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PaperclipPerfector  21d ago (text post)   1299 thread views

Transnational Thursday for August 29, 2024

Transnational Thursday is a thread for people to discuss international news, foreign policy or international relations history. Feel free as well to drop in with coverage of countries you’re interested in, talk about ongoing dynamics like the wars in Israel or Ukraine, or even just whatever you’re reading.

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A lot of people here at The Motte seem to be pro russian, why?

I’m from there, haven’t been back for thirty years, and retain some nostalgia for it. Mostly want the mobiks to come back in one piece, on both sides.

Ironically, if my dad had gained custody when I was little, I’d have grown up in Kharkov and possibly died on the front as a Ukrainian mobik by now. Or I might have bailed back to Russia in ‘14, depending on the amount of roots put down by then.

Life is strange.

To be clear I have great love for (western)Ukraine, on the basis of ethnoreligious prejudices. But I also want the war to end asap, to minimize human suffering, and it seems that a Russian victory is the fastest way there.

Because Russian society does not normalize ethnomasochism.

I encourage you to google-translate Russian rhetoric aimed at their own people.

The one white Christian country where the state sanctions native ethnic supremacism and supports traditional religion is... Ukraine, currently being invaded by Russia.

From a white ethnonationalist perspective, any European expression of ethnonationalist sentiment is immediately suspect if the Washingtonian globohomo empire / GAE not only permits it to exist but actively encourages and bankrolls it as a local enforcer of its overseas aspirations. It's doubly suspect if it's justified by claims of ethnogenesis that have no basis in reality, unlike those of Polish, Baltic and Finnish nationalists, to be fair to them.

Western Ukraine(and the astroturfed "Ukrainian" identity is mostly Galician supremacy) was not, historically, part of Russia, it was part of Poland(well technically Austria for much of the period, but you get the point). Claiming there to be no real distinction from Russia is simply dumb; the closest culture is a western Slavic one.

Now anti-Americanism as a basis for supporting Russia at least makes sense, but 'Ukraine isn't really based' doesn't.

Correct. Galicia is certainly distinctive. Preserving Galician identity makes complete sense there. But the Crimea, the Donbass, Novorossiya are not Galicia.

Neither is the Chechen Republic Russia, yet if you say that in public in Russia you'll be charged with advocating for secession. Borders are even more fake than ethnicities. And certainly, the only reason the Russian government has started to trump up the "historical Russian cities" bullshit in the past few years is the geopolitical convenience.

False equivalence. Galicia was never a nation, not even a sovereign entity as far as I know, and probably shouldn't be one either (but that's another matter). You can say Chechnya was never a part of Muscovy, and that'd be correct.

Muscovy didn't spawn from the ether as an ethnic atom, either. The rules are made up and the points do not matter. What matters is that some countries take a bloody war to convince being/remaining a part of another country and some don't. Out of pure personal pragmatism, I consider only the latter arrangements legitimate.

Ethnicity is a meme. There is never any essential, objective "basis in reality". In that regard, if the Ukrainian nationalists can meme it like the Finns did, they they have it.

Unlike the Ukrainians, unfortunately (for this point of view, that is) the Finns aren't Slavs, aren't Orthodox Christians and have their own peculiar language.

And?

You're regurgutating Russian justifications for their very mundane geopolitical ambitions, not any real obstacles that would prevent ethnogenesis. Humans are evolved to break themselves apart into groups much smaller than a modern nation-state.

And?

And that means that Finns are markedly different from Russians in multiple aspects. Ukrainians, on the other hand, aren't.

Demographic projections predict Russia to be Muslim majority towards the end of the century, at roughly the same time Western European nations will become majority non-European. Moscow and St. Petersburg might achieve this much earlier, similar to other European capitals like London. Russian (ethno-)nationalists have been angry for years about the higher fertility of Muslim minorities and Central Asian migration that are the causes behind this.

The Kremlin's line on this has vacillated between vague overtures towards blood-based nationalism and civic nationalism à la 'no such thing as an ethnic Russian' in their rhetoric and doing basically nothing to stem the tide or even facilitating it with migration treaties in practical terms.

Despite the similarity to examples of Western race-themed cuckiness, the line about 'no such thing as an ethnic Russian' is at least aligned with the reality of the traditions of the Russian state, so I can't fault them for that. While the Putinist system obviously comes across as lame-ass from the perspective of a blood & soil nationalist, that doesn't disprove my original point.

Suppose I oppose a Coalition of the Willing style invasion of Venezuela on the basis that it would turn into a massive mess, that resources are needed elsewhere, that the various tools available are ineffective for achieving objectives.

That doesn't make me pro-Maduro or pro-Venezuela. Both are bad. It's a very poorly run country exporting all kinds of problems. However, the right tools to fix the problem don't exist and using the wrong tools will make the situation worse. Have sanctions on Venezuela made anything better? No. There's good reason to think they've made things worse, driving up oil prices.

Likewise with Russia. We have tools like sanctions and military action. They don't work or require sacrifices that are not justified by the gains on offer. We shouldn't use them. What have we gotten? Economic problems in Europe, a wrecked and diminishing Ukraine, a lot of angry Russians. All of this was procured at considerable expense. Finland and Sweden were already in the Western camp, so having them in NATO is not terribly helpful.

Since everyone loves their WW2 metaphors with this conflict and 1938 can hardly be avoided in these discussions, let's think about the Stresa Front. The Allied Powers of WW1, Britain, France and Italy were working together. All were agreed that Hitler's Germany was a little too dangerous, they shouldn't be allowed to annex Austria and pursue dangerous revanchist tendencies. Then Italy decided to invade Ethiopia. Britain and France decided that they couldn't stand for this and imposed sanctions on Italy. This did nothing to help the Ethiopians who were ground down and annexed. Italy left the Stresa Front. Mussolini joined up with Hitler, giving him the greenlight to annex Austria and make lots more problems for the Allies.

If we're not willing to fight (and we're not because of Russia's H-bombs) then why go out of our way to cause problems for them? Do we want them to help China as much as possible in a future conflict? Do we want them to shovel heaps of weapons into any future invasions we launch? Do we want them to coup random African countries? The policies we've been pursuing are very unhelpful.

Because the dominant narrative from the MSM is anti-Russian, and the easiest way to be hip is to just say the exact opposite of what the MSM says without looking too much into the details.

Not really pro Russia, but anyone that fights the globalists I can't be too mad at. They are the biggest threat to the world and have the most immediately negative impact on my life so the more they bleed the happier I am. If its some place that I have no real connection to doing the work and taking the blows in response all the better for me. They lost a lot of prestige in the middle east but unfortunately plenty of lied to Americans had to die for it, when Ukraine collapses and they lose even more face no Americans will have died (the mercs and spooks that go there are only American on paper, and in reality are globalists or opportunists chasing globalist cash that know what they're getting themselves into)

I also don't buy that Russia is an aggressor or much of a threat to America at this point (they are an impediment to global empire though). This ignores a lot of history and hand waves away all of the globalist / NATOs foreign intervention and expansion. NATO acts a lot like mafia protection racket on behalf of DC / Brussels, destabilize and regime change parts of the world, then offer protection from the chaos they create, with the implied threat that this could happen to you as well if you don't submit.

Also just pro common sense, there has never been any chance that Ukraine could win, regardless of how much of our money the globalists pour into the country (while skimming lots for them and their friends in the MIC). Trying to hunt for Russia's nuclear red lines is just profound idiocy, continually escalating and using each non response as a reason to be more confident that there will never be one is just... It's rare to see something that stupid even with how corrupt and full of yes men willing to human centipede there way up the ladder globalist institutions have become. Almost hope they find the red line at this point.

This wasn't originally a reason, but over time after having followed the war closely I've just come to be absolutely disgusted by the Kiev regime. From day one the propaganda coming out of that place was just insulting. On par with urban legends of North Korean propaganda. If Zelensky played golf at all he'd shoot nothing but hole in ones. You expect a certain amount of propaganda during a war, but it's been absurd. Seeing how their border with Europe has become a drone monitored barbed wire spectacle that the Republicans here could only dream of, and watching people get beaten and ripped off the streets for conscription, watching them and the globalists concoct ways to force or deport Ukrainians back into the country after they support asylum for muslims that have passed through a half dozen safe countries... The way troops are sacrificed and sent on suicide missions to Crimea, or across the Dnieper to Krynky for months... all just for Zelensky's publicity. It'd be abhorrent even for a war that had some achievable end goals, but for one that has no purpose beyond robbing western countries, psyoping their increasingly delusional populations into misplaced jingoism and enriching some treacherous Ukrainian elites it's just disgusting.

They could've taken defensive positions with all the western kit gifted to them, ceded some more territory and taken a big L yes, but really dug in and shortened the lines enough that even with their limited population they could've had plenty of reserves more concentrated AA etc. Basically the ability to keep the front stable for years and convince Russia to negotiate, instead they blow it all on some publicity stunt to impress their western masters complete with Hollywood movie trailer (shhh). This operation's goal was to "liberate" the part of "occupied" aka separatist Ukraine that has the least desire to be part of Ukraine and the most Russians... now they randomly invade Russia, again lengthening a front they already can't man, for an op that even western propagandists are struggling to invent a purpose beyond PR for. Weeks later we have a stalled out offensive with the biggest Ukrainian losses since their summer offensive and their Donetsk front is collapsing...

So yeah, best of luck to Russia, to AFD and FN, to Trump, to the Ukrainian men trying to escape, to Elon Musk, and really at this point anyone that isn't just parroting what they read in globalist media.

Large part seems being contrarian for sake of being contrarian and then building justification on top of that.

Or assuming that entire reality is opposite to what broadly defined left claims.

Also, isolationism.

Also, isolationism.

Hell, I wouldn’t even mind if those posters actually argued that they want US isolationism. At least that’s a position that can be argued. Instead it’s almost always ”the west shouldn’t” as if ”the west” meant only the US.

I'm not American; I think other countries should also mind their own.

Then you should have no problem saying ”I think [insert your country here] should…”

And of course for many countries in the west, supporting Ukrane is by far the least costly way to stave off Russian agression aimed directly at them.

I think Canada should stay out of foreign wars? Sure -- I do also have opinions on what the US should do since we tend to get dragged along, I think that is legitimate?

I don't care what Europe does, although I have roughly the same sympathy level for the EU as an organization as I do Russia -- this is not because I'm pro-Russia; I am anti-EU.

I think Canada should stay out of foreign wars? Sure -- I do also have opinions on what the US should do since we tend to get dragged along, I think that is legitimate?

Sure, that's a logical position that can be argued. I disagree with it but I have no a problem with people making such argument.

What I do have a problem with is when people talk about "the west" when they're really talking about "US and Canada" when it comes to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

So you are objecting specifically to people who think the European nations shouldn't meddle in each other's affairs? (Assuming 'West' means NA + EU/UK here?)

If so that also seems like a logical position that could be argued, given that the (early 20th century) Serbian unpleasantness was widely considered to have been kind of a bad idea?

No. I’m objecting to people who say ”the west” when they really mean ”USA” and who assume European countries have no agency and should blindly follow in doing what that person thinks is the best for USA.

More comments

Why are you anti-EU?

They are anti-freedom and want to homogenize the cultures of a bunch of countries I care about -- the former is also true of Russia, and enough in and of itself to make me anti-{x}; the latter is strike two and means I'm maybe even a little more anti-EU than anti-Russia?

I've been called that on here I think, but 'isolationist' would be a better word for me. I don't have a strong opinion on Russia per se.

When the only options are 'pro-war' and 'pro-russian' a lot of nuance becomes unavailable.

Mostly because the left is pro-Ukraine. With a bit of support for Putin because he is anti-LGBTQ. It's not much deeper than that.

Why not? It's not like you'll be banned / doxed / pursued for being pro-Russian here, as long as you're not insulting other posters too much in the process.

Which goes for most positions here.

I suppose why do people stan for a country that is clearly an enemy of the west/europe/america and invading sovereign countries with little justification? is more of my question.

I think here it's more anti-Western elite than actual pro-Russia, certainly compared to Twitter.

I suppose why do people stan for a country that is clearly an enemy of the west/europe/america

Presumably they don't like the way the West/Europe/America is going and would like to see the current ruling institutions and elites embarrased.

and invading sovereign countries with little justification?

What counts as a justification for war is up for debate. Some people reject the moral view of diplomacy that cares about things like sovereignty and justifications and think that a view based on threats and interests is more realistic. In this view things like a trend of NATO expansion become a trigger for war even if Ukraine didn't actually join NATO or do anything to harm Russia directly, and the only way this war could have been avoided and future wars also is if Western diplomats stop looking at things in idealistic moral terms and start thinking about how to preserve the balance of power.

There is a risk of implying too much about Russia with this model, if Western leaders are all idealists their enemies must be the opposite and therefore Putin is a rational calculator right? I can see someone convincing themselves into the pro-Russia camp this way, but looking at diplomacy in terms of threats and interests means you have to be open to the possibility of people misjudging their interests and the 'Putin made a huge blunder' case has also been made here.

Because western elites themselves are an enemy of the west / Europe / America. All you can do is pick your poison.

These two issues seem pretty orthogonal. Russia succeeding in Ukraine would certainly upset a lot of western elites, so I suppose someone could support them for that reason, but I'm not sure whether there's any strategic logic to it.

nah, empires need to continually expand to keep the spoils coming for the interior. Globalists exhausting themselves in the ME and eastern Europe, especially with China on the rise could easily end them. At the very least it'd ruin their hopes for some eventual whole world centralized control.

And the answer is the same- it's not like you'll be banned / doxed / pursued for such a stance here, as long you're not insulting other posters too much in the process.

Since this is a contrast to large parts of the 'normal' internet, the places you can simultaneously openly express such views without being in an ideological echo chamber are limited. Hence, the Motte gets a lot more of those sort of people than places that actively weed them out.

Canada

In a surprising turn, the ruling Liberal Party of Canada has announced changes to the Temporary Foreign Workers program that would limit the number of admissions; regions with an unemployment rate of 6% or more will not see any application processed for low-wage positions, companies will not be allowed to have more than 10% of their workforce be staffed through the program, and the validity of the program is reduced from 2 years to 1 year. The Liberal Party of Canada has also expressed, though without any commitment yet, that they might revise down their 500 000 immigrants a year target. This is on the backdrop of abysmal (and persistent) poll results for the LPC forecasting a severe loss in the election expected in 2025.

Critics have already pointed out many flaws in the changes, such as how it does not affect the foreign student pipeline, which is a large part of the migration influx. How the 6% unemployment rate restriction applies to the initial request but workers could be moved between regions after being approved.

Is this a big increase in the annual flow of immigrants in the last few years, or is it that the accumulated stock has reached the point where people complain? Also, are the numbers driven by points-based immigrants or is there another route that is driving things?

I am asking because there is a fairly widespread theory of immigration politics in the UK (and to a lesser extent Australia) that it's the sovereignty, not the numbers, and that the success of the Canadian and Australian points systems was proof of concept that you could have mass legal immigration without a public revolt as long as you the system appeared to be under control, including low illegal immigration and low "obviously undesirable" immigration (criminals, Islamists, dole-bludgers etc). Dominic Cummings even put out a Substack saying that Brexit had successfully detoxified the immigration issue because mass immigration was no longer being imposed on us by foreigners. (Reader, the type of mass immigration that most bothered people was mass Muslim immigration, which never was).

This is beside the points system, it's linked to a temporary worker program and the foreign student program. They have existed for a while, the former being mostly made for seasonal agricultural workers, but it was expended to fix a "labor shortage" during Covid. The temporary workers, if they get a permanent job offer, can then get on a pathway to permanent residence. Foreign students get a pathway too, but many of them are enrolled to diploma mills that don't really expect them to study, and they just come here and start working immediately.

I'm not sure how gradual it was, a lot of people mention they noticed it coming back to their regular stores and restaurants after Covid. Anecdotically, my wife and I got married and she immigrated here (from Spain) during Covid, and the process had little guardrails, just (a lot of) paperwork. We never had to have any interview or anything.

Now as to the commentary... I mostly ignore provincial and national politics as the obliviousness of Québecois and Canadians to their problems was a source of major despair for me. it's quite surprising to me to peek my head out, check what the discourse is now, and see just how much things have changed. The MAIN (!) /r/Canada subreddit is filled, filled with nothing but messages about how the immigration is just too much and how the Liberals have ruined and destroyed the country. That maybe it's not even recoverable from before decades. Particularly shocking to people is how the TFW (and International Students) are used to staff fast food service positions, while youth unemployment is spiking. Most proeminently Tim Hortons, which seems to be all over the country staffed with almost nothing but Indians now. Most surprising to me is how it's now firmly within the Overton window to not just cite economic concerns with the influx of immigrants, but sociocultural ones too. Which is of course the polite way to say people believe we're letting in a lot of immigrants who are not a good fit for our way of life. The people saying such have found a neat little trick to avoid sharing the blame for supporting the LPC all these years; see, it's all big business' fault for corrupting the LPC to bring in all these people to use as quasi slaves to depress wages. They were told they were going to have Change with the Liberals. Of course, the Liberals did precisely what they were promising to do. And none of it is to blame on the narrative-following majority who for all those years treated unchecked immigration as an unalloyed good, something to be celebrated on its own merit and obviously the right thing to do regardless of if it even made sense economically (which they believed it did, despite the fact that only the barest simplest economics education is required to forecast the effect on wages and housing affordability).

On related anecdote, I went to get breakfast and coffee yesterday at the nearest Tim Hortons, and as my order was taking a long time I could observe the staff. As usual, almost the entire staff was south asian, predominantly women, with one middle eastern/northern african looking man acting as a shift manager and one single white teenager/young man. There must have been around 10 people running around behind that counter. The orders for the drive-thru service were coming out but people in the restaurants were piling in and only a trickle would get to give their order and no one was recieving their food. Now the workers all seemed to be working and to be very busy but still nothing was coming out for the clients inside the restaurant. The manager and the teenager appeared to be the only ones with agency in the situation, noticing the customers were starting to get impatient running from worker to worker, telling them what they should be doing so that they could actually complete orders. We're told that service in fast food restaurants is bad now because since COVID they got used to running with skeleton crews, people are underpaid and because the conditions are so bad working in food service now that it's unfair to expect people to work hard in them. But the area behind the counter in that Tim Hortons seemed very well staffed to me. And presumably, if the people there are immigrant workers then the working conditions there would have been appealing enough to move from across the world for. As I waited 20 minutes for a coffee and a breakfast sandwich, I really struggled to see how anyone except employers could have been fooled this was in Canadians interest.

I mentioned a while back that when I visited, I was shocked that basically every person I talked to brought up immigration, unprompted. I wouldn't be at all surprised anymore to see that the conversation has developed even further in that direction in the last year.

What kind of hit me yesterday, though, was that these last several years may legitimately change Canada's demographics in a significant way, effectively forever. The shift was so rapid and so significant in numbers in such a short time, partially masked from public scrutiny by COVID, and now the culture may never be the same again. It's hard to describe how I feel about it except to make comparison to an immigration policy version of a coup d'etat. The facts on the ground changed so fast, partially hidden from view, and now the new reality is a fait accompli. It's a weird feeling.

The way you described that mirrors the perception I have had in a number of countries on a number of social / political evolutions. Things that people might not have minded so much in abstract or in small amounts, being suddenly irreversible, with a sense of both lack of control and a lack of prospects of future control. Some conflate that with 'conservative' thinking, but I've seen the same dynamic in different parts of the political spectrum in different parts of the world, whether it's American liberals uncomfortable with the takeover of progressives of once-liberal institutions, European centrists at the post-financial system collapse of the European political center and rise of the right, older Koreans at the generational collapse of pan-Korean identity, and so on. The loss of a feeling of agency / control, of being replaced, and is unsettling, and normal, as is the sort of compensatory movements to try and re-establish a sense of control whether it can be or not.

For Canada specifically, I suspect the demographic transition will lead to a cultural transition with geopolitical ramifications that will be felt in a generation or two away. A significant part of Candian culture and identity was a distinction from, but also kinship with, the US on various historical / cultural grounds, which helped underpin the general stability of the bilateral relationship. If/as Canadian historical identity shifts away from a sense of kindship, it's hardly impossible to see a rise of a Canadian political identity that not only emphasizes the distinction / separation away from the US far more, but also is more willing to entertain geopolitical alignment separation as well, which introduces the possibility of interesting times that would previously have been inconceivable... or the inverse, a destruction of Canadian cultural identity as distinct but separate from the American cultural identity, and thus lead to an even closer alignment / political integration than would have been previously thinkable.

Regardless of what, with cultural change will come the increased potential for divergence from the previously dominant policies. Whether that's bad or good is a matter of viewpoint on the status quo, but as they say the only inevitabilities are death, taxes, and change.

Some conflate that with 'conservative' thinking

It is the essence of conservatism on a philosophical, meta level, it's just that not all conservatisms align on the object level, considering they have different things they want to conserve. Conservatism can be left wing. In late Cold War Soviet Union, even though the labels were probably different, the conservative old guard was against capitalism. (I tried really, really hard to turn this into a "In Soviet Russia..." joke as it was literally about Soviet Russia and the expectations being reversed, sorry I failed).

It's what conservatives the world keep trying to tell the excited youth: "This might seem like a good idea now, it might feel like it's going well, but one of the most enduring lessons of history is that by the time you find out all the downstream effects of a change it can be too late to stop or reverse it, so take change slowly"

The MAIN (!) /r/Canada subreddit is filled, filled with nothing but messages about how the immigration is just too much and how the Liberals have ruined and destroyed the country.

Wow, you weren't kidding. 11/25 of those posts are directly about immigration.

Also, half the sidebar is in French, c'est trop mignon!

By my count of the current ones on the top page:

Directly related to immigration: 13

Indirectly or debatably related to immigration: 4

Unrelated to immigration: 8

I think it's fair to say the topic dominates the public discourse

  • Poilievre asks Singh to pull support for Liberal government to prompt fall election - Indirectly about immigration

  • More Ontario college students are protesting over their failing grades - Wasn't sure, checked the link. "While the plea for support was allegedly directed mostly at the local Punjabi community, hundreds of residents have jumped in to comment on the matter, many of them pointing fingers at "diploma mill" colleges and various levels of government for the state of the nation's international student program." Directly about immigration

  • Canada’s Conservatives are crushing Justin Trudeau - Pierre Poilievre is even winning over the young and the unionised - Indirectly about immigration

  • Canadian Immigration Policy Isn’t Helping Anyone: BMO - Directly about immigration

  • Poilievre says he would set immigration targets based on housing, jobs and health-care trends - Directly...

  • Canadians split on taking in more Gazan refugees, concerned about screening: Poll - Directly...

  • NDP support takes a dive in new national poll, as Conservatives maintain sizeable lead - Indirectly

  • Judge blocks failed refugee claimant’s deportation from Canada, scolds minister for misleading evidence - Directly

  • Premier Danielle Smith reveals plans to transfer some Alberta hospitals away from AHS | Globalnews.ca - Unrelated

  • Union alleges abuse of foreign workers, calls for program to be suspended - Directly

  • Toronto workers have longest commutes in Canada: StatsCan - Debatably indirectly (related to housing affordability)

  • Canada ends policy of allowing visitors to apply for work permits from within the country - Directly

  • Justin Trudeau’s legacy will be destroying the Canadian consensus on immigration - Directly

  • Canada Pension Plan investment board to spend estimated $300 million-plus on its lavish new office at CIBC Square - Unrelated

  • Trudeau's zombie TFW policy is sucking the life out of Canada's youth - Directly

  • Rules discourage Canadians from generating more solar power than they use - Unrelated

  • Spike in ‘open permits’ shows more temporary foreign workers are facing abuse, experts say - Directly

  • Ottawa needs to abolish the temporary foreign worker program - Directly

  • Kate O'Brien wins Canada's first medal of Paris Paralympics with track cycling bronze - Unrelated

  • Canada: Over $2.4 Billion in Legal Marijuana Sold in First Half of 2024 - Unrelated

  • Canada Post at ‘critical juncture’ due to unsustainable finances: board chair - Unrelated

  • Toronto terror suspect came to Canada in 2018 and became a citizen last spring - Directly

  • ‘People will die’: Doctors call on Alberta government to save heath care system with urgent action | rdnewsnow.com - Unrelated

  • As tax breaks drive art donations, Canada’s public galleries overflow with more works than they could ever show - Unrelated

  • GUNTER: China a threat to our democracy and Trudeau is ignoring it - Was unsure, checked, it's in large part about China exerting pressure on the Chinese diaspora in Canada, so directly related to immigration.

And many of those that aren't directly about immigration will be indirectly about immigration: talks of polls, elections, of the NDP (the left wing party) keeping the LPC in power, posts about housing (in)affordability are all indirectly about immigration.

I think something broke in Canadians mind recently and seeing so, so, so many brown faces around them they've stopped feeling guilty. Not hateful, mind you, but not guilty enough to just roll over and give sanction to unrestricted immigration. And especially since it's now within the Overton window to notice that there is a price to pay for immigration. I'm not sure how it happened, but I remember going to Toronto for work about 6-7 years ago and I noticed once that at a busy intersection in the downtown, financial center, I was literally the only white person I could see around me. It was an eerie feeling, maybe not as strong for me as for locals since being Québecois Toronto has never felt to me like "my people's clay". From what I hear, it got much worse since. I imagine a lot of Canadians, especially those in cities, have now had such experiences, of looking around and suddenly feeling like they've become the minority. Maybe that's what did it.

We're told that service in fast food restaurants is bad now because since COVID they got used to running with skeleton crews,

We’re told the same thing down here, but it doesn’t seem to be true. I blame an increase in drug use/decline in testing driven by the labor shortage.

Here I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with it; it's never rough looking people staffing fast food restaurants. Proper looking immigrant women, student-age immigrants, or the odd elderly people. None of these I can imagine taking drugs.

For the women, I would suggest the theory that many of them (particularly those of traditional societies) weren't brought up with the expectation of doing serious work outside the home, but having moved here with their husbands, taking into account cost of life here, they find themselves forced to work and are unprepared for it, which could explain why they make for inefficient employees. It's just the intangible, hard to notice things that we learn from school and other preparation for work that make the difference.

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