site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   2087 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for October 16, 2024

The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:

  • Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.

  • Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.

  • Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.

  • Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).

1
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I almost hit a cyclist yesterday while driving. It was very close, and it would have been a t-bone strike while I was accelerating through an intersection.

It was dusk, we were in a crowded residential area, and I was trying to cross a busy road where cross-traffic never stops. I was waiting on a slow-moving car to drive past to the right while there was still some clear space in the traffic going the other way.

I don’t have an excuse. I was anxious about avoiding cars, was only watching headlights, and didn’t see the biker at all. I would have hit him except my wife said something when it became clear I was going to hit him. I braked for my wife’s imaginary biker, and that’s when I saw the back tire clear past my bumper by less than a foot.

He was mad naturally. He yelled out of fear, then yelled of anger and cussed. I felt very very bad and sorry, but I continued on. He didn’t stop cycling either, but he was mad enough I wanted to get the hell away from him anyway.

So I was a little shaken up about it. If I were driving alone I would have scooped him up onto the hood and destroyed his bike.

shows how the health benefits of cycling are to some degree offset by accidents

It's just not worth it, and I can't understand why some insist on taking the risks anyway.

If it's any consolation a good cyclist would have clocked you a mile away as 'that guy that will hit me' and altered his path accordingly -- it's not even that hard, and makes you a much better driver to boot!

When I (very briefly) dabbled in triathlons in college, I heard about a student a few years ahead of me who broke a leg getting hit by a car while on his road bike in town. A professor of mine sustained nerve damage in his arm and leg after some kind of accident on a road bike. A relative of mine needed surgery on his rotator cuff after falling off a road bike on a bike path. A guy in one of my classes lost his leg below the knee while riding a motorcycle when a driver didn't see him while pulling out of their driveway.

On the one hand, you can never be too careful on the road (seriously). I have a bad knee and hip from a car accident. But on the other, maybe it's not worth riding a bicycle, a road bike, or a motorcycle. Too many people get fucked up from an accident. Yeah, it's the driver's fault. Is that gonna fix your permanently broken body? No. So why risk it? The cyclist, the driver, and their families are all traumatized from something that could've been avoided.

So I was a little shaken up about it. If I were driving alone I would have scooped him up onto the hood and destroyed his bike.

You break his legs and throw him in the traffic

Are there any strategies for controlling/reducing anger that actually work?

For me, redirecting my anger towards work helps tremendously. It works so good in fact that I sometimes deliberately make myself angry just to get something done.

Reminds me of a friend who wanted to get slapped in the face before every HEMA tournament fight.

Instrumental rationality. Think about the goal you are trying to achieve and then think about if a display of anger will help or hinder your progress toward that goal. Then think about the best way to achieve your goal and work on doing that action. It is redirecting the anger to a productive use and re-engaging the rational part of your brain.

One small caveat is that sometimes a controlled performative display of anger may be appropriate.

HPMOR chapter 19 may help you internalize this lesson:

What you demonstrated today, Mr. Potter, is that - unlike those animals who keep their claws sheathed and accept the results - you do not know how to lose a dominance contest. When a Hogwarts professor challenged you, you did not back down. When it looked like you might lose, you unsheathed your claws, heedless of the danger. You escalated, and then you escalated again. It started with a slap at you from Professor Snape, who was obviously dominant over you. Instead of losing, you slapped back and lost ten points from Ravenclaw. Soon you were talking about leaving Hogwarts....

...The next time, Mr. Potter, that you choose to escalate a contest rather than lose, you may lose all the stakes you place on the table. I cannot guess what they were today. I can guess that they were far, far too high for the loss of ten House points

Then Harry realizes:

I would have taken the slap, waited, and picked the best possible time to make my move...

I could never get into HPMOR. I've tried several times, but the author always gets caught in their own intellectual obsessions and forgets about characterization, the plot, and generally seems like an autist overanalyzing every situation. It reads like bad Frank Herbert, or a particularly bad Ender's Game with a need to articulate every thought an analysis of every situation.

I find that my anger is often very physiological. My heart rate is elevated, I'm pumping more adrenaline, by blood sugar is low from hunger, etc.

It helps me a lot to address the physical aspects of anger. Slow down my breathing to control my heart rate. Take a little walk like I'm warming down from exercise. Or just have a snack.

Even if it doesn't get at the underlying cause of my anger I'm at least a little better off at thinking logically and dealing with the problem.

yes, many such cases. But they are not scalable or have downsides. Smoking is calming ...but lung cancer.

Zyns work pretty well too, with almost zero downside. Nothing quite like sitting down and having a think & a smoke though.

Working out until exhausted.
Getting laid.
Going on a hike or chilling by the water.
Venting to friends and family.
Martial arts sparring.
Alcohol, sometimes. But really not a good road to go down.

Key is to put your mind and body in a different context so that you see the thing that angers you from a different perspective and realize that there's more to life than that.

t. coping with seething about work for months now

Alcohol, sometimes. But really not a good road to go down.

No kidding, even aside from health issues. Some people get much more angry when drunk. The chance of curing a minor anger problem that's at the "asking for advice on the internet" stage isn't worth the chance of turning it into a major anger problem that might reach the "asking for advice from the defense attorney" stage.

I like that you put "working out until exhausted" at the top. Even just "working out until calm" is good. Either way you still only have a chance of curing the problem long-term, but now the worst case scenario is that whenever you get a needlessly elevated heart rate you make it needful and improve your health.

Are we talking impulsive immediate anger or the slowburn, constant anger of the jaded?

For 1, counting to (insert number) before reacting is homespun, but works. Increase the number as needed.

For 2, you got me. Finding humor in situations seems to help, but real laughter is a balm for the soul, if you can manage it.

Something up?

Loving your anger and accepting it, letting it flow through you. Check out https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/

Venting it works in the short term, but might actually make it build up faster in the future. Not sure about the mechanism, but I recall reading about these dynamics and it largely matches what I anecdotally observe.

I sometimes succeed at channelling it into productive energy, though mysteriously tools seem to be break with unsual frequency in such phases.

Just walking away and cooling off...doesn't really work for me. Not in the long run, anyways.

Ultimately I suppose it's best to remove the cause of the anger from your life.

(Reposting in the latest Wellness Wednesday following a suggestion)

I am seeking advice on how to fix a chronic, persistent, extreme lack of discipline.

I am currently 25, live with my mother, I have failed out of college (again) and I currently work part time at a grocery store for minimum wage within walking distance (I still don't have my driver's license). The reason I failed out of college both times was that I just didn't show up to class. When I did show up, I passed the exams with no real problem and I managed to pass a few classes with that. I have yet to tell my mother I failed the second time. I went to a 4 year college, failed out of that, then went to a 2 year community college. The only reason I managed to get a degree was that it was during COVID years, so the standards were super lax. I'm pretty sure I missed a few final exams, didn't hand in almost any assignments and yet somehow I still passed. After passing, I went back to the 4 year school and went back to failing.

I only have the job because, after I finished the 2 year degree, I didn't sign up for classes for the 4 year college in time, so I was doing nothing for months. My mother kept telling me to get a job since I wasn't in school and was threatening to kick me out if I didn't. She gave me multiple deadlines that I blew past with no consequence, but I could tell she was getting increasingly fed up. I ended up getting a job and I'm pretty sure if I waited a month or two longer, I would've been kicked out.

After the second time I failed, I decided to go to a therapist. She told me to see a psychiatrist for ADHD. He eventually said I have ADHD, and even though I am still quite skeptical of the diagnosis (for reasons I can go into if needed someone asked, so I answered here), I have been taking the Methylphenidate ER that I've been prescribed. I am only doing this because my mother has great insurance so all the therapists, doctors and medication is all paid for fully by insurance, but that will only last until I am 26 (close to a year from now). She also doesn't know I am going to a therapist, doctor or that I am taking any medicine.

With regards to my job, for reasons that I still do not know, I am able to go to my job without missing a day. I am almost always a few minutes late (anywhere from 0 to 10 minutes), but given the super low standards of a minimum wage job, I never get reprimanded in any way for it. But, I still always show up, unlike my school classes. This confusion is part of what prompted me to go to therapy. I have repeatedly tried to figure out why I am late and to fix it, but nothing really worked.

So, the question is: what do I do? Here is me listing all the options I can think of

  1. Continue going to therapy and seeing the psychiatrist. Both haven't been helpful so far (I've seen two therapists so far. the first abruptly told me she was leaving that practice. Both have been similarly effective), but maybe they just need more time. Hopefully, I will learn why I didn't go to class and fix that, then I will go back to school, finish my degree and get a job like "normal". My worry: it's been 3 months of this so far and I can't see any progress, so I am not too optimistic. Plus, I'm not sure I can hide me failing from my mother much longer and if she does find out, I'm pretty sure I will be kicked out. Maybe I need a new therapist? If it's not part of insurance, as all the good therapists seem to be, I don't think I'd be able to afford it with my minimum wage job. And, even though every therapist that doesn't take insurance says they offer it cheaper for people that find it hard to pay, I'm not sure I'd qualify since, even though I make little money, my mother makes decent money.

  2. Give up on college, give up on therapy, the psychiatry, the adhd medication and try to find a job with the 2 year degree I have. Hope that what happened with me not going to college doesn't happen at my new job. My worry: doing this without understanding why I failed in college seems very risky. I'm also not sure I can find a good enough job to move out with just a 2 year degree.

  3. Tell my mother. Hope she gives me another chance. But then what? What is my plan then? No idea. Plus, I am unsure I would even get another chance (or if I deserve one). I mean, would you give me one? I don't think I would.

  4. Continue working my dead end job. Eventually, my mother will figure out I failed, maybe she'll give me another chance, maybe not, eventually I get kicked out. (doom scenario)

Am I missing any options? What should I do? How do I fix this extreme lack of discipline? How do I fix this extreme laziness? Have you, or anyone you know, fixed this extreme lack of discipline? How?

If it matters, for context I live in the New York metropolitan area. Also, "kicked out" in this context doesn't mean me being homeless. I'm not 100% sure, but it probably means me either living with my dad, or my brother. However, if I don't solve my issues, they would probably kick me out eventually as well, and after that, who knows.

Hi, time travelling me! Long time no see, 17 years I think?

So yeah, I was in the same situation, almost exactly. Well, not the psychiatry and therapy and medication; I had self-diagnosed myself with depression instead. I lived with my mother, flunked out of college twice (through not showing up), worked a minimum wage job. I was very afraid to tell my mother when I flunked out the second time. I don't know exactly why, but I'm pretty sure it's not ADHD. I just don't learn well in a classroom environment. It bores me, to litteral sleep. I learn almost exclusively through exploration and experimentation. I can certainly concentrate for long period of times when I'm learning that way.

So I went with your option 2 (except for the therapy, psychiatry and medication). Told my mother. Obviously she was angry and worried that there would be no doors open to me without a degree. I went searching for a job with what I had (high school diploma and unfinished college degrees). It took me a week. I managed to impress a recruiter in a test enough that she recommended me for a job as helpdesk for a major law firm. I was self-taught IT tech (tech runs in the family) and my first unfinished degree was in desktop publishing, which had trained me to use Microsoft Office to a very high level of proficiency. Turns out not too many people have the skillset to support legal secretaries in their work. A year later I moved out of my mother's place. My career was built from that job and the contacts I made there, I've never been without work since then. I'm now working for a consulting firm, selling my services to clients who need a senior sysadmin.

Anyway, I can't say for sure things will work out the same for you. Maybe I was lucky to be at the right place at the right time with the right skillset. I can't even say that not having a college degree made anything more difficult, I guess I'm probably never going to be considered for a job in government or education, but outside of that, it just isn't that much of a factor in IT once you have experience. But I guess what I can say is that as long as you have marketable skills, and can find a way to bypass HR filters (networking, going through recruiters, pitching yourself directly to the people you would be working under), college is not mandatory for a succesful professional life.

Not as extreme as you, but similar deal in terms of being present and focused on school. I got a degree - but with a crappy GPA doing as little as possible. I relied on friends to help me pass classes extensively, and had deep anxiety about how much more discipline they all had. I was surrounded by hardworking people who put up with me because they liked me, but that I was a drag on. To be totally honest, I'm now in a very good spot in terms of success and responsibility, ~10 years later.

The key for me, which may be for you, is work. There are many problems with school, but succinctly: I find the idea of paying for the privilege of suffering (waking up early, hearing someone drone on about simple concepts, and doing work that has literally zero value beyond learning) to be sickening.

Even your minimum wage job, which is as meaningless as a job can be, matters to your teammates, manager, and customers at some level.

If you're in the US, get your fucking driver's license. Cmon.

After that, find another job that is preferably higher paying and potentially interesting to you.

  • Working at a video game arcade or board game shop
  • Working at a restaurant making food you respect with high standards
  • Working at the front desk of an interesting or lucrative business
  • Working in a more rural area at a factory, where you may make more money and get to see firsthand where low-effort living happens

One more bit of tough love: Your mom isn't going to fix this. You're causing her suffering even at this point. If she gives you another chance, I think you're still in the position where you'll take advantage of her to continue to fail. You live in a time and, presumably, a 1st world country in which it is impossible for you to starve to death or truly suffer in any way. I think you have to throw yourself in the water before you'll swim.

I think in some cases, she’s somewhat a hinderance. Not that it isn’t nice to have your nest to return to, but that’s a catch 22. For some people, the fact that you can afford to fail means that you don’t take things seriously enough. If not working means possibly sleeping in the car because you can’t pay rent, you’ll find the muscles to work full time. If failing out of college means poverty, class becomes much more interesting. I would actually suggest getting your own apartment or split Trent somewhere so that if you’re not working or doing the minimum it will be a risk to you.

I’d also recommend that if you’re not making it to class, maybe try either trade school or community college. If you’re doing community college, you can generally pay your way. That way the fact that you spent $400 a course might motivate you a bit more.

You fix a lack of discipline by being disciplined.

For an extreme solution, you’re well below the cutoff age for any military branch.

Have you tried going to work early every day? It won’t help you at work but it will help you. Have you tried getting up when the alarm goes off and staying up? Have you tried setting your meals ahead of time and sticking to it, come what may, no substituting with a snack?

On your day off, draw up a list of tasks(I’m guessing some chores) and actually do them. None of whatever it is you would usually do(video games?) until they’re done.

Practice makes perfect. In small things- ordinary life- as much as in specific skills.

Start with simple goals. ‘I’m going to be five minutes early for work every day this week’ then bigger ones ‘I’m going to go to bed at 9:30 and be up by 6’ and you’re building discipline.

So, I was in a pretty similar position to you, though my procrastination and absenteeism started in middle school and never really cleared up. My last year of high school I was going to class less than once a week to hand in assignments or write tests and spending the rest of my time at home reading, programming, or playing video games. The school tolerated this because I got an exemption from a psychiatrist (who I was forced to start seeing after I said, basically, "If I have to waste another fucking year of my life in that place I'm going to end up killing myself," to my mother when explaining why I kept skipping class.)

The psychiatrist diagnosed me with "social anxiety" which I didn't agree with at the time, and still don't, but I played along because it at least meant being able to graduate on time.

I moved out at 18 to go to college. Predictably, it did not go very well. While the coursework was trivial (freshman CS) the profs were hardasses about attendance, so I dropped out after two semesters. Moved back in with my mom to her great disappointment and did odd jobs to make my student loan payments and help with rent. (Picking apples in autumn and a part-time gig at the butcher's shop she worked at for the rest of the year, mostly. I didn't have trouble with showing up to these jobs for some reason.)

If discipline (conscientiousness?) is a Real Thing then I'd wager I'm <1st percentile. Whatever standard script typically engenders "work ethic" in people was completely ineffective on me; the only thing that's motivated me to do things I actively don't want to do is an overwhelming sense of panic and imminent fear of disaster. This is a pretty severe character flaw, there's no sugar-coating it, and I haven't been able to overcome it except in brief spurts. I've tried a friend's Vyvanse prescription: it seemed to make it easier to initiate annoying tasks, but I wasn't in school or working full-time, so I have no idea if it would've been effective in those scenarios, and it may have been placebo to begin with.

I'm 29 now, and unfortunately I never found a satisfactory solution to this problem; I gave up on the "standard" normie wageslave life a long time ago. Post-COVID, online courses and remote work might be a viable means to cope with the issue -- when I was in college, the idea of an online class being remotely equivalent to a "real" one was pure fantasy. You can, apparently, even get student loans for them now. I found my own personal success (such as it is) in other ways: I made a decent chunk of money in crypto early on (ironically using some of the student loan money which I'm still making the minimum payments on -- the interest rate is so low, it's the only Rational(tm) choice) and multiplied it with some Wallstreetbets-tier investments. The COVID years were particularly kind, and Nvidia secured the bag, so to speak. This was enough to live independently and comfortably (though not lavishly) for the foreseeable future.

This came out as more of a blackpilling post then I expected; I don't know that I have any advice per se, as "get lucky with crypto 8+ years ago" is not exactly actionable. That said, if you aren't able to solve the root of your issue (as I wasn't) it's worth considering more unconventional coping methods, e.g., finding some way to make enough money to achieve your goal of living independently. You are clearly very literate, fluent in English, intelligent, and an American citizen: this combination alone puts you ahead of a lot of people, and there has never been a better time to make a living on the internet. If your morals are at all flexible and you have a bit of risk tolerance (and if the alternative is "getting kicked out and eventually living on the streets", well...) there are many roads available.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but (personally) the NEET life is great, if you can find a way to make it happen.

I appreciate the post regardless. This is useful info since you usually hear stories of how people get better and fix everything. I generally have a low risk tolerance (I'm the type to tell my friends or relatives to just invest in the S&P instead of random crypto or to buy the S&P instead of real estate and renting it out), but it makes sense that I'd need to change that as the situation gets more desperate. I will keep this in the back of my mind as I try other strategies.

I wish I YOLO’d my student loans for online university (ASU) into crypto / apehood.

All I got was a shitty Masters (and Bachelors) and a continued career in retail.

Picking apples in autumn and a part-time gig at the butcher's shop she worked at for the rest of the year, mostly. I didn't have trouble with showing up to these jobs for some reason.

It sounds like you don't really need advice anymore, and I never had as bad of a problem as you or OP did, but there are outdoor manual labor jobs that pay better and have more of a pathway to retirement than those two. (I guess butchering isn't outdoors, which opens up even more opportunities.). May be worth exploring--not everyone has to be a programmer, and tasks involving trees are supposedly going to be difficult to automate.

I can't give you any life advice, but it might be worth thinking about leveling up your diet and fitness. It sounds like you have a lot of time to work out. Why not start a serious lifting habit?

While this doesn't really fix anything, it will eventually give you a lot more energy and self-esteem that will make it easier to tackle other problems. There's good evidence that exercise, especially weightlifting, is more effective than therapy. Ditch the therapy and meds, and apply barbell.

I don't envy your situation, but I'd kill to be 25 again and have the energy and muscle-building ability of a 25 year old.

Will second this! It's hard to do without discipline but even starting small could majorly help out.

One mental trick that's worked for me:

Tell yourself constantly that you'll procrastinate later. Make a deal with yourself. "If I do X, then I get to do Y later". If you don't do X, then you don't get Y.

This is a mental trick that helped me a fair bit; I also had trouble going to class. It wasn't the class I minded, it was the whole process, especially if the class was far or I needed to do significant prep work before class. Eventually I sort of turned it into a whole process where I'd get up early on the day I had to go to class, get a long shower, enjoy the walk, go to campus early and have a long, leisurely meal and coffee before class actually started and then finish it. If I didn't go to class, I didn't get to go through that whole process.

Similarly, childish "no movie tonight because I didn't finish this paper first" works. I find with this kind of bargaining that I do with myself, I end up enjoying the rewards more because I worked to balance them in my mind.

Also, look at your lifestyle and see what small habits you can build up to help you cultivate a sense of ownership and responsibility. Judging from your post there's a bunch of stuff you don't feel responsible for, both in your own life and that of others, and so naturally you are letting it slack. It doesn't have to be anything massive, like the health and wellbeing of your family members, but start small, like paying the bills and utilities for the house (mostly possible on even a minimum wage salary in 2024). Those responsibilities become guiding lights if used properly - you will know, always, that if you don't pay the power bill you will have no electricity, so you will make damn sure you pay it.

I can't speak for medication and therapy, In my own experience I found therapy mostly expensive waste, but I know others who've been on medication and they've said it helped.

Similarly, childish "no movie tonight because I didn't finish this paper first" works. I find with this kind of bargaining that I do with myself, I end up enjoying the rewards more because I worked to balance them in my mind.

I've tried similar things to this, but I either do something else I want to do that isn't part of the rule, literally forget my own rule and break it by mistake, or just break my own rule intentionally (and then feel really bad about it afterwards)

look at your lifestyle and see what small habits you can build up to help you cultivate a sense of ownership and responsibility. Judging from your post there's a bunch of stuff you don't feel responsible for, both in your own life and that of others, and so naturally you are letting it slack.

This is interesting. Maybe it can explain why I manage to go to work but not go to class? When I don't go to work, it's just a few people that work per shift, so I know it would be a huge hassle for the manager to call someone in, or if no one can come in, everyone else would just have to work harder to cover for me being gone. So, I feel responsible for all the extra work I'm putting on them. However, when I miss class, especially big lectures, I am able to slip through the cracks. No one really cares one way or the other if I show up or not. This also might explain why with some classes, it takes longer for me to stop going. With those classes, I usually made acquaintances with someone in the class, or I participated in class with the professor a lot in a small, discussion type class. A lot of those classes I still end up not showing up to eventually, but some of them I managed to actually pass. I need to think about how this fits other situations in my life

I have to say though, if this is correct, the solution is scary to me because it is basically "be more intertwined and interdependent with other people" which seems opposite to my goal of independence.

The latter is a good point, but nobody is really truly independent in the modern age. You use a product built off the back of hundreds of people and over a dozen different suppliers with their own unique supply chains to access the internet.

Instead of obsessing over how reliant you are on others, try becoming someone others are dependent on. Your whole mindset changes once you realize you've become that someone. I can't recommend climbing that tree too high, as it's awful for stress, but great for many things, not least of which is money.

How confident are you that you have a problem with "discipline" as opposed to a problem with "energy"?

To clarify, I'd say the classic hyperactive ADHD person has a primary problem with discipline, not with energy. They can maintain a high level of activity, but it's poorly directed toward their professed goals. In contrast, somebody who's, say, chronically severely sleep deprived may incidentally have a problem with discipline, but primarily has a problem with energy -- there's not enough energy available to do what's needed to stay on top of their responsibilities, and redirecting it more strategically won't fix the problems.

Are you somebody who chronically doesn't do things you need to do, or are you somebody who just chronically doesn't do things, full stop? Where does the day go? I'd say if it tends to go to "the lowest-effort available alternative at any given moment", you may have a problem with energy, rather than discipline. This may have a variety of potential causes, including physical unwellness.

I'm having a hard time differentiating between the two. When I read

Are you somebody who chronically doesn't do things you need to do, or are you somebody who just chronically doesn't do things, full stop?

I was thinking I was the former, but then reading

if it tends to go to "the lowest-effort available alternative at any given moment", you may have a problem with energy, rather than discipline

has me second guessing myself and now I think it's the latter. I think "lowest-effort available alternative" is what's really confusing me. I'm guessing scrolling social media is a "lowest-effort available alternative", but is playing a video game that? Maybe it depends on the game? Maybe going back to that "comfort game" counts, but playing a new game doesn't? Does going to a movie theater or playing a tcg count? I'm guessing that one doesn't as low effort.

When I'm not working, I'm usually on the computer where I browse social media or play video games. If I'm really into a game, I will play that a lot, otherwise I'm usually on social media, mostly youtube. I am the type who gets super into things, so if I'm super into a game, I will play it a ton, research a ton about it, think about it a lot, etc. Similarly, if I find a nice youtube video or other social media post, I will go through all the creator's stuff to find more, or I will find more content on that topic. Around once a week or two, I will go out and do something. Usually it's to play a TCG, sometimes a movie, sometimes other things, and that's not including going to the therapist/psychiatrist.

So I'm thinking of "discipline" as a broader and longer term thing that's about persisting at overcoming obstacles in a structured and intentional way over time. This persistence takes, as one of its prereqs, at least the occasional availability of "energy", the immediate capacity to exert effort to overcome obstacles here and now.

It takes discipline (for many people) to keep a clean house day in and day out. It takes energy to get up right now and wash the dishes. If you rarely or never have the energy to get up and wash the dishes, you're missing one of the key parts of the discipline of keeping a clean house.

But it also takes energy to do things that aren't necessarily part of any pattern of discipline -- it takes energy to organize friends for an outing, or to ride your bike to the bodega, or to refine a tactic in a competitive videogame.

Set aside whether you're willing or able to pursue a sustained program of efforts for the sake of delayed or diffuse rewards -- the realm of discipline. In the more basic sense of energy, do you feel like you have the inclination to exert moderate immediate efforts for moderate near term rewards? Or do you consider exerting such efforts, but think "that sounds like too much work" and accept known low rewards for the sake of lowering effort?

Like being on time -- you're preparing to leave for work, and you get the moderate reward of getting there on time if you leave now instead of leaving in 10 minute. This isn't necessarily a matter of discipline and long term thinking -- this is "right now, is it too much effort to get up and leave for the sake of being less stressed out 10 minutes from now?"

Potentially it's a matter of discipline if there's a lot of earlier preparation that has to go into being ready to leave on time. But if it's just "I'm going to watch YouTube for another 10 minutes at the cost of being late", that seems like a different problem. What's it feel like to you?

Or say at your shitty min wage job you were actually paid daily for performance in some legible way, so that if you were able to do "50% more work" in your next shift than you normally do, by some measurable outcomes, you'd take home 50% more money at the end of that day. Does that opportunity sound appealing or aversive?

Okay, this is making much more sense. I definitely have the energy, but not the discipline. I will sometimes cook even when I can order food, but never consistently. I will sometimes randomly clean my room, but never consistently. I will spend hours troubleshooting a game so I can pirate it or make the mods work, and then not even play it afterwords (does anyone else do this? I know "spend hours modding skyrim and then play for 30 minutes and quit" is a thing, but I haven't heard anything similar about trying to get a pirated game to work). I also do walk to the corner store when I want a specific drink instead of just grabbing what's in my fridge and I do spend time reviewing and thinking about my play in competitive video games. So, I think I do have the energy, but not the discipline.

That's good! Developing discipline is much more tractable if you have, in principle, the energy to do the shit you need to do!

Not that it's trivial, but at least it does sound like you're asking the right question.

Just follow your enjoyment. figure out what you love doing more than anything and explore that. Work a crappy job until you can figure out how to monetize what you love.

Sounds like you don't have a clear goal or reason for getting a degree other than that it's vaguely something you feel expected to do.

I want a degree so that I can get a job that pays well enough to let me live by myself and be independent. I do not want to be dependent on my mother my whole life.

I don't feel like I have any meaningful way to give input on changing motivations, but this part of things seems like a good area for focus. You don't need a degree to live your life and be independent. For many goals, a degree can be instrumentally useful, but if the core goal is really just earning a respectable living, you don't need one. You need to pick a specific skill, develop it, and show up and do it in a tolerably reliable fashion. Which skill? Whatever. Learn to do auto body, wait tables, drive a forklift, put shingles on... whatever. The specifics do matter to how much money and opportunity you'll have, but the point is that you'll make a respectable living and be a respectable man if you just pick something and do it well. You don't need a bullshit political science degree to make a buck sanding bumpers down for painting.

You are right I don't need one, but the lifetime earnings premium you get from a college degree is still very high despite the recent "college is a waste of money" trend. The lifetime earnings premium from a degree is still there even if you include super expensive for profit private colleges and stereotypical no money humanities degrees. If you exclude those, the numbers favor a degree even more.

A college degree is a great investment, but if you’re the person you describe yourself as it may not pay off for you.

To be precise, a degree is a good investment because it signals the discipline you don't have (alongside a mid-tier or better IQ), allowing you to get certain types of entry-level jobs which require it.

If you have the discipline problem you say you do, then getting a generic degree will cost you more than most (that is necessary for the signal to be credible) and benefit you less (because you will suck at graduate jobs and be miserable until you are fired).

If you are doing a typical blue-collar job (solo trades jobs are different obviously), you are checking in with the boss multiple times a day. If you are doing a graduate professional job, you are checking in with the boss 2-3 times a week. (Scrum requires a daily check-in, but is only acceptable to programmers who see themselves as white-collar professionals because the daily Scrum call is explicitly not run by a manager. When the daily Scrum call is used as a tool for beating up slow developers, the Scrum team stops producing code and starts producing resumes). You can be productive with much less discipline if you are working closely with your boss.

If you are able to hack physically tough blue-collar jobs like construction, then your personal graduate wage premium is much smaller than it is for the average college attendee, who is a woman.

the lifetime earnings premium you get from a college degree is still very high

Only for certain, difficult degrees.

As others have noted - the premium is worthless if you don't finish. And you're already in the hole from previous failures and delaying the start of recognizing that premium. Even if your family or loans paid for it. Just do the algebra on it.

I say this not to flagellate you but to reinforce: A degree is not a panacea, and just straight up isn't necessary for independence almost anywhere.

Is it nice? Sure, as an owner of one, I'd say so. Would I be fine and happy without one (but with a work ethic)? Absolutely.

You can always go back and get one after you're independent. I can't imagine how great college would have been if I knew how to fuckin' do it better.

It doesn't matter how big the earnings premium is if you're not gonna do it.

Were you working on a useful degree?

There are super successful individuals that help pull up the median. If you land in the bottom quintile of the distribution the value is less certain.

Have you considered a trade? You'd be developing the relationships and interdependence that may help you with motivation to improve your attendance.

Did you take the ASVAB? Have you talked to a recruiter, perhaps the military would provide the structure you need.

The military seems promising, but apparently it is huge pain to join with an ADHD diagnosis from what I just googled. (I saw "medical evaluation" as part of the recruitment process after googling what the ASVAB was and then wondered how ADHD would apply). That would've been nice to know prior to going to a psychiatrist.

I have considered trades as well, but I'm unsure if the physical health problems are worth it. I suppose that just might be the best option left out of a bad group.

Ok, tradesman here- you can succeed in a trade if you can’t sit still enough or care about boring useless arbitrary crap enough to do well in school. You cannot succeed in a trade if you lack the good discipline and willingness to work to do well in school(you’re on the motte so I’m assuming you’re smart enough).

I leave up to you to determine which category you’re in. By all means, try to get an electrical apprenticeship if you think you’re just ADHD(but do be aware you’re probably A) gonna get drug tested and B) going to have to take a math class, regardless of whether you already know it, to move up). But if you have issues with discipline, call an army recruiter if you can’t fix them.

I'm unsure if the physical health problems are worth it

Tradesmen with severe physical health problems tend to be alcoholics who smoke heavily and eat fast food multiple times a day while not sleeping very much. As a rule, if you don’t have preexisting physical health problems and make it through your first year or two(almost all tradesmen have to start on a construction site) then just take care of your body and the work won’t be too tough on it.

As a rule, if you don’t have preexisting physical health problems and make it through your first year or two(almost all tradesmen have to start on a construction site) then just take care of your body and the work won’t be too tough on it.

Just to supplement this. My dad has worked in a quite physical trade for 40 years now. (He's a glazier.) He has no particular ailments associated with it - he's a good weight, hale and healthy, still very physically capable. He's never been a overeater or a drinker, and I think getting lots of exercise each day has kept his level high. I'll be lucky to be as healthy as he is when I'm in my 60s.

The one problem he has is that he's had multiple melanomas removed, because he did not wear sunscreen at any point in all that time lol. He knows better, he doesn't deny it, but he still doesn't put it on.

More comments

You could go talk to a recruiter about your diagnosis and see what they say. You need to do more things in general and talking to a recruiter is an easy goal to set and accomplish.

Trades can damage your health but it's not a given. Sitting in an office all day does it's own sort of damage.

Maybe spending some time every day thinking about your goal in a positive sense (focus on what's good about it) might help motivate you?

Does anyone else feel weirded out by their past? I recently opened my older Instagram account and all the people that I was super close with at one point just drifted apart, I spoke with this girl who once told me how she wanted kids with adhd, her way of flirting with me and I lectured her for 20 minutes about why that is bad, she does not remember anything about me, hell my high school best friend who I would talk to for hours after we would get back home is now this software dev in the US who by the looks of it still sucks at dating.

All the guys I hung out with morphed into generic stereotypes in many ways, happy but just very bland. All the girls I wanted to talk to at the time just to feel good about myself dont seem that attractive anymore.

The worst experience was opening up my half a decade old accounts feed and scrolling through it super fast and getting a feeling of dissociation from it. Like are these photos even real, does anyone even care, why bother. I now remember why I nuked it in the first place. Also I am still sad but 19 year old me would not have seen 24 year old me as a failure, I have not done as much as I should have but still pretty nuts to see how different the world I frankly I was.

At your age, your "past" is, for someone like me, a year or two ago. Give it all time.

True, time moves by very fast, if you take action, the changes can be quite staggering. It seems slow but in days, it adds up.

Not very often, only when I actually think about it. Honestly, I think 19-year-old me would kind of think current me kicks ass. On the flip side though, I am ashamed of the way I treated women that I cared about when I was young. I'm glad I'm not that man anymore, but I can't imagine that they should know or care about that.

My closest friends, at least just the very closest ones, are great guys though and I love when I go home and see them. If anything, I'd say that they turned out better than any of us could have expected and fills me with warmth to consider.

I still wasted most of my time, I still can redeem myself so there's that.

I have zero shame with how I treat women now. My past self would text them from a distance thinking that they were angelic creatures, believed in the Madonna/whore complex.

For most of my life, I always had these debilitating one sided crushes on girls, I left Instagram because of one. I met way better looking girls and can never go back to thinking that way. It's fun to meet a girl, a complete stranger and vibe with her, have a point where both of us find each other attractive and go back home or maybe not since I didn't do that with most girls.

Most of this was stuff I only saw in movies, recreating way better versions of it was very fun. I'm not saying these girls were like model tier but some were.

My closest friends are not like me, they're bland career people now and frankly I can't talk to them without getting some of my startup stuff fixed, but in ways I'm happy they found stability.

All the guys I hung out with morphed into generic stereotypes in many ways, happy but just very bland.

That's what people generally use Instagram for, to project an image of bland, legible, public happiness. Who knows what they're like behind the veil.

Not unique people like you guys. I knew that back in high school too, I'm not judging them on it, I'm just somewhat happy that I got to do a whole bunch of stuff and in ways still preserve what I think is unique and natural to me instead.

Does anyone else feel weirded out by their past?

Yes, absolutely. I spend more time than is healthy thinking, "what if..."

All the guys I hung out with morphed into generic stereotypes in many ways, happy but just very bland. All the girls I wanted to talk to at the time just to feel good about myself dont seem that attractive anymore.

My first thought reading this is that almost everybody looks like a generic stereotype when looked at from a distance. For the girls, maybe it was status that made you attracted. So, once you left that particular status hierarchy, the attraction left as well. (I am way less confident in the status idea than the stereotype idea)

I never had access, girls here aren't pretty. I spoke to probably close to 500 girls when I was out in a month's time or something. I had girls mentally shut out guys who were way more jacked and better looking and richer than me, ones good with girls and the same guys come up to me and tell me that I'm fucking awesome. This is the kinda stuff 19 year old me only saw in movies.

I'm very fortunate in many ways. It's not just status, I never had access. The nervous guy who would text those mediocre looking girls nervously is gone now, completely.

This week, in review:

High: had a first date that I think I'm actually more excited about than Ms. Definitely, and there will certainly be a second. Not quite as much in common, but still a lot, still brilliant and attractive, and just...better vibes. More stable and peaceful.

Low: buried the dog.

Low: buried the dog.

Sorry man. We know they won't be with us long enough, but it's still rough.

I'd really love to improve my memory, but the popular approach to this sort of baffles me. Memorizers construct large memory palaces and winding trails to recall specific, precise bits of information, like numbers or the words of a speech down to the letter, and this is synonymous with memory improvement. But is this not just trivial recall that could be handled easily by a computer, or a scrap of paper? Consulting my internal memory palace is no different from consulting a library. And it's obviously additional. When we talk about memory, we really mean that natural faculty through which things float into our mind as they appear relevant, the source of all creativity. This faculty of memory can be improved through exercise and health and frequent use, and reduced through idleness and so on.

...But is that it? This memory pretty much determines your intellectual life, it determines whether a book will benefit you or be meaningless. Memory is everything. So where are the great writers and studies showing how to optimize this function? Surely it's not just "eat vegetables, do cardio, sleep well", right?

I've made it a habit to put everything worth memorizing into an Anki card on my phone. Names of acquaintances I have met, dates of historical events I am interested in, vocabulary, formulas and constants that I use in my line of work or hobbies, phone numbers, just to name a few common ones. Spaced repetition is the only method that has worked for me. Memorizing the major system also helps for memorizing numbers. I review the cards once a day on my phone, it takes me less than 5 minutes.

Regarding the distinction you make between improving deliberate information recall and improving spontaneous/sublime association: John Crowley's fantasy novel Little, Big has a character who uses a memory palace (aka. the method of loci) not just to commit facts to memory, but also to do detective work in the sense of joining the dots together. The palace is a place for reflection and discovery. At one point her attention is drawn to a room of the palace by a cowbell ringing in it, so the palace formalizes and increases awareness of the process of recognizing the relevance of a memory. Another character uses his palace (by physically walking around the real analogue of the imagined place) to perfectly preserve emotionally significant experiential memories.
This is a fictional portrayal which verges on astral projection sometimes. I have no idea to what extent it's grounded in reality, or even to what extent the author thought it was, and I haven't tried to emulate it. I've read somewhere that the method of loci was developed by ancient rhetors to memorize speeches, which sounds more like what you were complaining about.

I agree with lagrangian that rote memorization doesn't preclude forming associations. Organizing information in preparation for rote memorization can require decisions about what associations to make: if you want to memorize the periodic table, do you memorize periods or groups at a time, or mappings between atomic numbers and elements, or mappings from a given element to its immediate neighbours? In making this decision you are effectively selecting triggers of relevance and the information that should float into your mind in response to them.

Reminded of the story about … was it Leonardo? … who said that he wrote everything down because once he wrote it down he would remember it and never need the piece of paper again.

(Aware of the irony that I have half remembered a story about memory.)

+1 to spaced repetition.

The other technique I will add, which I think underlies memory palaces, is...let's call it "deep engagement." Rather than just trying to remember rotely, deeply engage with the knowledge by connecting it to other knowledge. You've now added multiple recall points to your brain for the single fact, and as long as any of them are intact, you can get the fact.

In the case of memory palaces (which I find overhyped and not personally useful), that knowledge is a location in the memory palace. E.g. if yours is Pokemon, and you are trying to remember a grocery list, maybe you pictured Pikachu eating a watermelon. The element of the memory palace itself (Pikachu) is by design easy to remember. The visual of Pikachu eating a watermelon connects to enough other things (my memories of eating watermelon, a chuckle at the visual there, etc) to provide redundant encoding of "watermelon."

In the case of learning physics, you can:

  1. (no deep engagement) cram equations in your brain, regurgitate them at the top of a test, then reference them, OR
  2. (deep engagement) derive them, graph them, do experiments to measure them, think about their asymptotics, etc

In the case of politics, you can:

  1. (no deep engagement) memorize the latest fact about the advancing troops in Ukraine
  2. (deep engagement) think about why that movement was made, what might happen next, the experience of the soldiers during it

But is this not just trivial recall that could be handled easily by a computer, or a scrap of paper?

So, no, it isn't - it's redundant encoding that gives you more threads by which to remember. In CS terms, I no longer have to linearly loop through my list-o-facts; instead, I map quickly to the needed fact via any of a number of hashes (connections).

Rather than just trying to remember rotely, deeply engage with the knowledge by connecting it to other knowledge. You've now added multiple recall points to your brain for the single fact, and as long as any of them are intact, you can get the fact.

You remind me of this article

https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2007/03/25/how-to-ace-your-finals-without-studying/

Back in high school, I was on the "academic bowl" team (it's academic jeopardy) and our team captain was some dude with glasses from Myanmar. His skill at the game was truly astonishing, and when I asked him how he learned, he said he spent hours reading wikipedia each night. Unsurprisingly, I tried a few variations on this and none of them bore fruit. But as @self_made_human mentions, there's a degree to which this memory faculty feels sort of natural, like we're each given the capacity we need for our interests. If you find yourself going on Wikipedia binges, making deep connections, reading tons of books and forgetting them shortly after, most probably it's a defect in your natural memory; you should be remembering everything you have interest in. Otherwise it's likely a disease.

So, no, it isn't - it's redundant encoding that gives you more threads by which to remember. In CS terms, I no longer have to linearly loop through my list-o-facts; instead, I map quickly to the needed fact via any of a number of hashes (connections).

This is a good analogy. We don't often talk about how inefficient the written word usually is.

Write it down , periodically refer to it by glancing at it and mentally reciting it, at which point it should be easy to commit it to memory. Look for patterns in numbers or words.

The only reliable/efficient way of memorizing large amounts of information I'm aware of is spaced repetition. I'm too lazy to make Anki cards, but I do try and apply the practice to reviewing the copious amounts of notes I need to memorize, and it does work.

On the nootropic side, ashwagandha is more or less robustly shown (going off last time I read up on it) to have mild benefits for memory. There's not really much you can do to improve it above your usual baseline unless you're a dementia patient needing memory enhancers really.

"Great writers" such as Gwern or Scott both do their best to note down things, and are also blessed with great memory by default, which strongly correlates to intelligence anyway.

I have been taking time off to just feel like myself again, my co-founder asked me to do so since he could see my mental health worsening. Still, I am trying to read books, join a gym and see the physio. I might be making a mountain out of a molehill.

I appreciate the advice I got last week. My co-founder has been telling me to get concerta here and it takes too damn long. I met the psychiatrist second time today, she got me evaluated by the psychologist in her office, the psychologist also spoke with my parents and I have been called again in a week. I hate sending these sorta updates to my co-founder as it makes me look lazy and lethargic. I dont want to switch psychiatrists over and over again as that takes time plus most psychiatrists wanted nothing to do with ADHD stuff so sent me to this one.

My parents tried to cheer me up while I was coming back from the psychiatrists due to me being sad because of the delays, and I found that quite wholesome. My relationship with them is troubled, yet they are still my parents. 24-25 is too old to depend on your parents. I do hope that my co-founder's e-commerce gig helps me get a salary of some sort. That will be a good day when I get my first paycheck. He runs an e-commerce gig, too, so I can make money with him there.

I still feel like shit but life can be far far worse. I see people with genuinely life-altering issues in the psychiatrist's office. Good chance I have severe clinical depression too. I routinely see poor people with very bad cases of autism or down syndrome and whatnot. My mental issues have caused me problems, very real painful one though I can not imagine trading lives with the people who visit the psychiatrist's office. As long as I can get concerta and work I should be fine.

I saw some movies recently, the Oslo trilogy among them standing out. Oslo, 31 August, is a painful movie that I highly recommend; it hits way too close to home. I won't be watching any more movies for now, but I will start posting reviews of books I read and movies I watch on a substack under this name. Besides that I don't have much to add though by next week i do wish to implement some basic routine in my life like fixed bedtime, working out, reading instead of screens and meditating. As silly as it sounds, i will try to implement this stuff one at a time.

/u/Pasha made a very good point last week

I am very familiar with the backpacker/digital nomad paradise parts of 3rd world. They are often filled to the brim with 1st world losers/hustlers who are trying to do some sort of passport/living costs arbitrage (or worse). Most of these people fail but have a good time in the meanwhile. You should not try to imitate these people with your Indian passport and lack of backup funds. On the contrary, you have much better prospects as a young ambitious guy if you do the opposite move and move towards concentrations of economic activity instead of away from it.

This is spot on, most are not just losers financially but dating wise too, passport bros.

My main aim now is to get a source of income going (e commerce stuff) and get job ready. If I can help build a product from scratch that is deployed, i can increase my chances of landing remote jobs and then slowly work from there and still try to start my own startup. One step at a time.

Another person asked me why I post here. I post mostly because I have no one to talk to back home. Most people I know wanted different things in life, after a while it became harder for me to talk to them. People here cannot think beyond the small city, they cannot think of a world beyond India sure there are some really smart folks who have similar beliefs as me, they are not be found here since they left, like I would leave the moment I can. Posting here is a way for me to vent out stuff. I am not ready to give up on myself yet. I hope by next weeks update, I will get some meds.

I'm trying to understand PDCAAS/DIAAS protein quality numbers. Many sources give DIAAS score for potato protein higher than its PDCAAS and higher than some animal proteins. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fsn3.1809

in general, how important are these scores?

If you're eating a variety of food groups, don't fixate on protein quality scores. Deficiencies in one food group are made up for by another.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=h5QG3_cln3U&t=4845

i suspect this advice is for people where 'variety' means that protein needs are exceeded by animal protein alone, maybe even by two-fold or more. a lot of plant foods are deficient in lysine, so it can occur so 5 foods in a meal are all deficient.

Potato has low amount of protein, maybe it's better to eat food that is higher in protein even if its score is slightly lower?

i suspect this advice is for people where 'variety' means that protein needs are exceeded by animal protein alone

I suspect you did not watch even fifteen seconds of the clip I posted, because this is the very first thing discussed.

a lot of plant foods are deficient in lysine, so it can occur so 5 foods in a meal are all deficient.

Unlikely, unless you never eat legumes (see advice above about eating a variety of food groups).

I did

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats