anti_dan
3hr ago
But Amadan's retort is we can't look at who benefits from tyranny (allegedly the wealthy entitled people) and ignore those who it oppresses (the poor). But that assertion is just untrue.
anti_dan
3hr ago
If that is the genuine reason for the shoot it is wholly unjustifiable under the law. For lethal force to be deployed you need to reasonably fear that the person is imminently going to kill or cause great bodily harm to yourself or others. Defense of others based on a convoluted (and frankly unreasonable) speculation about Babbitt et al's evil mens rea causing bad results 30+seconds after you are contemplating deadly force is completely unjustifiable.
anti_dan
1d ago
Pinochet was pretty objectively good for the lower class in Chile though, so this critique, in in context, makes no sense. If you were complaining about the fates of egghead professors, then perhaps it makes more sense.
anti_dan
1d ago
All the things that happen in tyranny to the lower classes can also happen in anarchy. In fact, they happen more. Just compare the murder stats for the underclass in Chicago vs. a rich suburb thereof. Everyone is better off empirically as law and order is implemented until a tipping point where the upperclass start being worse off.
anti_dan
1d ago
Not really. The reason ICE is visibly present in blue states but not in red states is because of sanctuary laws. In Texas or Florida, once an illegal immigrant fails to show up for a deportation proceeding, or receives a final order of removal police departments across the state receive notice. When they then pull that fellow over for expired plates or DUI or speeding, they then arrest the illegal. That illegal is held for a statutory amount of time, typically 5 business days, for ICE to pick them up. Then ICE takes them to the judge that issued the warrant/order and then puts them on a plane home.
In Minnesota or California, that does not happen. If the illegal gets a DUI, the police just let him go with a court notice to show up in a month. Then ICE has to somehow find out on its own about that court date and arrest him on the courthouse steps, causing a scene. Or they have to go to his home, work, or school, causing a scene. Or they have to do a raid of an apartment complex they have probable cause has many illegals in it, causing a scene. The lack of cooperation causes extra work for ICE per deportee, and also requires more ICE agents.
anti_dan
1d ago
With regards to enforcement, yes. When evaluating the likelihood of imminent threat of death or great bodily harm slow breaches of weak barriers that your fellow officers are giving her free access to while perceiving no threat....
anti_dan
1d ago
Not really relevant as to her threat level to officers because she has just been next to a bunch of them and they suffered no harm and calmly let her do her thing.
anti_dan
2d ago
I've never stood next to a police officer as other people damaged property, no.
But if that was the case and the officers approved of such conduct, as they did, I would think further similar actions are also sanctioned.
anti_dan
2d ago
Nah. People shouldn't be charged so much. The guy should have lost a large civil lawsuit meaning his future earnings to eternity go to Babbitt's children if she has them. Its better to let things lie in the middle.
anti_dan
2d ago
Babbitt was standing next to several other Capital police officers with no barriers between them and her for several minutes. They were unmolested by her. It is, indeed, hard to imagine a reverse situation given the history with people like Rittenhouse having to gun down multiple convicted criminals just to stay alive in a similar situation.
anti_dan
2d ago
What would the purpose of suffering in silence be?
Not having something like a meme, "this is what happened last time Democrats tried nullifying federal law" spoken into existence?
anti_dan
2d ago
The Babbitt situation involved someone breaking a window and then Babbitt attempting to climb through the window. Breaking and entering is not usually part of nonviolent protest.
Babbitt was already in the building with Capitol Police standing next to her as the window portion of the door was broken, doing nothing.
anti_dan
2d ago
While it may feel good to play enlightened centrist and do some both sides’ing, there is a major area where Babbitt differed from Good: Babbitt posed no imminent threat to the officer who shot.
The other major confounder for Babbitt is she had just passed other officers who provided no resistance at all, thereby giving her a contextual clue that her presence was authorized. It is similar to if the other ICE officer, not her wife, was yelling at Good to "floor it".
anti_dan
2d ago
Great, when you get your new scheme implemented WRT tax and welfare and the like you can ping me to get my help with the paring back of immigration enforcement.
anti_dan
2d ago
Its also insane entitlement by Democrats. Imagine any other form of law being basically declared null by some red states during a Democrat administration and just letting people riot around an EPA or IRS facility for months. We know what Merrick Garland would have done. Warrants, Arrests, Frogmarches. And not just on the rioters, we'd be talking about governors and AGs and police chiefs in federal custody.
anti_dan
2d ago
I dont think states should be able to opt out of immigration law because they make them feel bad anymore than I can opt out of tax law because I dont like coughing up 45% of my check to DC.
Unless you disagree with that notion there is no case for this being federal overreach or a police state action.
anti_dan
3d ago
Right, and then the other ICE employee started charging at her, and she feared for her life. I would be scared too if some guy dressed like a muslim terrorist started trying to drag me out of my car. For all she knew, these were just a group of Trump supporters pretending to be ICE.
Now you are inventing Jussie-Smollet like conspiracy theories to explain this woman's conduct. Just why? Its pretty simple what happened. A lady got in her car with the intent to disrupt ICE activity. She was so doing so. She then made a fatal error by accelerating her car and hitting a federal agent who was seemingly a bit trigger happy given his previous hostile experiences with vehicles hitting him.
There's no need to go into good/bad shoot, it was a meh shoot onto a person who created the situation with their intentional lawless activity.
anti_dan
3d ago
It's common in the American conciousness to assume that Iran = bad, but I get the impression that a lot of Iran's badness is exaggerated by Western media.
American media, which is still enthralled with the Obama administration, which wanted to empower Iran, is constantly churning out pro-Iran propaganda. That the average American still thinks Iran is pretty bad is an example of reality winning out over forced media narratives.
anti_dan
3d ago
Seems like you don't understand the psychology of riots. Very few people set out to riot, and certainly there is little evidence jan 6 was such a time. Instead protests escalate to riots when certain factors come to play, most notably on J6 was that no actual guidance was given by police as to what borders were going to be enforced. Instead there was a shoddily constructed perimeter which was quickly abandoned, and then the fleeing police failed to secure the doorways.
anti_dan
4d ago
Thats only a reasonable response if she thought the ICE officer was an impersonator though...
anti_dan
4d ago
I do personally prefer the old rule that police or civilians can use deadly force to subdue criminals fleeing from a felony. Obstruction would not be a common law felony but thats only relevant for a question where the cop shot her in the back while she's on foot.
anti_dan
4d ago
Its simply a bad comparison. The central problem with Jan6th is that the Capital Police consistently failed to do their job, and those failures were the cause that escalated the protest into a riot, and eventually into Babbitt's death. Its important to note that the officer that shot Babbitt was not the first one she encountered that day, she had just walked past several other officers who were acting as if she was legally inside the building. There is no such lack of cohesion here by the ICE officers. None of them are telling her to drive while another is telling her to stop.
anti_dan
5d ago
I think grouping cars, which most Americans have, in with deadly weapons for this purpose, while technically correct, is a good example of the non-central fallacy. "In order to make a living in this country, you need [thing]. If you have [thing], then police are entitled to kill you if you try to escape arrest" is rather Catch-22-adjacent.
The most dangerous thing the average person does in any day in America is get on the road and trust other people to do a good job driving. Adding an additional element of some miscreant going 90 MPH in a 30 and blowing multiple lights/stop signs so they can avoid a petty traffic, misdemeanor, or warrant is not something I would encourage the legal system to incentivize.
And also, when did this trend of people just basically saying civil disobedience = no consequences thing happen? You can protest the law peacefully and boringly with a sign and a lame chant. Going out and stopping cops from arresting rapists because you think rape is good doesnt mean you get a free pass just because you cast a frame. In civil disobedience you serve your time, then convince the public and win a later victory as part of the sacrifice of substantial portions of your life.
Otherwise, everyone could claim to do this and face nothing. Maybe Timmy McVeigh's complaints about the Feds were legit. Why dont we just let him out on his own recognizance for a few decades and then arrest him when he is 99 and we have, as a society, finally determined his cause was bunk.
anti_dan
5d ago
I understand it creates a greater risk to the general public (what if the fleeing suspect crashes head-on into another passenger car?) but that doesn't seem to be a super common outcome, and I don't think “if I don't shoot this guy he might end up causing a fatal accident” is sufficient justification to use lethal force from the start.
It seems fairly common to me. Most local police department have promulgated regulations to terminate high speed chases for the exact reason that the outcome of collateral damage is so incredibly common. Including, frankly, to the officers themselves.
All those are just kinda naked assertions without support. Appeals to better training don't have a schelling point. No one has made a concrete argument that the ICE training academy has any specific failures. The officer in question had 10+ years on the job with no major incidents until someone hit him with their car. As to escalation, they are just doing their job and people are harassing them and obstruction them with cars, and often putting their own bodies in the street. That is naturally escalatory. If you did the same thing to state police en masse, people would also end up in officer involved fatalities. We know why ICE wears masks, its because of multiple credible threats to their families after they have been doxxed online.
Disagree that illegal immigration is not a large problem that requires a large response. Regardless, the set of ICE actions currently being undertaken is not unconstitutional. They are arresting people who have detention holds and/or removal orders, and then from time to time they also pick up people who are in the vicinity that they have probable cause to believe are also illegal.
More assertions not in evidence. Where is your evidence pertaining to some entrance exam or the like that the new ICE hires are akin to "Project 100000"?
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