirting in these situations:

  • Learned helplessness from my earlier experiences. Knowing that whatever I do will eventually fail at some point in the process even if the next step succeeds.
  • When I’m sober and not at the bar I’m not nearly as confident and fun so she’ll probably lose interest in me.
  • Wanting to be known as the friendly/approachable/safe guy at the bar instead of a creepy guy just trying to get laid. Currently, most of the bar staff enjoys my presence and is friendly with me.
  • Having a low sex drive so I’m mostly wanting a relationship for companionship instead of the sexual component.
  • Having to deal with the stigma of a 10-15 year age-gap.

I’ve tried looking for women to date in sober environments and online dating and I just haven’t found anything that works for me. I’m not good enough at masking my autism so most of my social interactions go poorly. Even if I find a decent sober environment (like book club) I feel like there are social norms that prevent me from asking a women out.

My views on dating have also soured in 2 relevant ways:

  • I’ve seen first-hand how the confident/fun guy gets treated so much better than the boring/stable/normal guy. I don’t want to just be treated like the normal guy that she reluctantly settles for.
  • I can get attention from women in their 20s and it made me lose interest in most single women closer to my age (generally the ones that would have made good girlfriends/wives already paired-off when they were in their 20s). Since I don’t have much relationship experience I probably can’t meet the expectations of women in their 30s anyway.

What is the best path forward for me if I’m looking for a relationship that is mostly focused on companionship with a woman in her 20s?

I’m at a crossroads because my Phenibut experiences made me disinterested in pursing women in any other way. The women I meet sober are much less enthusiastic about me and less physically attractive. I feel like I could attempt to flirt more while at the bar, but I’m afraid of getting a reputation of being the guy at the bar that hits on too many women.

I find eye contact uncomfortable so I mostly avoid it

I hear this sort of thing brought up a lot as a sign of autism, and maybe it is in higher doses, but from generic people-watching and life experience, most people don't make eye contact most of the time. Eye contact does happen in platonic and romantic interaction, but excessive eye contact is off-putting in its own way (creepy). It's up there with how people generally don't directly face each other when talking, but more obliquely. IMO it's important to make sure we compare ourselves to real, normal people rather than exceptions or movie characters.

Your thinking is wrong - women in their 30s generally have lower standards and prioritize stability and dating the boring guy. I would try that for awhile given your current strategy isn’t working.

Generally, women in their 30s have lower standards about how much entertainment and validation you need to provide on an on-going basis.

They have much higher expectations about things like owning a house, your career trajectory, and how well you can navigate standard social interactions.

For instance, with many women in their 20s it is fine if you’re just having fun, rent a mediocre apartment, and haven’t got your career sorted out yet. At some point by their 30s those become dealbreakers to many women.

I don’t own a house because I wanted to live downtown to help with my social life, but then I got locked out of the housing market by not buying a house before the inflation from the Covid policies. So, that is one factor that puts me a disadvantage with the 30s women. Also, due to autism I don’t have any desire to become a manager/leader at work, so my career has kind of peaked as an individual contributor.

Counterpoint: the ones in their 30s who are still single are the ones who haven't changed their priorities yet and still live in Fantasyland.

I dunno man. I think you basically have it right. I recently found this: https://nuancepill.com/is-autism-the-real-black-pill/ and I felt so seen. Autism is just really, really bad for attracting women, even worse than being physically ugly.

tl;dr - Went to Pai, did drugs, met a girl, didn't have sex, and I think I really like her.

I've been in Chiang Mai for over a month to work on a startup. My co-founder and I decided to pursue separate aspects of the business, with me focusing on code generation and broader AI stuff. I won't divulge more until I have something concrete to show. This left me with some free time, so I started visiting nightclubs to improve my PUA skills. While I didn't pull any girls, I made some progress.

I met this guy from my hometown in India who, in hindsight, was a total creep and loser. He suggested I go to Pai for more parties. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, so I was hesitant, but my co-founder convinced me. I planned to stay for a day but ended up staying for six.

In Pai, I made some great friends. There was Alessio, a 35-year-old Italian songwriter traveling for seven months, and Dario, a Spanish guy a year younger than me who loves partying. I approached many girls, tried shrooms, and even had girls come back to my place. In the midst of this, I met a girl who changed everything.

She's my age, owns a house, and works as a programmer specializing in RPA. She's around 5'9 and in great shape. People who know me might remember my 2021 March incident, where a girl I was obsessed with ended up with other guys. Up until last week, I was still hung up on her, but this British girl changed that.

My Italian friend said hi to one of her friends at a pizza shop, and I started chatting with her other friends in the kitchen, where I first met her. We bumped into each other many times on Walking Street and later at a bar. She told me she wanted to shag me at first but changed her mind after I opened my mouth, saying I was too much of an asshole and trying too hard. I left, and she started making out with another guy. I went to another place, and she ended up there too, dancing with me.

At one point, she sat on my face while I was sitting on the bleachers. I made some jokes about mutual oral sex, and she stopped, saying it wasn't happening. I left and later told her to fuck herself when I saw her again.

I saw her the next day but didn't say a word. The day after, we exchanged glances, and I went on my first-ever date. We kissed goodbye as she had a flight the next morning, while I stayed for two more days.

I fucked up. I should have eaten her out when she asked, and we would have had sex. I've never been teased this much by a girl. I want to meet her again. She's in the south of Thailand until the 24th, and if she still wants to fuck me, I'll take the first flight to meet her. I won't make the same mistake as last time. It might seem beta, but I like her. She comes from a humble background and has made a good life for herself. She seemed genuinely happy, and I hope to meet her soon and spend the night with her.

My friends convinced me that if she's into me, it's worth a shot. Maybe she could even be a co-founder since she's good at coding.

Back to Pai

I did drugs in Pai - acid, shrooms, cannabis edibles, nitrous oxide, and even liquor. This was the most fun week of my life. We'd wake up late, explore the beautiful mountains, visit nearby scenic spots, and then get fucked up. One night, I did shrooms with some girls and blacked out, convinced they were going to molest me when we left my room. I had earlier spoken with a German guy about how he would have to leave me back to where I live if I got fucked up. He was making out with this girl, saw me sitting in a balled-up position, and helped me get back home with the girl helping me out too.

I had a guy help me get water at 5 am only for him to later tell me that he passed out next to the river. Or the time we rode scooters to the waterfall where I was high sitting behind my friends, or the time I helped Alessio walk back to his place while we both could barely walk from the edibles in the rain. It felt like something out of a video game.

I have so many stories to tell. I feel happy, after many years, I finally felt happy for more than a few hours. It's more than what I deserved frankly. I left and bumped into these Norwegian girls who did a bar crawl. Overall, I am happy, I hope you guys are too.

I want to visit Pai again, maybe in the future once my startup stuff pans out, perhaps I can convince some of the friends I made there to travel once again. I feel a warm glow even describing the things I did there. This was the first time in my life where I traveled alone and did drugs. Pai is magical. Cheap, clean, small, safe, only tourists all around you, mountains all around you.

See ya folks later.

I made a few jokes about how she will be sucking me off too at which point she stopped and told me that this is not happening. I left and later told her to fuck herself when I saw her again.

This is... not how to talk to women. Not ever. Not women that tease you, not women that frustrate you, not anyone. You'll give every woman the ick.

Yeah, please do tell me what I did wrong. I am being completely sincere in this since she was dragging me to eat her out.

I was wrong hence the question.

Not trying to be an ass here. But I have been on the desired side of many interactions with women--meaning I was the one who was pursued, or, more accurately, I was the one who was wanted, who was desired. In states both drunk and sober. And I have never ever been "dragged to eat out" a woman. Even in the the most sweaty, unclothed chaleur du moment, I have never had a woman make such a suggestion--maybe they are just more aggressive in Pai, but I somehow can't even imagine it. I cannot imagine the words, the body language, or the context for how such a request might be communicated, in particular outside a really intimate encounter with someone known well. "Just kiss me already," sure.

I say this not to suggest that this girl wasn't attracted to you for maybe she was (though even if she was, that doesn't mean she still would be, or ever will be again). But maybe there's something in ketamine and whatever else that skews your perceptions? Something to think on.

It sounds like you just have a very unhealthy view towards women, friend. You see them as beneath you and objects to use for sex.

I know that this is a common leftist talking point, and I'm generally more conservative, but they have a point. Women are to be cherished and loved, not used and gamed for physical pleasure. They can smell your intentions.

I don't see them as people beneath me. There are some people who get to enjoy the company of various women in a short duration of time in their youth and I wish to be one of them. If I meet a girl who I find attractive and wish to engage with, I try to do so in a respectful manner that's playful and not at all leech like or creepy.

I like women. I like meeting them, seeing them smile, make jokes and the entire experience. At a point in my life I was certainly someone who did see them in a wrong way but I'm different now.

There are some people who get to enjoy the company of various women in a short duration of time in their youth and I wish to be one of them. If I meet a girl who I find attractive and wish to engage with

That sounds like sex with euphemisms.

As another poster pointed out, the language you use to the describe them, and apparently the way you talk to them, convinces me that you still see women in a negative light, even if it's unconscious.

I would recommend praying to a motherly goddess and asking for revelation, but I'm a weirdo. Can also try to get female friends that you swear to never date, and be vulnerable in asking them for advice.

The main diety for my clan is a female goddess who is the divine mother.

I never noticed it came off like this, I used to be too much of a wuss so maybe I overcompensated here.

For a guy who does not drink or do drugs, you did a hell of a lot of drugs. Let this be my only warning: That kind of high is not long-term. It is a dragon you chase.

The rest of your post weaves a bit much into an account of events that I cannot parse well enough to comment on. Being happy is good, I suppose. But the words "warm glow" and "magical" and the like do not suggest sustainability. How's the business?

I am finally out of the limbo and will start pushing updates.

I met a girl who I actually like. I did not end up fucking her and she is in the south of thailand till the 24th before she flies out so I may fly to meet her if I think she is into me.

I made an infamous post back in 2021 where I fucked up by not meeting a girl I liked then, I do not wanna do that now.

I loved the drugs. I should have tried a higher dose of both acid and shrooms and also done ketamine. Just lacked the money. I see this as one off experiences and not a lifestyle thing anyway.

Right. I would never do any of those drugs that you mention in any dosage, but I suppose you have a sense of what you want and can withstand. I do not know of the infamy of your posts, but that's fine, I don't need to.

Just based on your posts today, I might avoid the trap of thinking any sort of sexual interaction seals the deal in terms of affection--it doesn't. In fact it isn't a measure of much at all, in and of itself. The everything that comes before and after are much more relevant.

I've read you using PUA terms and having a very casual terminology regarding women ("oneitis" etc.) and this gives me considerable pause. Women/a woman is not the answer to all of your problems, nor is doing a bunch of drugs. This may already be clear to you, of course.

Just based on your posts today, I might avoid the trap of thinking any sort of sexual interaction seals the deal in terms of affection--it doesn't. In fact it isn't a measure of much at all, in and of itself. The everything that comes before and after are much more relevant.

This is something I fear, I finally liked a girl for real after a while and there is a very high chance that she will not like me back or it wont work out. I really want it to. It seems cheesy and something out of the movies to rush to meet some girl I have not even slept with hoping that she will like me. She finds me sexually attractive but I think that I am extremely unattractive so I do have some issues there as well.

I've read you using PUA terms and having a very casual terminology regarding women ("oneitis" etc.) and this gives me considerable pause. Women/a woman is not the answer to all of your problems, nor is doing a bunch of drugs. This may already be clear to you, of course.

Oneitis is a fairly benign term. You are correct in pointing out how women are not the answer to all my problems. I fear that I look at them as a crutch so that I can avoid solving actual active problems that are harder to tackle. I have a constant ever-present fear that I am not smart/hardworking enough to ever amount to anything at all. The only ways around this would be actually doing things well (startup stuff in my case), working on my past trauma through some modality and learning to manage my issues more actively.

This may already be clear to you, of course.

In ways but constructive feedback helps me a lot.

Are you seeking constructive feedback to get laid or to be attractive to other people? Your entire focus of your opening post was about how drugs liberated you into being this new person you never knew you could be, and you are upset that you didn't get to fuck a girl. The fact that you frame this in terms of sexual satiation rather than self actualization indicates a massive disparity in your intended presentation versus your explicated priorities.

Be honest first with yourself about what you want. The utility of asking contextless externals is an independent recommendation based on stated preferred outcomes against current practices. If your presentation doesn't pass the sniff test to the externals, then literally nothing constructive can be said because subjective interpretations of the presented events are what the externals are working off of.

As it stands, I must highlight the likely disparity between your interpretation and reality. PUA language is remarkably good at leading practitioners to infer intent where none exists and to externalize blame for unrealized (and usually unrealizable) outcomes. Mistaking being friendly with being down to fuck is a remarkably consistent behavioral maladaptation with members of the (sigh) seduction community because genial friendly interactions map cleanly into the first stages of the pickup macro.

Requesting sanity checks from this forum is one thing, but perhaps an after action report from (literally) sober observers would be more helpful. Knowing whether one had a real connection or if one was divining meaning out of errata is a key part of knowing ones capabilities.

I got hurt before and have acted like a wuss. The Pua stuff helped me avoid those tendencies.

I had to mention the fact that I couldn't sleep with her because for the first time in a while, I felt something for a girl without having even been physical. Rather, first time I felt anything and that too despite not having done anything physical.

I do agree with a lot of what you wrote. I am just lost and I don't know how to move forward. Pickup helped me a lot but I can't see my own internal contradictions which is why I post.

Getting on twitter has been incredibly good for my mental health and overall spirits. Who knew?

I got on there recently myself. It made me feel a lot less alone, in that I finally found people who are noticing the same things I notice in the world around me. It also made me realize just how small the Overton window is virtually everywhere else.

I suspect that a lot of the negative association with it is from people that weren't doing great in the first place and spiraled rather than de novo generation of unwellness.

It's a lot of fun sharing stuff with people. The first time Steve Sailer dropped a like made my whole day.

Did you get his book yet? It's a very handsome volume.

Does it ship with every like?

Lol, that would be nice. Unfortunately it must be purchased with money.

one-time purchase? How outdated. It's 2024, it should be a freemium model in which you get a single page per day but if you want to read faster you gotta pay.

If I'm going to be energy gated for the main plot he better not get distract us by dropping a more interesting side event. GRRM already did that and we are all the lesser for it.

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