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I think the Justices are smart enough to understand that their authority is a product of social consensus, not anything innately derivative of their position. They understand that since Conservatives approached a solid majority on the Court Blue Tribe has pivoted to attacking the court's foundational social consensus directly with calls for court packing, smearing of justices and calls for their impeachment, and so on. They appear to be attempting to balance exercise of their power with maintenance of that power. I'm skeptical that such a balance is possible, but they've certainly pushed harder toward exercise than I expected, so I imagine we'll see.
I still do not expect the Court's foundations to survive long-term; there is no reason for Reds to continue investing faith in them if they cannot deliver, and there is no way for them to deliver without Blues killing the court. This realization undermines the social consensus foundation from the Red side, and we converge on both sides admitting more or less openly that the Court is only legitimate when it delivers their specific preferred outcomes, which is isomorphic to the court having no legitimacy at all.
The entire point of a Supreme Court is to settle tribal conflict. The court can't reliably perform that purpose now, and its ability will only further diminish over time.
I mean, I think your conclusion is, overall, long term correct, but the bolded part is fully within Blue control. They just have to stop using the courts as a cudgel on every issue and simply expecting rubberstamped approvals of every outlandish claim they bring. They dont need to pretend that Colorado has a single baker who happens to be a Christian. They dont need to bring Sarbanes-Oxley prosecutions against protestors who wandered into a federal building after police abandoned their posts. They just dont. But they can't help themselves.
Indeed not. But the broader point is that from the perspective of Red Tribe itself, there is no reason to accept compromise or any sort of strategy based on the long term. Our interests are best served by deriving maximum value from our temporary advantage, and then capitalizing on Blue resistance and defiance both in the past and present as a model for resistance and defiance of our own. Any path back to detente is a mirage.
And from the Blue perspective, as best I can model it, they are both correct and winning, and doing anything other than doubling down would be pointless compromise with evil. Red Tribe bigotry, superstition, and increasingly, criminality and treason generate no value that they recognize, while generating unbelievable amounts of harm. Just look at all that giant spike of murders in the last couple years, almost all of which gun control could have prevented. The arc of history is long, but bends toward justice, and they are on the right side of history. Progress is the whole point. Why sacrifice that progress to those who were never going to cooperate with it anyway? Especially when the Progress, once achieved, will greatly benefit those people anyway, once their defiance and their bitter, clinging grasp to their reactionary totems has been broken?
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I know you've argued this before, and I have responded similarly, but worth pointing out again: as I read early American history, it is surprising how very similar the political and culture war conflicts of the late 18th and early 19th century were, complete with widespread mistrust of institutions, those who clung to the Constitution vs. those who considered it a dead letter if not a weapon against them, and the careful balancing act the Supreme Court performed. The Court has always been aware that its legitimacy rested on the public's perception and politicians' acceptance of it, and on not attempting to issue rulings it knew would be ignored.
There have been many crises threatening the legitimacy of the Supreme Court before, from Andrew Jackson's "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it" (which is probably an apocryphal quote, but was pretty close to Jackson's actual response to the Cherokee Indian case) to FDR's attempt to pack the court.
It's survived and persisted this long, but that's not to say your prediction is wrong - after all, we did trudge down the slow and inexorable road to civil war once before. However, I am not convinced that the conflict is as baked in as it was in the 19th century.
Notably, slavery was a bit more existential to 19th century americans than abortion is to 20th century ones.
Abortion seems to have been pretty existential to the nearly 1 million Americans who were aborted last year, as they no longer exist. Who do you think had a higher mortality rate, 20th-Century aborted babies or 19th-Century slaves?
Fetuses aren't Americans, any more than chickens are Americans.
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I meant existential to people who get a say. Abortion is a terrible tragedy but unborn babies don’t get a say in society, even in places like Texas, Malta, Poland, etc.
Now you've got me wondering about all the crazy ways an "abortion is illegal after X time, but pregnant women get two votes after X time" scheme could go wrong.
A few pro-life states have decided to give pregnant women the right to use the HOV lane.
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There's a little bit of smearing, but I happen to think (and it seems to some extent you agree) that a fair amount of it is self-inflicted. I trace unhappiness with the court back to perhaps the original sin, Citizen's United, which to me seemed like a needless own-goal pretty much everyone disliked. Which is remarkable, because normally you'd consider Bush v Gore to be the big source of unhappiness, but the Democrats seem to have took that one in stride. How different it looks now.
In terms of scandal, the Kavanaugh hearings weren't that much worse than Thomas'. The nomination drama behind Garland and Gorsuch was a bit dirty, but nothing that got me quite as enraged as some people on the left. However, financial scandals were just a matter of time to come to light, like the -- I went back and counted, there are at least eight billionaires -- who have some degree of suspicious links to Supreme Court members. And don't get me started on the "we don't really need an ethics code". Uh, yes, you kinda do. This is a very severe challenge to legitimacy. And back to jurisprudence, there wasn't necessarily a strong reason to overturn Roe, Hodges was broadly popular but certainly a major event, and as a Supreme Court you do have a certain amount of political capital and around that point they really should have gotten the memo that they were stretching it to breaking. Rather than wait it out a little longer, they are charging ahead with things like the looming, presumed causer of chaos: Chevron doctrine revisited. On top of the Trump things, of course. Not intervening in the Florida case the judge there is clearly sandbagging was a big deal to me personally but I don't think that will echo much farther.
Yes, a few are aware of the legacy aspect. Roberts certainly is. However, I get the sense that Alito and Thomas are a bit "damn the torpedoes" right now. Barrett might be having second thoughts about things. It's harder for me to get a bead on Gorsuch and Kavanaugh. I think it's also Kagan who has been a little abnormally vocal out of court as well?
My impression of the financial things were that it was Thomas just coming along on trips with his friend, and that this was mostly just lefty journalists looking for any means possible to discredit the court now that it's making rulings they don't like. That said, I get trying to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
I'd pin Dobbs as the thing that most hurt their reputation in the recent past, though I'm not certain of that.
That said, you certainly are right that some of the justices are not making their decisions in order to placate public opinion, but to accomplish their agenda. But has Thomas, for example, ever done otherwise? I think they're mostly just honest, if motivated.
Yeah, it's tough because reading all the ProPublica reports, it seems Thomas and Crow are like, legitimate friends. I do feel strongly about appearance of impropriety being the standard to shoot for, though, so... yeah. I sympathize with the difficulty of having to be really fucking careful about who your friends are, but at the same time I feel like yeah, they DO need to be really fucking careful who their friends are. Otherwise maybe turn down the nomination. I'd love to see some of that happen once in a while.
I mean my fundamental bias but one I'll defend is that these guys are just people. People are usually relatively honest and normally motivated. I will say that if for decades you are taking ultra-luxury trips, but in the back of your head you know if you piss them off too much they might stop, that kind of thing does tend to distort thinking just a hair. And there's no way you're taking weeks and weeks of vacations with people and you never talk politics? Ain't no way.
What I saw one article advocate for, I'd love for it to be the case, is to ask actual questions, high-quality ones that are answerable, in the confirmation hearings to try and get a better sense for some fundamental values and styles of different potential justices. Things like these (not a perfect list) that include stuff like when was the last time you changed your mind? What's a bias you struggle with? What kind of effect would you like to have on the court? Could you explain more details on why you lean originalist/textualist/etc?
I suspect the court will be fine. I would go nuclear is court-packing or something similar happened, no matter who. I strongly, strongly advocate for what the conversation should really center on: Maybe let's talk about some Constitutional Amendments to the Supreme Court process? I'm open to that. Would necessarily need to be bipartisan. In practice, I'm not super sure what it would take (if even possible) for the GOP to get on board something like that however. Maybe make some sort of general, government ethics amendment?
Yeah, I don't imagine any concessions from Republicans unless forced to it. They've finally managed to get a hold of the court, after nearly a century of leftist control, and now, all of a sudden, it's everyone's talking about how the justices (but only the conservative ones) are corrupt, and how the court's extreme and biased (never mind all the different splits), and that the court needs to be reformed. There's something of a double standard. (And I do genuinely think that the conservative justices are less likely to make decisions from their political views, because they have more of a judicial philosophy of the senses of the text already being set in stone, not just what they want it to be.)
Regarding propriety and trips and so forth: I'm kind of torn over how seriously this should be taken. It's obviously politically motivated and going looking to do harm to the justices that they hate, and I'd be very surprised if there were anything nefarious going on. I'd certainly not expect him to be influenced by money; he seems to always be ruling for his own, radical in its lack of regard for precedent, vision of what the constitution said, often alone. I certainly imagine he talks politics with Crowe, but I'd be surprised if that affected his jurisprudence, as he doesn't just rule according to whatever suits current Republican preferences. And I don't know that I think it's all that good of an idea to reward bad action from the left like that, when I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have affected anything. I'm curious how general the recent lesson is about other figures on the right, that you can ignore cancellation now, so long as you have a conservative base, and you don't treat the problems as serious just because your opponents treat them as serious. That is, I don't know if treating them as real would simply serve to undermine tte court's credibility by there being a consensus that something is wrong. At the same time, it would genuinely be better if there wasn't this that could be used to attack them.
I also like the questions, but I don't know how well they would be applied in practice. I anticipate that those in Congress would use them in order to probe for weaknesses to jump on, and so the judicial nominees would try to answer in ways that said the least that they could be attacked for, instead of seeking to be the most revealing.
For the reasons above I'd be hesitant to go along with a push to constitutionally reform the court—capitulating would give credence to the complaints and make people more likely to think that the court is currently bad, when, in my view, it's the best court we've had in a long while. If it would genuinely make it hard to complain about the court, I'd be for it, but I don't expect that, and would anticipate the opposite. I'd also worry that something like term limits would serve to further politicize the court, by enshrining in law something intended to balance the court in a partisan manner, instead of just assuming that everyone has an obligation to be fair interpreters.
Something of a double standard, maybe, but not all the way. Right-wing people for years have complained about the Court doing too much that is legislation-adjacent, doing outright activism, or imposing liberal social values, and those arguments were accompanied by arguments about maybe not corruption as explicitly, but certainly ideological capture and bias (claims that all the liberal colleges are brainwashing law students, and I think there were complaints about lifelong appointments too). We have conveniently forgotten these argument simply because they haven't happened as loudly recently, but I do remember them! They probably aren't exactly equal to current complaints.
I like your comment and the thoughtfulness there. It's possible my dream of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety is unrealistic, but I don't think so. Ideally, court reform conversations would be actual conversations, where we can talk about exactly this sort of thing like "are term limits even going to be helpful, or would they backfire?" This can cause us to rationally examine what parts of the SC do and don't work. We might find some parts actually DO work better than the public thinks, in the process. In other words, I think opening reform as a valid discussion would result in more light than heat. There's already plenty of heat and I think legitimizing the discussion might be a good release valve. Related: somewhat unusually, I don't love the idea of term limits for Congresspeople, I think it would only worsen the revolving door, and ignores how lawmakers also gain positive experience and specializations over time. Monetary reform for campaigns and politics generally might be a better Amendment candidate. Or simply pushing for better stock divestment, etc.
The idea behind the questions is that the current questioning process is relatively effective about determining left-right axis location, but not very effective in determining the other axes. As shown in some of the discussions here, many justices form their own brands, and there's stuff like the 3-3-3 split. Maybe better questions can allow the Senate to be more predictive in locating a nominee's position on other axes besides the simple and often ill-suited ideological one.
Allow me to take back the concessions I made on Thomas.
Fix the Court gives me the vibe of a one or two person outfit with strong personal views. I think they were and are an okay starting point for tracking recusals more broadly, which was my reference. I don't think I ever used them as a source, and probably would not use them as a source, for more of the in detail financial reporting about gifts. ProPublica is a stronger team and I think they are doing good work that's fairly evenhanded. They usually state what they know and approximately how certain they are (e.g. they will say if they looked at direct proof, it's hearsay, they found corroboration of trip, etc.) I've read almost all of their stuff all the way through, and a few counterclaims all the way through as well. Now don't get me wrong, it's not like they are saints without an agenda. But I feel they typically adhere to decently good journalistic standards, near as I can tell.
IMO, the link provided does a guilt by association trick, combined with a strawman. It talks about FTC almost the entire article, when they aren't really the experts nor the original source for most of the scandal claims. In fact I expect FTC to have errors. ProPublica less so. What it says specifically about ProPublica, a drive-by broadside right at the end:
I happen to know exactly what they are talking about in the second article. The article cited refers readers to some of the earlier reporting and assumes readers read those. The original reporting that first broke the trips went into extreme detail about exactly what the rules and laws were about trips (which often differed) and the ethical debate behind them. I think they thought, and I partially agree, that re-treading the same ground in an article framed explicitly as an update to a previous story was less necessary. The update article cited is only like two pages. The original investigation was something more like 20 pages. Obviously the original can go into more detail. And in the original articles, you can clearly see that they advance the (substantive!) argument that rules allowing transportation to not be disclosed are not only something that seems unethical to the average person, but furthermore, cruises and yacht trips are not only transportation, they are also lodging. Again, I refer you to my argument that we want to hold SC justices to a "appearance of impropriety" higher standard, which is not just my projection or wish, it's the explicit policy goal of the Supreme Court ITSELF. Why would it be bad to hold them to their own moral standard?
The inclusion of a single error also deliberately ignores quite a few cases where, as PP mentions, they actually did find legitimate issues that various Justices later fixed. A single error on a single trip does not discredit the reporting. Most of their reporting focused on a few other examples where more info was available. For example, the numerous luxury retreats. Or the New Zealand yacht trip that did happen, and wasn't disclosed, and we know for a fact this happened because, among other evidence, we have a photo of Thomas' handwritten thank you in a book he gave to a yacht worker mentioning the trip. And finally, a smear is not a smear if... it's true. Their main point is that there is no enforcement mechanism for ethics rules, that at least some justices are skirting common-sense disclosures due to rule technicalities, and the fact that we can only find out about these concerning things via extensive and laborious investigation is, yes, concerning for everyone!
Good points. I imagine propublica is of course motivated and lopsided in attention given, but that makes sense that their work would be better quality.
And, thanks for always being reasonable.
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You're right that there were complaints both ways about judicial activism. I happen to think the left does more of it, and is more openly motivated by whatever they want to be true, but fair enough.
I think more policy conversations in general would be good. But how would you propose they happen? I think, perhaps unusually in our history, though I'm not sure about that, a lot of politics is governed by the lowest common denominator: whatever appeals to the most people online, oriented towards their respective bases. (That's not exactly right, but close enough). How do you manage a constructive conversation like that? You could have one, but you'd have to avoid making it about scoring points. I'm sure some politicians are sincere enough and sufficiently non-cynical to do this. But even then, you'd still have to make it be something that reaches the collective consciousness to get traction, unless you can manage to get enough behind the scenes. But it's popular legitimacy that matters mostly when we're looking at it from the view of the polarization of the discourse, not what Congress, for example, thinks, so behind-the-scenes isn't quite what we're asking for here.
I like the Free Press's debates, even if there used to be better debates.
Good point regarding questions. Having them asked by a sympathetic person would help.
Ideally, we would hold some sort of convention in total secrecy, then the convention would release a list of possible proposals for reform and ask the public which option they would prefer. We could then have a period of public parlor talk and debate. If the big parties avoided immediately staking out a stance, I think there would be a decent chance of people selecting a favorite. The convention system is sadly almost never used anymore, but can be very effective.
Ah, conventions would help. Hardly anything else could get the requisite solemnity.
Some difficulties: it requires people to work together, and in an age of the internet, complete secrecy is hard to maintain.
And of course, whether online partisans will promptly polarize the question.
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Why it rings hollow to me is there wasn’t the same concern over Sotomayor taking millions in advances from a publisher while not recusing on a case that they directly were involved in. That is, the complaint about Thomas seems politically motivated. The ones about Alito are just silly (and we did learn that you should find someone who loves you the way Mrs Alito loves flags).
According to Fix The Court which has a nice list of missed recusals and seems to be pretty evenhanded, this happens a fair amount, more than I'd like. An earlier case, according to details I see from them (but opinions and speculation my own), possibly was missed due to the publisher being Knopf by name at the time, which in reality was a subsidiary of Penguin who was named. Beyond that, it appears many justices simply make long sheets of specific companies, and don't always update them correctly nor properly do their due diligence in looking deeper. For example, in the more recent publisher example, Gorsuch also failed to recuse for the same reason, and Breyer accidentally recused because his list was out of date!
I feel strongly about reform but am pretty clear eyed about the recent stuff being dramatized. I thought it was in this thread, but I guess not -- the Alito stuff as I've said is garbage and that was clear pretty early on. While you could say "maybe they are picking on Thomas specifically" they have found enough unrelated and significant ethical lapses I'm convinced, and think it's pretty clear to those who have investigated, that there's an actual pattern there.
What I’m saying is if I thought most of the criticisms were actually concerned about the integrity of the court, then I wouldn’t have as much an issue. But as it is, I think the vast majority of the criticism is simply people who don’t like the court’s rulings looking for ways to undermine the court.
I see the left do this all of the time. When they controlled the court, it was sacrosanct. The moment it switches hands, we start hearing about its legitimacy. Republican attacks on the court historically were about theory of law; democrats aren’t talking about theory of law. Democrats did the same thing with Twitter and Elon. Once he unlocked a major communication platform from their grip, Elon became a far right racist. Funny how that works.
That's fine. I've observed that I'm more likely than most to be willing to examine arguments made in bad faith in spite of them being made in bad faith. Partly because I don't think bad faith is as common as popularly perceived, but also because I'm skeptical that most people can safely and accurately enough tell the difference. It's through this lens that I'm sympathetic to current court criticisms. Related: persecution complexes. Doesn't mean the persecution isn't real, but it does tend to distort perception. I genuinely believe that the right has a persecution complex far beyond anyone on the left, except for maybe Marxists.
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It's so obviously grasping at Straws. Thomas has been over of the most ideologically consistent justices in modern history, there is just no good evidence of him throwing cases in any way. It's this weird mistake theory belief that no one can believe anything different than what you believe, so if anyone acts like they believe it there must be corruption involved.
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Can someone help me understand the continuing opposition to Citizens United? I didn't pay a lot of attention to Supreme Court news back in 2010, so I wasn't following the details of the controversy. But I remember the kerfluffle around Alito (allegedly) mouthing "not true" when Obama said, during a state of the union speech, that the ruling would "open the floodgates for special interests, including foreign corporations, to spend without limits in our elections." But the Supreme Court's ultimate decision seemed so obviously correct that I'm amazed it was ever disputed at all--and the fact that, years later, some people continue to consider it an egregiously bad opinion is totally baffling to me.
Here's my quick and dirty understanding of the constitutional issue in that case (please correct me if it's wrong): Citizens United was a nonprofit corporation that made a documentary video criticizing Hillary Clinton. They wanted to 1. show the video on cable TV and 2. advertise the video on cable and broadcast TV. The Federal Election Commission wouldn't let them, because federal campaign finance laws prohibited corporations and unions from spending money to advocate for or against a candidate in an election. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of CU, finding that the provisions of the federal statute in question constituted a ban on political speech and were, therefore, unconstitutional.
Isn't this ... obviously right? Like, if "freedom of speech" means anything, it has to mean that advocacy groups can publish a criticism of a politician. The FEC's counterarguments all seem really lame, like saying the First Amendment doesn't apply to corporations because they have too much money (what if they don't? And what about rich individuals--are they unprotected by the 1A too?), or because their views don't necessarily reflect the views of the public at large (since when does that permit restricting someone's speech?), or because some shareholders might not agree with the corporation's position (which is equally true of media corporations; does the 1A not apply to "the press"?). I really struggle to see how anyone could agree that these arguments justify the FEC's position. On the other hand, the idea that Congress can ban political speech--the most important kind, for First Amendment purposes--about a presidential candidate, no less--just because the speaker is a body of multiple people joined together, rather than the same people acting alone--seems both arbitrary and clearly unconstitutional. (Especially in the guise of campaign finance laws, which in my opinion should have some connection to, you know, financing someone's campaign, rather than restricting independent criticism of a politician.)
I like to think that the Obama-esque critique of CU is more sophisticated than just "corporations BAD!" But that seems to be the thrust of both Obama's SOTU soundbite and, from what I've read of it, Justice Stevens' dissent. (Stevens also complains that the Court went beyond the narrow issues raised by the parties, but I guarantee you that's not why people are still up in arms about this case years later.)
Well, nonprofits are NOT fundamentally different than companies. In terms of the deep fundamentals. I know they are in practice, but in theory, I feel strongly this is not the case! We choose as a society, and as a government, to let them be a little more free with how they raise and spend money because we think that they can bring some social good by doing so, and feel bad about making that super hard for them. Thus we allow them to avoid taxes and certain regulations, often in exchange for following other, different regulations to make sure they actually are categorized correctly. These categories are defined by law, not by any fundamentals.
It's worth taking a second look at good old Amendment 1:
Note that things we consider nonprofits do not in fact line up clearly with the Constitutional categories stated here. Churches are kind of the same thing as Religion, but not entirely! We choose to treat many as nonprofits. How much is convenience, how much is moral arguments as above, and how much is force of ultimate law? Of course note that the Religion bit comes with a different vibe, where it's bad to prohibit free exercise, and they can't establish religion, but presumably there is some sort of sense that mild restrictions on churches might not necessarily prevent free religious (individual) exercise, though by and large we have chosen not to go there. The Press is kind of a bunch of news corporations, but some are nonprofit and some are for profit. Free Speech is something that can't be abridged, and this is connected with the Press stuff via punctuation, but also a bit of a different point, often taken individually. Note that lawyers and scholars have built up some other common law stuff around these, so the text isn't exactly self-sufficient (many free speech exceptions exist despite the language being, on its face, pretty clear: NO ABRIDGING) and caution is warranted to not get too carried away.
Overall however, it's clear The Press is clearly something special and different. I'm not familiar enough with the legal distinction, though maybe I should be. When we talk about corporations, however, we are back to the whole idea that you correctly called out about associations of people. This is tricky. The sound bite that this declared "corporations are people" is not too far off. You seem to agree that functionally speaking, corporations are similar enough to people that we might as well treat them as people (for free speech purposes at least).
It's treating presumably individual rights to apply to big groups of people with no critical thinking involved at all, in the opinion of detractors, that is one holdup. What about makeup of the corporation, does that matter? What if there are a bunch of noncitizens in the company? Running the company? If people within the company disagree, isn't this kinda like "taking away" speech opportunities of the minority view, and giving it to the majority view, which creates a disproportionate effect similar to silencing speech, in effect? Another counter-argument was more of a common law objection about corruption. If a person has and spends a lot of money, maybe that's fine, but if they spend it in a way that is less close to "I have a political opinion" and more close to quid pro quo stuff, maybe that's less fine? Accordingly, you might notice a few precedent cases called into question by the decision included some explicitly about this very issue, collisions with anti-corruption legislation (which in a common sense and common law direction is going to be given some weight). In other words, spending money isn't quite equivalent to speech, it really, really depends on what the money is for. In fact, the SC still distinguishes between direct and indirect (i.e. PAC) contributions AFAIK for only this reason, the corruption potential, though the practical implementation of this leaves... something to be desired.
tl;dr;be less talky: All this long comment to say that your assessment that the case came down to "common sense" conflicting with the actual, practical meaning of the law (and Constitution) is probably correct. But common sense does show up in many First Amendment cases, so this expectation wasn't wholly emotional. And "common sense", though ill defined, is broadly popular.
Thanks for the response. I agree that nonprofit vs. for-profit corporations is not really a relevant distinction ... but Citizens United did not rely on that distinction, so it doesn't have anything to do with the outcome of the case.
Not that clear, actually. There is a live debate about whether the "Freedom of the Press" clause protects "the press" as an industry (professional journalists, newspapers, and media corporations) or "the press" as a type of speech-related activity, which anyone can do. The linked article argues for the latter interpretation, which I think is clearly the better view.
SCOTUS expressly held "We need not reach the question whether the Government has a compelling interest in preventing foreign individuals or associations from influencing our Nation’s political process ... Section 441b is not limited to corporations or associations that were created in foreign countries or funded predominately by foreign shareholders. Section 441b therefore would be overbroad even if we assumed, arguendo, that the Government has a compelling interest in limiting foreign influence over our political process." In other words, SCOTUS did not address whether Congress could restrict corporate speech based, specifically, on foreign ownership, but since the statute in question applied to all corporations, the statue was not "narrowly tailored" to that concern.
The Court addressed, and rejected, that argument on the following grounds: (1) it applies equally to media corporations, and nobody believes the government should have the power to restrict political speech by e.g. newspapers; (2) there's little evidence such abuses could not be corrected through the procedures of corporate democracy; (3) the statute in question is clearly inadequate to address such concerns, because those concerns implicate all speech in all media at all times, but the statue only applies to certain kinds of political speech, in certain media, at certain times close to an election; and (most importantly, IMO) (4) the statute is at the same time overinclusive--again, not "narrowly tailored"--because it covers all corporations, including those with only a single shareholder. I think these points add up to a pretty compelling argument that the statute in question was "narrowly tailored to address a compelling government interest," but, again, it left open the possibility that Congress could pass a narrower law that would satisfy the constitution.
This issue was also addressed by the court, and found wanting. The big reason is that CU's spending was an "independent expenditure"--it did not give any money to any political candidate, nor to any political party, nor did it coordinate with any candidates or parties. It didn't even endorse a particular party or candidate; it just criticized Hillary Clinton. If CU's spending could be construed as a quid-pro-quo, so could just about any form of political advocacy. Obviously, politicians probably appreciate it when private parties (corporate or otherwise) are critical of their opponents, and unscrupulous politicians might even be tempted to show favoritism as a result--but that clearly doesn't justify Congress banning independent criticism of political candidates!
If by "common sense conflicting with the actual meaning of the law", you mean that ignoramuses misinterpreted, and continue to misinterpret, the Court's "probably correct" decision, I suspect you are likely correct. And in the sense that ignoramuses, in this matter and many others, vastly outnumber those who actually know what they're talking about, I agree that the decision was likely not "broadly popular." But I don't agree that SCOTUS perpetrated a "needless own-goal," in your words, by arriving at a well-reasoned and probably correct decision, just because it was misrepresented and misunderstood by left-leaning pundits and their gulls.
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You are conflating nonprofits, which are simply ordinary corporations structured in such a way that profits are not returned to the shareholders, and charitable organizations, which are a special subset of nonprofit corporations to whom donations are deductible from income for the purpose of income tax calculations. I agree that this is primarily a legislative distinction and not a constitutional one, though the unique status of religions as organizational entities complicates things.
This I strongly disagree with. "The press" (note not capitalized, as in the original) at the time of the Constitution did not refer to institutional media corporations and accordingly they should be given no special constitutional protection. This vernacular meaning did not really come into existence until the 20th century. "The press" referred to a type of technology, to emphasize that freedom of speech didn't apply only to oratory. It definitely did not mean a class of people or corporations.
Yes, it's likely my capitalization and description was a bit misleading on the press point. I wasn't rigorous enough because I felt it wasn't strictly relevant to my overall point, which was more about how "associations of people" and their money use being distinguished as different types is purely a legislative and societal artifact (unless it's corruption-adjacent or the like), and not a Constitutional or rights issue, with the caveat that yes, churches are a special case we often tip-toe around. Well, traditionally. Turns out most people haven't thought about why churches are traditionally tax-exempt at all, or if they have, it wasn't very thought-through (reddit, cough).
Also yes, typically when you say nonprofit people think 501(c)4, and that's what I was rolling with, but you're absolutely correct 501(c)3 and other variants exist. Thanks for bringing up the clarifications.
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The issue wasn't that they made a movie, or that they wanted to show it on TV, but that they paid Comcast a ton of money to make it available for free on-demand. Considering that, most of the time, networks pay the creators to air their media and not vice-versa, this made it look more like a political ad than a normal documentary. I agree that the decision was correct, but the upshot was that PACs that run ads that are virtually indistinguishable from official ads are able to accept unlimited donations, which seems contrary to the spirit of restricted campaign donations. They can't endorse actual candidates, or coordinate with campaigns, but they can run the kinds of relentless attack ads that actual campaigns have been running as long as I've been alive.
This seems to be a common view of the outcome of the decision, but Justice Stevens' dissent makes the point that Citizens United could have poured unlimited funds into publishing and promoting the movie through a PAC without violating the statute. He argues that CU only violated the law by funding the movie through from their corporate treasury, rather than through a PAC. That's a big component of his argument that the 1A wasn't violated; he says the statute didn't ban CU's speech, it just diverted that speech through a different mechanism.
Which, if correct, makes the outrage over the CU decision even more puzzling. None of the critics of CU seem to be saying, "Unlimited campaign finance spending by corporations is just fine, actually, as long as it's done through a PAC rather than the corporate treasury!" That's why I still feel like I'm missing something.
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This seems like a remarkably poor argument. One of the most obvious characteristics of advertisement, relative to other forms of media, is that the people they are supposed to be consumed by aren't demanding them. If I make a movie and offer to pay the theatres to screen it for free, that is very, very different from me making an ad, and paying the theatres to play it before the movie other people actually want to see. As a general rule, ads are not made exclusively and intentionally for optional viewing.
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Well this itself is pretty contradictory to the whole idea of freedom of speech anyways. So its kinda a feature of the 1st Amendment. The problem with CU is it split the baby instead of negating all federal campaign finance law.
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Seconded.
One of the few times i can recall actually having my mind changed in an internet argument was somone making the argument that CNN, the Washington Post, FOX News, Et Al were all corporations and if "freedom of the press" didnt protect them, who did it protect?
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The press misreported it for political reasons and people believed them.
I don't think the press even misreported it. The talking points were true. It did in fact allow unlimited money from corporations to be poured into political advertising. They just expected people to laugh at the absurdity of considering money (in the form of advertising and advocacy) to be a form of speech.
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Citizen's United? You mean the one where the court decided that making a movie about Hillary Clinton was covered under freedom of speech?
The same one where the government's lawyers argued that bureaucracies had the power to ban books if said books had even a single sentence of political advocacy. But only during election season. It's a limited power you see.
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In what way would you say that Citizens United was an "own goal"?
Described a bit more in another reply, but it was not only unpopular but felt like a violation of common sense for most Americans. Thus, theoretically avoidable and a candidate for a classic SC "punt" to the future, which have their place.
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It only seems like that now. The wailing and gnashing of teeth felt much like the 2016 election, and for an equally long time.
Virtually any (consistent) legal scholar will tell you that the original Roe decision was a major stretch. Yes, everyone was surprised it was overturned because public support for abortions is so high, but to say there's no "strong reason" isn't true. We're talking about the court's power being derived from social consensus - part of that, in turn, is derived from consistency and adherence to reasonable legal doctrine. They spent political capital to pay down what was essentially legal technical debt.
I agree with your stance on ethics codes and these free trips etc. For the most part. I don't see a strong enough connection between these conflicts of interest and results, and I've wined and dined enough executives who don't end up paying me for years to know that it takes two to tango when it comes to corruption. I'm not super well-informed here actually, but I also think that the standards for judicial asceticism seem to be a bit different depending on what side of the ideological divide someone falls on.
Notable that much gnashing was indeed had, but Kerry himself did not talk about it very often on the campaign trail, and "true winner" rhetoric was mostly confined to the fringes and/or typical media hyperbolizing. While "true winner" rhetoric is still mostly confined to GOP fringes today, (and hyperbolized in a different direction by the media) Trump himself is one of the most extreme proponents, despite the clear (and VERY inconsistent) logical gaps. That's worth mentioning.
I'm a compromise-first kind of guy, and when it comes to all the massive unknowns and ethical issues when it comes to fetuses and personhood, splitting the difference and saying "well too early is obviously more fine, and too late is obviously less fine, and in the middle these clash and it's super subjective, so let's just cover the basics and let the states do the fine details" is a fairly intuitive approach. It leaves people only mildly mad, and plenty distracted by the middle-fights, which means it only becomes partially an existential battle of core values/principles. Very practical, since personhood is hella NOT defined for us. Yes, in principle, it really should be a states thing because states get the non-specified situations most of the time in those cases. I merely point out that states already had a big say in the process, so to upend that and go "all right, we murdered the referee, go to town" seemed to me just a little... irresponsible.
ninja edit: minor wording changes in first paragraph
This should be the role of Congress however. To elevate this to the role of a Constitutional right, it needs some grounding in the text itself. It is not the job of the Constitution or the Supreme Court to mandate common-sense compromises across controversial policy decisions. That path only ends with the Court as a superlegislature and Congress relegated to the role of implementing their edicts.
Incorrect. It's not a specifically listed Constitutional right, but the Constitution also specifically says that other rights exist that they didn't mention. Please look into the ninth amendment, which was put in place to counter exactly the argument you are advancing. "Elevation" of a right, as you phrase it, the text says is explicitly not required in order for the right to be legitimate or exist as a right. Life is one of those things, where it's clearly a natural right (not to have people murder you), but abortion provides a tricky question in that you have a collision of two seemingly intuitive rights, when you have considerations about the mother as well in play.
And in fact a lot of these rights are specifically left to the states to sort out. Congress, eh, maybe? Personally I think no. The 10th has slightly different language, but seems to hint at this being the state's job specifically. A counterbalance, of course being equal protection stuff (14th), which traditionally is used instead because it's easier for a judge to talk about and more specific, and sometimes allows for federal action. There's further discussion on that issue, it's been a little while for me, but the general thrust of everything I've just said is well-grounded. So even though the ideal scenario, from a textual and legal perspective, is for the states to sort it out, it's also totally within the general realm of the Supreme Court's role to handle, and courts in general, though the last 100 years of history has been a bit uneven in that regard. Unenumerated rights are definitely a thing, so even if it's not totally clear who should be taking up the burden of reasoning through them, and I sympathize with your desire to leave it entirely to legislative efforts, it's also relatively okay for courts to do this, even if they are reluctant to.
Anyways, Dobbs does grapple with some of these issues. However, it did not necessarily need to. While Dobbs is a more correct, more firm foundation, I think on balance the practical and intuitive stability offered by Roe outweighed this. "Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good" type of reasoning.
Are there any examples of a court reading a right to exist from the ninth amendment? Not that I disagree in principle, but every time I've mentioned it in the past, people more knowledgeable than I have observed that it's never actually cited in practice. IMO this means that the Anti-Federalists were right: All the rights we didn't enumerate basically don't exist.
If I recall correctly, there’s a decent history of “baby ninths” that certain state constitutions will enumerate, and this occasionally bubbles up beyond state courts, but in practice it either stays on a state level, or when it reaches a federal level these types of questions are slightly better suited to the 14th amendment. It’s not that the 9th is irrelevant, it’s just often the more difficult path to legally argue and decide, so even when it’s relevant it’s rarely used directly. I’d say that we certainly have specified other rights over the years, but the worry about only enumerating some rights, putting them on a pedestal, definitely seems to have been born out.
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Except that the blue tribe controls what legitimacy means. Once they have the court making 100% Blue decisions again, it'll be "legitimate" except for a few malcontents in the dying remains of the more radical part of Red. The bulk of Red will accept the court no matter what, because they accept the legitimacy of institutions axiomatically.
The core red tribe is not shrinking.
The core Red Tribe trusts the institutions even when those institutions are blatantly abusing them. Some of them will mistrust a particular institution when it's doing something particularly bad extremely publicly (e.g. the Loudon County School Board). But as soon as the heat's off they'll go right back to trusting them.
@hydroacetylene is correct.
It's hard to overstate how much true "deplorables" are blackpilled on politics. This explains the enduring MAGA base, but also its Trump (as a person) centric nature. Not even the acolytes like Marjorie Taylor Green are seen as anywhere near equivalent because everyone in Washington is seen as already corrupted.
The number one mood affiliation / vibe problem with Appalachia, greater Ozarkia, SE Ohio, and the other endemic Redneck and Hillbilly regions is deeply seeded nihilistic views on the future. These people aren't "mad as hell!" they think the game is already over. They vote so solidly for Trump because he's the only one who meets them at that level and seems to be willing to, maybe, burn it all down. The idea that once the Blue Tribe approves something they will "go right back to trusting them" is farcical because most of that trust was already erased by the time Obama was in office (it started during the Clinton years). This is the demographic that is already a full generation into dropping out of the workforce and is now dropping out of life (the often cited "deaths of despair" statistic, while a little misleading in general, is still anchored in the areas I'm talking about).
The change since 2016 and into 2024 is that that nihilism has started to bleed out of these endemically impoverished areas. It starts in the wreckage of coal country and unnavigable hollers that never really had a chance to share in IT-focused growth, moves to flat land rural areas (farms, the Inter Mountain west, eventually the plains), and then gets to the exurbs of the Old Confederacy (interesting to note that Loudoun county, VIRGINIA, is one of the top 5 (!) wealthiest in the country, yet was a flashpoint for very culture war-y topics).
The single critical demographic for this year's election is suburban women. What do they think of the candidates? If you think things are kind of screwed up but your own extended family is more or less safe, healthy, and out of jail, you're probably holding your nose and going for Biden because Trump is just such an ass!. But If a large portion of your extended family male kin are dead, in jail, addicted, even if you "made it out" you might gesture towards "both options suck" but then slam down that Trump lever in the booth when it counts. That's what all them fancy French ladies did
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No, it does not. You would be well served by actually speaking to rednecks at some point.
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Eh, I dunno about that. There's a long history of back and forth about which party is the "defender of the Constitution" and such. They both have held that mantle at different times pretty strongly in the last even 20 years only. Sure, Democrats are playing their hand pretty strong, probably too strong, recently (junk like "democracy dies in darkness" and all that, great on paper, even true on paper, horribly mangled job in practice). Democrats cry wolf about a lot of things. But not Trump. This dude actually jokes around about suspending the Constitution which is not cool and not-so-jokingly asks about deploying troops domestically which we've only seen in living memory a few times in the 60s and once in '92 for the LA race riots. The dude doesn't even pay lip service to checks and balances and admires dictators.
This is not true. On active duty I worked a number of years doing DSCA. I was one of the "troops" (Title 10, as opposed to Title 32) that Trump would hypothetically deploy, and we went all over the country, all the time, careful to not do "law enforcement" but still working very actively in providing security, supplies, support, coordination, and all sorts of other stuff. There is a clear and legal way for the US Military to "deploy troops domestically" for emergencies, and a reasonable interpretation of Trump's remarks would be that he considers the current situation an emergency that would allow that type of legal mobilization.
When you hear States or cities declaring a "state of emergency", that's (generally) the magic phrase to unlock Federal support. Talk to the long term employees at USNORTHCOM and they're still pissed that Louisiana took so long to declare a state of emergency after Katrina, which prevented USNORTHCOM from providing support for the first few critical days.
Ah, I should have been more clear. Great comment and I agree for border stuff. I meant to refer more to e.g. local police departments aren't doing enough against crime so let's send the military. The military just fundamentally doesn't make a great police force. Not permanently. And Trump has a bit of an ego-attitude when it comes to using them for small stuff. Like, clear the protesters near my photo op. Worth noting as well that martial law was discussed in connection to the election. I worry there was a gut instinct to do coup-type things instead of wait for the political and potentially judicial process to play out. That's a little less small stuff. What if the SecDef was even more of a yes-man? Trump has specifically said that he will be selecting more for loyalty this time around than before. Sorta understandable, but also potentially very bad. We often rely on the good judgements of these subordinates to make the democratic and institutional stuff work.
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Except Trump is a Blue tribe defector and still sees the world through that lens, so when he jokes about suspending the Constitution hes doing so to do things totally contemplated by its original form, such as firing all the bad government workers or mass deportation or declaring the southern border crisis an invasion (he's not even really threatening ICE to have a loose ammo policy, which George Washington surely would have.
Haha, can't begrudge a great historical comparison post too much. GW was quite a guy, overall I think we're pretty lucky he was the first president because despite strong anti-monarchy feelings, people sure as hell wanted to keep him for more terms and he left on a good note with a great speech. Could have ended the US experiment right then and there. Well, unless you were one of the rebellious farmers. Then, maybe you weren't so much a fan.
Side bar please for fuck's sake liberals, can we not say this is the most divided the country has ever been? We literally fought a whole-ass civil war.
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...is a piece of paper written by dead men. Adjectives to taste.
...is the legal framework for the world's oldest democracy, possibly most stable democracy by virtue of the first point, strongest global power, strongest global economy, and one that is modifiable by living people at any time? You can make some decent coincidence arguments, but the simple fact remains: the Constitution is actually a big deal.
Fun fact, the only parts of the Constitution that cannot be modified by amendment are Senate representation (can still happen if they give up the representation themselves), maybe core changes like "dissolve the whole Executive branch" or "no more democracy, we are a dictatorship" (this is debated since it is merely implicit), and that's it! That's actually it. Well, okay, way back when there were limits about what you could do for certain slave and tax things, but those expired in 1808. OK, fine, the Supreme Court maybe probably can say no to an Amendment, but they'd have to have a darn good reason, and even then it might not stick (constitution crisis again anyone?). But most people gauge this to be mostly hot air or more of a hypothetical. I feel pretty safe in saying that practically, we can modify anything. You just need a lot of people to agree. As is proper!
Another fun fact is if the federal government is being stubborn, if enough of the state legislatures want to, they can call a convention, suggest some amendments, and then send them directly back to the states to bypass Congress entirely! I always thought that little method was neat, and a nice super-emergency check against Congress.
That was an observation, not a statement of opinion. Politically irrelevant weirdos are not a constituency.
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We had four years of Trump. Not one little suspension of the Constitution. I remember when Bill Clinton called for the suspension of the Fourth Amendment in public housing. As for deploying troops domestically during periods of public unrest such as the Floyd riots... that's what the Insurrection Act is FOR.
Let me put it this way. Trump has, let's say, a 90% chance of not harming the Constitution or the rule of law at all. Maybe higher, because I place a high confidence in general US systemic resilience? I think I'm still allowed to be worried about that 5-10%, because to me, that's well beyond my comfortable threshold for electing a president.
Does this sound crazy? Consider this: how many presidents have suspended parts of the constitution, acted unconstitutionally in a big or blatant way, or triggered a significant constitutional crisis? Madison (war of 1812 militia and war stuff, debated), Jackson(nullification crisis AND outright defiance of SC on Indian removal), Lincoln (habeus corpus in civil war), Wilson (WW1 free speech stuff), FDR (court packing AND Japanese-American citizen internment), Nixon (Watergate and related obstruction); as well as recent examples Bush (wiretapping AND detainment stuff, debated) and Trump (possible bribery AND Jan6, heavily debated) that are worth mentioning. A few other possible violators, depending. I think a few arguments were made for Jefferson for various things, and Truman for some Korean War stuff, and some even say Reagan for Iran-Contra (defying congress outright). I left off Johnson, although he WAS impeached, because the core issue felt like it hinged on technicalities of Cabinet appointments and personality clashes. Of course, the list goes way up if you're talking about ANY unconstitutional action, judged after the fact.
So that's 6-8 presidents out of 46. 10 if you are expansive. Those that threaten the core fundamentals of the nation, that's probably just Jackson for his SC defiance and FDR for court packing (and maybe the four terms if we are being honest, though totally legal it was worrying), because although some wartime stuff is in theory worrying we can probably give a bit of a pass to that, even if it involves some core free speech stuff, due to theoretically all wars having an end date. Trump is definitely not (currently) on that core fundamental list.
So historically only a 4% rate of bigtime, core fundamental danger, though that's a really, really crude calculation where I don't yet know how I feel about it. I'm mildly afraid that Biden will consider a court-packing plan, but this probability I place at more like 3-5%. Trump gets weighted higher at 6-10%. This is subjective, thus I don't expect people to agree. However, I don't consider "not suspending the constitution" as a fair predictor of future behavior just because it's literally the default expectation. We have to look elsewhere. Could we have predicted FDR and Jackson's transgressions? FDR had a lot of sweeping changes, and a lot of them undone by the SC, with big economic pressure. I don't know how useful this is. Major planks of major plans have been knocked out for a lot of presidents, including several recent ones from both parties, no connection with major crises yet. Jackson was highly pugilistic and the classic original populist. However, this is tricky and subjective. I kind of feel like this is a good Trump comparison? It's gotta be, right? But I also think you could come up with other parallels for other presidents with Jackson, so I'm not sure. Maybe the standard is actually talking bad about the SC ahead of time instead? A lot of presidents also grouse about this. I don't think Biden himself does this as much as other Democrats. But he does sometimes.
Got distracted, we return to the original question. Why am I rating Trump higher than Biden in existential risk?
How much of that is due to rhetoric? I've actually rewritten the second half of this comment eight times (I counted), with many, many deleted sentences talking about evidence. Let no one say I can't at least try to be fair, or at least consistent. I think I've decided after this long reflection that it's actually all due to rhetoric and language. If someone makes noises about doing highly dangerous constitutional/existential stuff, am I really supposed to ignore it if most evidence points to it being bluster, though rooted in strong and (I think) genuine feeling? Biden makes noise about court packing. I actually rate this as concerning, I do try to be fair. Trump makes noise about election stuff. Both of these concern core interests. However, court packing would likely fail, whereas election denialism stuff... might succeed? IS that fair? I could possibly be nudged in either direction on Biden court packing. Is my feeling on Trump a sign of TDS? Or is it simply a case of listening to what he literally talks about all the time and treating it at face value on the off-chance it's not superficial but real?
I'm going to make that an actual question. Broadly: does the recent adage "if someone tells you who they are, believe them" hold water when it comes to presidents and what they say?
You're obviously allowed to think that, but it's a ludicrously low number. Trump had 4 years in which he did not harm the Constitution or the rule of law at all. He had policies which were adjudicated unconstitutional, and he modified them to satisfy the courts, but that's about it.
No. Even if someone were to have shown "bribery" (which they simply have not), that would not constitute "[acting] unconstitutionally in a big or blatant way", it would merely be unlawful. Nor is one's supporters rioting at the Capitol that either.
Biden, on the other hand, has his administration actually prosecuting his opposition, and there is evidence of co-ordination between his administration and New York's prosecution of his opposition. That's a threat to our system right there.
To be clear, unlike apparently many Democrats, I'm actually relatively unafraid of so-called "lawfare". Even if it turns "against" Biden. I trust the courts, at least broadly speaking, to deal in facts and weigh evidence. Still, I'm a realist. I know not all the decisions will be perfect, and not all judges are either. See for example Judge Cannon in the Florida case, which seems to me to be a very, very open-and-shut, slam dunk case, tricky procedural classified stuff notwithstanding. I don't like how she has been treating the case. I won't lose sleep over it, just be a little disappointed. This legal aspect is not something I consider to be an existential threat from Trump, even in the Democrat's worst case on this issue.
Parts of the system you can see working even now. The House investigated Biden a million times, as is their right, even if the left complained about it loudly. Guess what? They really didn't find anything at all. The best they could do was an attempted ouster of Garland, which was pretty flimsy, and the vote margins demonstrated that. Even Trump not being removed from office after impeachment I begrudgingly think is the system working. The two party system is pretty flawed but still delivers roughly expected results. I still agree with Mitt Romney's vote and speech on the issue, but if Trump had tried an even more blatant or flagrant bribery scheme than he did, he would have been removed, GOP reluctance or not. I don't love the threshold we've established, but one exists.
Still, a single term is still relative weak evidence. I already agreed about how Trump's first term is evidence for his constitution-abidingness, even though it's weak. We're talking about an inherently rare event, which is tricky from a statistics perspective. My whole thing is, the best we can do is watch the rhetoric. I don't see Biden making inflammatory claims, other than a brief flirtation with court packing, which he ended up sidestepping and burying. I do see Trump making inflammatory claims and ones that seem to violate several constitutional principles. Grains of salt are needed of course. We're not in wartime, so that helps. And I think most attempts to totally defy the Constitution would fail. I'm just explaining one aspect of my vote that I think other people share, even if they haven't thought about it in the same detail. They don't like gambling with existential risk! Saying "oh the risk is low" is not an effective counter-argument and misses the whole point of the objection.
I'm also unafraid of lawfare, because the vast, vast, vast majority of Democrat's have not committed anything close to Trump, and even the most wacky Trump +80 rural county in the middle of Texas or Oklahoma actually will have issues finding 12 jurors (that any Biden/Hillary/Obama/etc. defense team will basically six of) to convict random Democratic officials of whatever crimes people want to charge them with.
Like, there are actual laws about classifield documents or falsifying business records, regardless of your belief of Trump's guilt or innocence. There's not the laws on the books for the random stuff the Right is upset over - and hey, as with good ole' Gold Bars Menendez, if there are actually corrupt Democrat's so be it - as a left-wing social democrat, the more corrupt ones are usually more moderate. Menendez is being replaced with a much more progressive nice Asian-American 41 year old who will be in that seat for the next 30 years.
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...
Thatt's not just subjective, it's so subjective that your conclusion entirely depends on the subjective part. I mean, I could say "Biden has a 5-10% chance of cutting off aid to Sarael" or "Biden has a 5-10% chance of nationalizing Twitter" based on nothing whatsoever, and the percentage is small enough that it would be hard to argue exact numbers.
It's harder and we have to be very honest and transparent about our assumptions, but not impossible. There are a still some obvious guardrails to rare claims. For example, I flat out do not think anyone could make even a half-compelling case for Biden nationalizing Twitter. Few things happen to our complete surprise, when it comes to policy. Biden has talked about court reform before, so it entered the realm of plausibility. Zero people with any power have made nationalizing Twitter arguments, so it's not. Kind of Overton window type stuff, here. Trump has talked about deploying the military in controversial circumstances at least five times, so it enters the realm of discussion and analysis.
Then pick a different example. There has to be some unlikely scenario. Let's go with your original court packing one.
You care about unlikely scenarios that happen at the 5-10% level, yet you don't care about unlikely scenarios that happen at the 3-5% level. Even assuming I fix the numbers so it isn't exactly at 5 (which is covered by both ranges), that's making a really, really, fine distinction. I simply would not be able to estimate such things with enough precision to say "well, maybe it's as high as 3-5%. but it couldn't possibly be as high as 5-10%". And I highly doubt you could really make such estimates either. It's not only subjective, but it can't be anything else; you're pulling numbers out of your hat.
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The lesson of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is that it doesn't matter if the wolf has arrived, the boy has repeatedly abused his responsibility and fostered the conditions for a disaster.
At a certain threshold (we've crossed it!) any villager who comes when the lad calls is a sucker and if the town is ruined by this convergence of circumstances the boy is at fault.
Any self-respecting game theorist would be a fool to heed Blue Media's wailing and gnashing again.
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Why do you care about this, and why should anyone else care about this? The Constitution is dead, and there will be no resurrection. I do not believe that it protects me or my tribe in any meaningful way, and I do not see why I should respect claims of its protection put forward by other tribes. Constitutional claims are useful when they convince other people to drop opposition to one's values or goals. There is no reason to allow them to obstruct one's own values or goals. The constitution means whatever five justices say it means, without limit; benefits are entirely derived from controlling the mechanisms of interpretation, not the document being interpreted. If you have political and social control, you don't need the Constitution, and if you lack it, the Constitution will not help you. This is how the document observably works, and knowledge that this is how it observably works is now reasonably common across the population, and will only grow increasingly common over time as the contradictions inherent to the system continue to express themselves.
Deploying troops domestically was the correct response to the Floyd riots, and the failure to do so seriously damaged what remains of our country. The riots were the culmination of Blue Tribe's long-established strategy of employing organized, lawless political violence to secure political and social power, and they succeeded to an unbelievable degree specifically because no one was willing or able to deploy the appropriate response of overwhelming lawful force on the part of the authorities. That failure made the culture war much, much worse in a way that probably cannot be fixed.
Trump is not a unique threat. He exists because a critical mass of Red Tribe has lost faith in the existing system and wishes to coordinate meanness outside it. If he is finally destroyed that critical mass will find some other avatar or method to coordinate meanness through. They will continue to do so until either they find an effective method to obtain real address of grievances, or until society suffers a fatal rupture. The later seems, admittedly, a more likely outcome, but the former should not be underestimated. The current systems which prevent redress seem to me much more fragile than they generally appear.
Some thoughtful replies to this post. I think your take is pretty interesting.
I'm hesitant to ascribe too much power to the BLM riots, though. While many perceived this as the Left flexing its practical power and control over the masses, I sort of thing it was just an over-indulged feel-good moment for people feeling a bit disempowered (a disempowered feeling being the true, root, and universal problem of our age I feel) on the left and a lot of cognitive dissonance too. So it drew in more people than expected due to those forces, but also on the flip side, I don't think it meaningfully demonstrated any actual control over the masses. Perhaps part of this lies rooted in media distortion yes, on both sides of the riots. For most participants, the talking point about peacefulness was actually true, and protest is objectively a significant and specially protected right as well as a force for change, generally and historically. Like, for a lot of people, it was like my sister's experience, where she was an impressionable and impassioned 16 year old who stood out with a sign in my very low-Black state of Oregon, in the suburbs, and... yeah that was the whole experience. Fox News did not portray this, not to a degree proportional to its reality OR its importance. Conversely, MSNBC was patently dishonest with its viewers. Ignoring the, uh, literal fucking flames, the beatings, the violence, all of this was difficult to watch. Police were defanged and demonized. Random Defund types were given megaphones. A lot of Red people were rightly feeling like they were watching some news describe an alternate reality.
Turns out all the public really wants is slightly more police, but with some accountability mechanisms that actually work, and which currently only barely exist. And guess what? BLM protests were actually, uh, fucking successful in the sense that body cam adoption rates among police officers have skyrocketed. Okay, fine. The accountability portion did not happen, not really. I still am waiting for that. It sucks. At the same time, it's clear that a lot of the numerical bigness of the BLM protests was not in fact "true believers" but fadsters. The accountability portion didn't happen because it turns out that while people vaguely want accountability, they currently don't actually want it bad enough. Possibly because most voters don't imagine themselves ever being on the wrong side of the law? Maybe we just need a few more scandals? Some police union reform? It will happen eventually.
The constitution has actual and practical meaning insofar as the well-founded and established legal protections derived therefrom provide functional and meaningful relief to abuse when seeking legal recourse. This actually accounts for many citizens, including you. Even top-end brokenness doesn't cancel out the taken-for-granted norms that are backed up by this option of last resort. Dysfunction in the Supreme Court does not in nearly any practical way diminish you and your actions, because they are not rewriting the entire body of common law that works jointly with relevant daily laws. The legal inertia of the legal system is not just massive, it is gargantuan. Of course, state-level laws are far and away the most impactful to individuals. There is likely some merit to a dedicated color-tribe to moving into an aligned state, but beyond that, no difference.
I think people confuse the lethargy of the system with inherent dysfunction. However, to throw out an ad-hoc rule of thumb, it only takes 10 years at a maximum for true and deep-seated, popular change to show up in actual law and legislatures. This is often longer than comfort. I get it. But redress is most certainly there.
You missed something. The document still has a strong guiding influence on the forms and functions alike of the use of said control. It's a well-worn groove that least-resistance rules say will often offer an underlying structure and direction to this exercise of power. In addition, there is strong legal inertia as previously discussed. In fact, the whole point of the Constitution, at its core, is that it provides a robust mechanism that can balance majority-tyranny with minority-rights while also accounting for future shifts in opinion, because some shifts are fleeting fads while others are more durable. Almost every single mechanism in the document is concerned with allowing some small amount of temporary change just in case the feeling ends up being real, while allowing for great shifts when these changes end up being persistent, and the latter is often deemed more important when the two conflict.
However! The only non-intuitive thing in the constitution is that it has a very strong allowance and permissions for State structures specifically. This is, in a way, a historical artifact of the at times greatly autonomous 13 colonies with separate charters and governance. Thus, the Senate being the way it is. Population disparities between states is the greatest foundational threat to the country and constitution, in this framing. The current national political situation almost perfectly reflects this. Personally, I'd split up the bigger states and admit them to the Union as new states, with combining states on the table as the stretch goal and totally redrawing lines as the super stretch goal, but I'm sadly not in charge :(
The problem with doing this is that this is unequivocally and permanently bad for Blue power.
Which, obviously, Blues won't like; since this will create a permanent Red Senate that can just block Blue policy goals (which will tilt the balance of power even more in the relatively-unaccountable executive direction) and has long-term ramifications about how their Tribe can exert influence going forward (since a sudden loss of territory in close proximity to the cities opens the door to massive State income and sales tax arbitrage, resource extraction is still rather lucrative in the states that have them, lawfare/process-as-punishment against Blue policies is more practical due to newly-independent police, etc.).
And sure, it's possible to create new states such that it advantages both Blue and Red, but doing that would require nonsense solutions that create city-states in flyover country (because cities are the only places that vote Blue, almost like the Blues are a purpose-built city interest faction or something). Sure, it could give the political situation a chance to stabilize if there were any other fault-lines other than "urban core" vs. "everyone else", but the economy has been hollowed out so much that I'm not convinced it's even possible (as the nation to the immediate north demonstrates: the "third way" Western left party was extraordinarily strong ~15 years ago, but is on track to disappear entirely in the next election).
Really? I’m pretty sure this is considered a Blue policy, though it might depend on the construction. Overall the Democrats usually win the popular vote but the Senate skews Red, this proposal is intended to level out the disparity between the two. Merging in particular disfavors Red, since rural states are lower population.
No, the trickiest issue is that even if we could balance the Red/Blue short term impact, it’s hard to actually draft a workable compromise because literally every state needs to individually give specific consent to border modification. Any one single state could torpedo the whole deal. There’s currently only a few places that would probably assent right away: for example Eastern Oregon has long wanted to join Idaho, and honestly they are a great fit.
I am visualizing an approach that would keep as many current state borders as-is as possible. So in practice we wouldn’t be gerrymandering cities, just slicing up bigger states into logical regions. For example California seems to be able to split in either 2 or 3, vertically stacked, without too much issue.
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A North/South/West Texas split would create three upper-end-of average states, all of which would be pretty red. You could do a state of Rio Grande, which would probably be swingy, but look like obvious gerrymandering, or a set of even more obviously gerrymandered exclaves that are solid blue states. Ditto Louisiana; the obvious split would be north/south, both of which would be small red states.
But nobody's proposing those sets of splits. The main demand for a new state is to split off eastern Oregon- again, pretty red. Likewise, Northern California has a fairly fringe but real movement to split off from California; this is a red-leaning state of Jefferson. Upstate New York has wanted to split in the past, I doubt they're going to be a blue state.
For some reason, the people who actually want to have their state split up such that they're under a different government are all republicans with democrat-controlled state governments.
Whereas the split they'd actually need to come up with would be "State of Austin" and "State of Texas", since Austin's policy goals are quite a bit more suppressed by the rest of the state than the converse [whether the policies Austin wants are right or wrong is out of scope].
Which is why I think that, if we wanted it to be perceived as fair by both sides, it'd have to be city-states made up of Blue cities in perma-Red states- as this is the reverse of the "some reason" you're hinting at (which, again, comes down to "consent of the governed is not equally geographically distributed", and both Blues and Reds have motivated reasoning for not understanding that).
But nobody seems to want that. Even in blue cities on the borders of red states(that is, not Austin), they usually don't want to have a different state. I don't think there's any movement for Kansas City to be its own state. Nor New Orleans or Miami.
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Deploying troops is a serious matter and a last resort to only be used in the most serious riots that are absolutely beyond the control of the police and state National Guard. Once a riot becomes an insurrection the insurance policies aren't required to pay due to the exclusion for acts of war. If Trump had invoked the Insurrection Act he would have drawn the ire of the people he was supposedly trying to help, which is why he didn't do it.
Local authorities across the nation ordered their police to stand down. State authorities refused to deploy the national guard. Innocent people were victimized en masse and without recourse by organized political violence with clear, bidirectional ties to both the Democratic party and to Blue Tribe institutions generally. Those few who tried to defend themselves were subjected to nakedly political prosecutions on the flimsiest of pretexts and in defiance of the facts.
Blue Tribe, both its elite leadership and its general population, accepted, endorsed and supported these crimes. They collectively encouraged and enabled rampant, lawless political violence with the explicit goal to secure political and social power for themselves and their own interests, and they coordinated overwhelming retaliation against anyone who resisted or objected. Many of the Blue commenters here did the same. One of them argued at length and quite explicitly that it was better for people like myself and my family to accept beatings at the hands of a mob rather than defend ourselves with lethal force, because criminal mob beatings were statistically less likely to kill people than lawfully justified gunfire. That's the sort of conversation that leaves an impression.
Given those circumstances, the military would have been the correct response. It would have been an entirely reasonable response in the face of far less severe violations of the peace. The government's failure to deliver the appropriate response lingers, and the debt to justice will need to be repaid at some point in the future. It manifests, here and now, in markedly reduced trust in our social institutions, and a reduced willingness to expend efforts and make sacrifices for the preservation of those institutions. Every dispute is now conducted in the knowledge that Blues, speaking generally, are the sort of people who will happily endorse our victimization without apparent limit, and think themselves virtuous in the process.
You couldn’t be more wrong. Almost everyone who was ‘victimized’ by BLM / Summer of Floyd riots voted Democrat. Red tribe suburban and exurban neighbourhoods were almost never targeted and their residents suffered minimal deterioration in QoL compared to inhabitants of big cities.
Showing these people what the logical outcome of what was previously considered harmless hippie justice reform activism actually is was a necessary and important move, even if it led to the unfortunate deterioration of some American cities. The idea that the army was necessary to control the riots is laughable. A few dozen police officers could have controlled even the absolute worst of them. It was state and municipal elected officials who were responsible for what happened.
If Trump had sent in the military to crush the riots, the violence would have been solved, the blue urban governments would have grandstanded against the racist, oppressive, anti-black hijacking of the federal government by colonialist forces in collaboration with the brutal right wing military that oppresses PoC at home and abroad, and their constituents would have loved it, even as intervention saved their cities.
Rising crime, homelessness, and lawlessness had to be blamed by blue tribe citizens on their own elected officials with no convenient scapegoats or excuses. Sending in the military would have guaranteed no negative repercussions for the justice/police/bail/etc reform movement whatsoever.
As the saying goes "could've, would've, should've". The point is they didn't.
The Insurrection Act specifically takes that into account (or Eisenhower couldn't have used it). From 10 USC 253: "the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection"
Sure, but it doesn’t matter; Trump sending in the troops to control the riots would guarantee Democratic controlled cities remain shitholes for decades because local government can swing to the left with zero backstop, safe in the knowledge that if things get really out of hand the federal government will rescue them and provide a convenient scapegoat for any excess heat generated in trying to solve the problems caused by leftist policies.
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Do you remember the most recent presidential inauguration when DC was literally locked down by troops despite there being literally zero threat of any kind?
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I don't think this is true. If the supreme court did things obviously false, and the executive disagreed, on something that mattered, and had popular opinion on his side, I don't think there'd really be too much trouble with him doing what he wanted.
This is just false. Supreme court justices are not infrequently honest, and trying to do interpretation, not fabrication. At the very least, they always are pretending to be interpreting the text, which does provide constraints on their behavior.
Treating the constitution with respect is a valuable norm because it does, in fact, constrain behavior. Less than it used to, as people kept stretching things, but it does constrain behavior, and usually in ways that make things better.
I'm not claiming the Court can't be defied. Obviously it can be, and in fact several of its recent pro-2A findings are being defied at this very moment in various states, most notably New York and California, and have been for years now. I'm claiming that to the extent that any outcome can be attributed to "The Constitution", it is actually happening because the Justices want it to happen, not because of the ink on the paper. There is no ground reality, there is no platonic form, and anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves. Abortion has both been protected and not protected by the Constitution, and the answer to the question of which state was "correct" is mu.
It is of course the case that things happen because they (in some sense) want them to happen; actions happen by agents. But pretty often, the reason why they want it to happen is because that's what they think the Constitution says, and they're trying to be faithful interpreters.
Why not? I think language has meaning.
This particular piece of language has managed to hold enough people in its sway that something vaguely approximating its meaning has been the basis by which we govern the United States of America.
If you try to strip out the Constitution from your understanding of the United States, you will understand it worse, not better.
No, it's not moot. The norm of following the Constitution is important and a valuable check against limitless power-seeking. That norm means that it's useful that we should try to care what the Constitution says. Further, interpretation socially recognized as correct helps to confer legitimacy. Social recognition of correctness of interpretation tends to correlate with correct interpretation loosely, at least, because many people can read.
Language has meaning to the extent that people are willing to cooperate in building and maintaining that meaning together. If they are not, then it cannot. For any deeper "meaning" than that, I think you need something approximately like an appeal to God. I'm willing to accept such appeals, but others are very clearly not, and neither you nor I have any means by which to compel such acceptance.
And it just so happens that "faithful interpretation" consistently results in judgements that match their own perceptions of what is just and good, and sometimes no more than what is expedient. Any contradictions between these judgements and the text itself are easily resolved by words words words. I'm given to understand that "emanations" and "penumbras" are sometimes involved.
In the past, certainly. In the present, not really, no. In the future, not at all, I should think. Common knowledge and path dependency trump all other factors. It is certainly true that understanding the Constitution is necessary to understand how we got to where we are now, and the short version is that when it was written people really believed in it. But to understand where we are going, one needs to understand that this belief has largely died, and within a generation at most will be entirely extinct.
Supreme Court decisions favoring Blue Tribe observably have vastly greater impact than decisions favoring Red Tribe. Decisions favoring Red Tribe have been quite explicitly defied by lower courts, and the Supreme Court has then quite explicitly allowed such defiance to stand. I have no problem explaining such behavior: the Court realizes that its power derives from social consensus, not formal law, and recognizes that the consensus is against it and that further attempts to enforce the law will cost it more than it can afford. But if you believe the Constitution is really where their power springs forth, I'd be interested in your alternate explanation of such behavior. The Supreme Court sided with Dick Heller, yet he still can't have his gun. Why is that?
And given that I observe that decisions favoring my tribe are routinely nullified by Blues wherever they are stronger, why should I support upholding decisions favoring blues where we Reds are stronger? What value is secured by doing so?
I don't think I can offer a response better than that of Lysander Spooner:
The value of the Constitution came when it acted as a hard limit on the scope and scale of political conflict. People understood it to put many tools of power off the table for most practical purposes, removing them from the normal push and pull of the political contest. When we vote, the Constitution means that we're voting on policy, not on our basic political rights. If we lose, we suffer the other side's policies for a few years, but our rights are inviolate.
Only, they aren't, and anyone who believes otherwise at this point is quite foolish indeed. Progressives and their Living Constitution ideology mean that all bets are off, and indeed we have seen abuses and usurpations committed and upheld that would have been unimaginable as little as ten years ago.
"They wouldn't do that...." Yes, they would, for any value of "that" that one cares to specify. Americans, Blue or Red, are human, and "that" is what humans reliably do. Presidential candidates have campaigned on the idea of taxing religions they don't like, and openly laughed at the idea of constitutional limits on their ambitions. The theoretical grounding is solid, and the underlying logic is simply correct. Where your "norms" are supposed to fit into this picture I really cannot say.
Turn back to your favorite histories, and contemplate the fact that for all our technological sophistication, nothing about our core nature as humans has ever really changed. Humans will inevitably human. We create systems to control and channel our nature, but what our hands make, they can unmake as well. The Constitution arose from a specific culture, and it worked due to a specific set of cultural norms and assumptions. That culture changed, the norms and assumptions no longer apply, and so the Constitution is dead. To the extent that common knowledge of its death has not proliferated, it serves mainly to fool people into making sacrifices that will not be reciprocated by those who caught on a little quicker.
I don't have much to add, been reading you for a while, but just want to say that you have a fascinating blend of what I think is cynicism and naivete. You are aware of power law and how politics aren't real, just kayfabe thrown over the squabbling of groups in the game of power, but you also believe that, in your words, the hunger for justice and the desire to rebel against the intolerable is a part of human nature.
I find this fascinating. I don't believe the latter at all; in the words of greater men than I, all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
I think cooperation is possible at scale, because societies that can coordinate meanness to other societies generally tend to do better than those who can't. They just need, I don't know, some kind of mutually acceptable target. Nothing unites people like a common enemy, especially if the enemy is existential.
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Or you can just be a textualist about meaning. Sentences make assertions, commands, etc. Words have ordinary denotations, at least within a given language and context. You can throw that together with some grammar and get a more-or-less well-defined meaning to what it's saying. I don't think my writing this only contains any meaning from social consensus; if you all died halfway through my writing this, it'd still have meaning.
I said "pretty often". I did not say always. Further, if they are erring in their judgment, even just trying, or feeling pressured to make a "good enough" argument will help to constrain.
That said, yeah, the things you list tend to be bad, and were deliberately trying to stretch things.
Don't help it. It's useful.
It's not just path-dependency, as it continues to be used as a reference, and is treated as the supreme law of the land, however poorly. If we collectively, openly, decided tomorrow that it doesn't matter you'd see large changes.
Anyway, I don't think it'll be dead. Conservatives not infrequently turn to it to back up their preferred policies in guns or speech, so there's at least some motive to keep it around, even just in the domain of "let's bash my enemies".
In the recent past. Wasn't true of Lochner, though. (Not that *Lochner was right). In any case, the left kept winning because they'd built up enough institutional power, both in the presidency and in the court system. The right is not currently at that state. That's why it does worse. But what. Do you really think that Blue entities will become more moderate when you tell whatever portion of them who currently have principles that they don't have to care about those pesky things any more?
It'd be more useful, if the right got the level of power that would be needed to effectually ignore the constitution, to bring force to bear to ensure that it's actually followed.
We control SCOTUS now, for the first time in nearly a century. Give it time; the pendulum will swing as bad precedent after bad precedent falls and in 50 years the blues come asking you that same question. Feel free to aid in overturning those precedents, if given the opportunity. But treat it with sufficient seriousness, so that it sticks, instead of giving them an out as soon as your side has power.
If there's one thing the conservative movement's actually managed to do institutionally, it's the federalist society. Don't throw that out.
Yeah, this quote is wrong. It's better to view it as a headwind, maybe—it can be resisted and defeated, but that takes effort, and less is done than without it's presence.
So, sure, we've gotten such a government, but it was slower in coming and still, somehow, smaller and more constrained than it would be did the Constitution not exist.
Sure, it's bad, but imagine how much worse off we'd be without it.
Yes, this is what it's trying to do. Yes, this isn't really what happens, often. But the commitment to constitution means we are at least having to pretend to be trying, which puts us in a better state than if no one cared.
In every trickling force making it easier to follow the status quo. In the respect many people have for things like "rule of law," and so they yield.
I guess I see it as having more weight even with the blues than you do. At least, in things without political valence, like the existence of the 4th amendment, is a very good thing. Don't get rid of that. But even in matters with political valence, they do listen sometimes.
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Why even have a country if you don't believe in anything except exatly what you want? You are kind of that guy though, you're a boogaloo boy.
The point of a country is cooperation to secure the common good. This doesn't work if, as in our present circumstance, we collectively can't agree on the common good. It's not about getting exactly what "I" or "we" want. It's about whether or not there's a rational basis for believing cooperation is possible. With regard to the Constitution, such a belief is no longer rational, and it doesn't seem to me that it can be recovered, because the evolution of our Constitutional understanding is necessarily path-dependent. The arguments that worked before, worked because at the time we hadn't seen their long-term results. We have seen those results, so they won't work again.
If you say so. What follows?
You want violent confrontation to bend others to your will, hoping for collapse for some excitiment, and are dissatisfied when things are going ok.
No, I want me and mine to be left alone to live in peace. I'm happy for offer the same to others. That's just not the direction we appear to be heading in.
How'd you feel about watching the police station burn?
Things are generally not "going okay". It's possible that they'll get somewhat better, and it's also possible that they'll get a whole lot worse. Even the worse outcomes are preferable to living at the mercy of people who hate myself, my tribe and my family, though.
On the topic at hand, I think my argument is pretty solid. The court exists to limit the scale of conflict, but it is failing to do that. If you think the Court is important, this should concern you.
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I just told you not to do this.
You said what you said, he responded, and now you're just repeating yourself. If you want to engage with someone on why they think they way they do, actually engage them, don't just sneer at them.
He asked what follows, that is what follows. The dude self identifies as a violent radical.
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You cannot simply say this isn't working.
What's the alternative?
Radical federalism or large-scale violence, one imagines, but we will be free of each other, one way or the other. Society requires coherent values. That can be accomplished by all the blues sorting themselves into blue areas ruled by blue laws, and all the reds sorting themselves into red areas ruled by red laws, and the two areas generally leaving each other alone. Alternatively, it can be accomplished by not having a society any more. Those seem the most likely outcomes, and I obviously prefer the sorting one. I think you should as well.
It's possible I'm wrong, of course, and time will tell. Given that this is a massively-multiplayer game, though, I'm skeptical as to how long the waiting can really last before things break one way or the other.
Does it? Or does it just require sufficient force to keep the cork in the bottle?
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There is one more. The small, radical, defiant bits of Red Tribe are crushed by main force, the way the stupider parts of it were crushed on January 6. The rest is basically oppressed and shrinks away as its children defect to Blue, with the tactic or explicit approval of their parents. Any Red Triber who becomes defiant is kept in check by other Red Tribers, partially for fear they'll bring Blue's wrath upon themselves, but mostly because Red accepts Blue's legitimacy as long as they hold the institutions with the correct names (by hook or by crook, it doesn't matter).
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Can I ask you to try reading some right wing literature from the late 80s, early 90s? They were also convinced that things couldn't keep getting worse and more degenerate, and that a glorious revolution would happen soon.
They were wrong.
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This is too antagonistic - don't just throw personal attacks like this.
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This statement has never been true for any previous population of humans, and it will never be true for any future population either. The hunger for justice and the desire to rebel against the intolerable is innate to human nature. I say the same to you as I do to others: if you believe that there is a clean victory available for Blues here, you do so because you misunderstand both human nature and some extremely important features of physical reality. To paraphrase a better writer than myself, you've seen two girls and one cup, so you extrapolate out to, say, five girls and two cups. But this is invalid; what's actually going to happen is OnlyFans, something you never saw coming and would never have imagined.
It is true for most people in most times. It is especially true in recent times for those calling themselves "conservatives".
No, most oppressed populations have merely gone along to get along at most times.
Physical reality may ultimately defeat them (at very great cost to the human race). Human nature will not. Most people will do and think what they are told. And since rebellion is a leftist characteristic, Blue Tribe has captured those who do not. Blue holds the institutions, and only Blue has the temperament to rebel. Thus any institution which somehow falls into Red hands can be #Resisted, but as soon as it returns to Blue its word will be law to all.
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And the hunger for justice will be sated by Supreme Justices making a decision. Only some kind of a commie doesn't believe in the institutions passed down from the founding fathers.
You’re doing that thing, again, with the caricatures.
Stop it. Resist the urge for one-liners. They’re not as funny as you think.
I have never intended for even one of my comments to be funny! There is zero funniness desired, as opposed to desperation.
Fine.
I’m still going to ask you to resist the urge. Whatever your reasons, you’ve settled on a style which is against the rules.
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