site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 12, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I mean, to be fair, no taxes on tips acknowledges a de facto reality: who reports their tips in their tax returns? Enforcement would be impossible. As a handout to Nevada, it makes sense politically.

Harris's proposed policies make Trump look like the king of austerity. Considering how spendthrift he is, that's an accomplishment.

Most tips these days are on credit card payments, which the employer reports anyways.

Now certain bartenders can and do get away with underreporting income, but mostly in bars where paying big cash payments is A Thing as a status symbol in the scene. Almost all of these people use cash payments to steal from their employer anyways(through various scams enabled by the structures of bar management), so bar owner economics is to disincentivize cash payments. Waitstaff usually isn't that sophisticated and just reports that cash payers tip them 0%, then pocket the money- but you won't catch them because they're smart enough not to deposit the cash. OTOH restaurant managers tend to tell me that a higher percentage of cashiers(waiters usually aren't allowed to cash out their own checks) have been pilfering from the till recently; I suspect that this is related to low-end labor shortages making it harder to hire honest people for those kinds of jobs, so some of the same factors apply- it's impossible to steal credit card payments from your employer without much more sophistication than these people have.

TDLR there's a large quantity of tipping done via credit card and no way for service workers to prevent it being reported. The incentives of owner-men in the hospitality industry are to increase this percentage due to employee theft.

Experiment: When a plumber, electrician, or handyman has finished his job and expects payment, ask if paying in cash is OK. You will see an expression of pure joy cross his face as he answers "yes".

Ask them for a cash discount. If they don't offer one up front, which they often do. I suspect the smarter ones are offering an X% cash discount and recording an X+N% cash discount, and the dumber ones are just not recording the payment at all.

and the dumber ones are just not recording the payment at all.

I don't know anything about taxes, why are they the dumber ones?

I imagine it looks more suspicious in an audit to have records (phone, email, etc.) that you performed a job but never got paid for it vs. getting paid (but only recording a fraction of what you were actually paid).

Wait a second. Audits mean the government gets to sift through all your communications???

I suppose they only have the right to see email accounts and phone records of your business, not you personally?

As best I know an audit has nothing to do with sifting through your phone and email.

In tax audits, more often than not they take your business records at face value. They usually are just checking that you calculated tax correctly and have support for your figures. You're in deep shit and probably messed something up badly if they have suspicions about the veracity of your purchase orders and statements of work.

In financial audits...yeah you shouldn't have records of work that you've done with no recorded revenue to match. Your revenue would fail something called the completeness assertion.

This is a thinly veiled ad for some service that tracks your location for tax residency purposes, but it looks like they can subpeona all sorts of things:

https://blog.monaeo.com/when-the-tax-auditor-subpoenas-your-cell-phone-records

It's too obvious. If an auditor comes in there will be obvious tells if a fair number of jobs just aren't recorded, like too many supply purchases. Presumably a good enough financial wizard could hide most of this as well, but it will be difficult. On the other hand, figuring out that the amount of cash discount is usually overstated would be much harder to find.

If they don't offer one up front, which they often do.

Although I think it's best to leave this one until the end. When the work is done, fix the price as if there are no discounts. Only once the price is firm do you then bring up discounts.

Otherwise you get the situation where they say "Oh, that's WITH the cash discount" when you go to pay.

I mean, to be fair, no taxes on tips acknowledges a de facto reality: who reports their tips in their tax returns? Enforcement would be impossible. As a handout to Nevada, it makes sense politically.

Taxing tips is basically a huge part of IRS enforcement. It is why you always see stats that most audits are on low-mid income people. The IRS knows they dont report so they audit them and check bank statements, and almost always find the person was committing tax fraud by underreporting tips.

check bank statements,

In my country tips are much smaller and they're left as cash. Would there be a way to audit those? Are US tips all credit card based or given as part of waiter's salary?

Yes. Cash tips get audited quite frequently. Along with the restaurants themselves.

Cash tips get audited quite frequently.

By what mechanism?

IRS sees you work in a service coded sector. They check your tip box. If its empty they get super suspicious. If its filled out their database compares your number to everyone else in your area and flags those that appear low. Those get assigned a case agent who sends you a threatening letter asking for proof of your reported number matches. You have none cus you're a lying liar who lied and got caught. Now they are looking at your bank statements for 3 years and eventually you enter some payment plan to pay back the last 3 years of tip fraud you committed.

You have none cus you're a lying liar who lied and got caught.

But in reality I have none because no one has any proof about cash tips, right?

Now they are looking at your bank statements for 3 years

To what end?

pay back the last 3 years of tip fraud you committed

So basically they just assume that I made the average tip amount in my area and calculate the fraud based on this?

It seems like the difference between my reported amount and the average must be very high for this method to be of any significance. If I work at an unpopular bar my tips might be 3x less than the average without any tip fraud whatsoever.

But in reality I have none because no one has any proof about cash tips, right?

There is cash deposited in your bank account. Wheres that from buddy? The other bartender at your bar reported $20k in cash tips and you reported $0.

Or maybe you are unbanked, but also somehow pay $1000 in rent and $500 in car payments every month while reporting $500 in income. Sus sus.

To what end?

To see all the cash you deposited.

So basically they just assume that I made the average tip amount in my area and calculate the fraud based on this?

Thats where they start. Then they dig.

It seems like the difference between my reported amount and the average must be very high for this method to be of any significance. If I work at an unpopular bar my tips might be 3x less than the average without any tip fraud whatsoever.

Of course. But because you are stupid and a bartender at a shitty bar, your reported a ludicrous amount that no one could possibly believe because you think you are smarter than the system.

Standard US tips are 20% of the bill. Restaurant owners strongly encourage credit card payments to 1) discourage employee theft and 2) prove their employees are making enough in tips to comply with certain regulations, both compensation and contract based. Tips left by credit card are paid to the waiter on a paycheck with the taxes already taken out.

That being said, waiters love it when they're tipped in cash and usually don't report it.

Standard US tips are 20% of the bill.

A cursory Google search suggests that 15 to 20 percent is the standard range.

Restaurant owners strongly encourage credit card payments

What about the big class-action lawsuit regarding credit-card fees? And the other lawsuit regarding credit-card policies that forbade businesses from "steering" customers away from credit cards and toward cash?

A cursory Google search suggests that 15 to 20 percent is the standard range

That's the commonly held definition by most people, but there has been a noticeable push towards making 20% the new standard. 20% is usually the default suggested amount on POS systems when I use them, and in some cases it's the lowest option displayed aside from "no tip". This is probably favored by both tipped staff and management, because it leads to larger tips and it reduces pressure for management to raise wages.

This is dumb for all kinds of reasons, chiefly that percentage-based tips are inherently indexed to inflation. And "muh inflation" is the most commonly employed defense of this movement by advocates.

I remember when a flat 15% was standard and 20% was reserved for exceptional service. It wasn't even that long ago. Bah humbug.

Believe it or not 10% used to be standard. And of course you are correct that tips are automatically adjusted for inflation (like TIPS, funnily enough) so there is no legitimate reason for the percentage to increase over time.

My family has severely curtailed restaurant outings for many reasons but personally that is one of mine.

Yeah I'm feeling gaslit by the way that we all turned to saying 15% was standard. My father taught me it was 10% and any more was for excellent service.

it leads to larger tips and it reduces pressure for management to raise wages.

Of course if management raised wages they'd have to raise prices accordingly, so it's a wash from the consumer perspective.

The real interesting part is the recent shit storm in CA about restaurant fees. Basically the legislature passed a law that businesses have to bake all fees into their listed prices. Restaurants shat themselves about this and an amendment to exempt them was fast tracked through the legislature like shit through a goose. However, I could never find a convincing argument for why they should care about this, unless they think that people are so stupid that they'll keep paying a 10% service fee but if they see the prices on the menu increase by 10% then they'll... Stay home? Restaurant owners are clearly insanely focused on sticker prices for some reason that they won't come out and say. Even their op eds never make any real argument, just gesturing at how hard it is to run a restaurant.

However, I could never find a convincing argument for why they should care about this, unless they think that people are so stupid that they'll keep paying a 10% service fee but if they see the prices on the menu increase by 10% then they'll... Stay home?

Over time, yes. Or buy lower-ticket items.

People are stupid. They will do all sorts of stupid, irrational things. Restaurants want to charge people extra service fees on top of the sticker price for the same reason almost all prices end in .99: cognitive biases.

The whole world is a series of small nudges that, in aggregate, add up to insane wealth.

Or buy lower-ticket items

Bigger ticket items are actually less profitable for restaurants on average, because so much of it gets eaten up in food costs. I suspect the bigger concern for restauranteurs is that customers will stop ordering $2.50 cokes(easily the highest markup thing on the menu) to go with their $30 steaks if the price of the former increases by too much.

I can believe that they think this, but not all restaurants have fees, so it's clearly possible to run a business without it. They also never clearly say this (but I guess that might be bad for business).

More comments

I doubt that much would change if they made tips tax exempt. Tax fraud in those lines business is rampant anyway and not dependant on tips. IRS enforcement would still focus on those businesses and find about as much fraud, just using marginally different methods.

Making tips tax exempt just seems like a handout to some demographic (Nevada?), and not any kind of real attempt at improving either the IRS or general tax compliance.

Low-mid income people do get audited more than anyone but the very high income, but it's not about tips, it's about the earned income tax credit. They might find a lot of unreported tips once they do the audit, though.

I mean, to be fair, no taxes on tips acknowledges a de facto reality: who reports their tips in their tax returns?

The structure of the tip credit is designed to strongly encourage employers to force tipped-as-in-lower-minimum-wage workers to mark down at least (untipped) minimum wage in tips -- otherwise, the employer has to cover the gap out of their pocket -- and there are some other tax (and SSI) benefits to accurately reporting the typical tipped income.

I won't pretend that this means everybody complies even remotely accurately, and if you're on paper as a normal-minimum wage employee most of those incentives fall away, but it's very far from the free for all most expect

Cash tips are generally not taxed, it's literally one of the reasons why I tip servers cash when I think the did a good job. Automated tips are taxed though, and they should because waiters can make 6 figures at a good restaurant. There's a reason why pretty much every wait staff prefers tipping over regular wages.