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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   2085 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for January 17, 2024

The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:

  • Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.

  • Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.

  • Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.

  • Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).

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Post your gym playlists / songs, I’m tired of the bad pop remixes and generic EDM that Spotify recommends me.

Cardio: Mirror's Edge chase mix. Background music for a game about running makes for pretty good running background music.

For pushing through something: French screamo

Vidya soundtracks and remixes/arrangements are very very very underrated in this regard, but they might not always be up on Spotify (my main reason for not using it).

Quick link dump, if this is unreadable I can organize properly later.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=BI6U8F8KDIE?feature=shared

Gym cardio - random Antti Martikainen album

Cardio outdoors - Schubert’s “Death and the Maiden.”

Gym lifting - Iron Maiden from 82-93, Black Sabbath, Dio, Sabaton

https://www.mixcloud.com/pedroraw/

I like this guy.

If you're a weeb them Akame ga Kill: Gekisen it's a minute and a half of calm before the drop/hype. I time it to 30 seconds before the drop to psych up before heavy squats.

Military music is also pretty effective. Any Sousa march. British Grenadiers or US Field Artillery March. Sakkijarven Polkka. Though I have a special place in my heart for "Merck toch hoe sterck" for those lifts where it feels like it's not about exploding but rather about grinding the bastard out.

If I'm on a treadmill, the soundtrack to Run, Lola, Run. Other than that I don't care and listen to whatever is coming from the gym speakers.

I'm a fan of absurd YouTube titles. It mixes the routine of the "same old workout" with "new thing to hear". Keeps the boredom at bay.

I am a late 20s/early 30s American man of South Asian descent, living and working in NYC. Several months ago my account was banned from the dating app Hinge. This has made a lot of people[citation needed] very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

I can only speculate as to who got me banned and why. Suffice it to say, I don't think that I deserve this treatment, but the point is moot: as far as I know, there is no appeals process nor any other recourse available to me or anyone else in this situation.

Hinge was by far the best dating app that I had ever used in terms of the number and quality of matches of the type that I'm looking for (mid-late 20s highly-educated Asian-American women looking for a serious relationship/marriage), as well as the conversion rate from match to texting to date. Since my account was banned, I have been forced to use Coffee Meets Bagel, which has resulted in far fewer matches, conversations that go nowhere, and almost zero dates.

What should I do now?

Here is a smattering of ideas that I have considered:

Meet People IRL

Frankly this approach seems dead in the water in this day and age. The only reliable way to meet people in person anymore has been, in my experience, through academia. I had decent dating success in graduate school, though I think that might be more a statement about me/the social settings that I thrive and in: I know from experience that one thing a lot of women find attractive in men is being passionate about something, and passionately holding forth -- or better yet, leading a discussion -- about something. As a TA, I had plenty of opportunities to do just that.

Perhaps I could go for another master's degree, part time. It's even conceivable that my employer would pay for it, if I seIl it right. But that seems like a major investment of time and effort for very questionable benefit.

Use Different Apps

I'm open to recommendations for other dating apps that would be a good fit for someone with my demographics, type and relationship goals (vide supra).

As mentioned previously, I've found CMB to be pretty terrible. I suspect that I may be blacklisted from all Match Group apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) due to the Hinge ban, but I could give them a try. However, my limited experience with them has been that they are far worse than Hinge.

I've heard about The League and created a profile but have not put much effort into using it. I could be convinced to spend more time on it if someone can vouch for it.

There's a newfangled app called Saturday that the kids these days are using, but it seems to cater to a slightly younger clientele (early 20s-ish, primarily), and it's really not a dating-centric app; my read is that it's more for meetups/making friends.

Any other apps that I could use?

Circumvent the Ban

I'm reasonably tech-savvy I've done a bit of research on how to do a "hard reset". It sounds like in order to even have a fighting chance of pulling this off, I'd have to:

  1. Buy a new phone
  2. Create a new Apple ID/Google account
  3. Get a new phone number (and hope that whoever previously had that number did not get it banned from Hinge ...)
  4. Never connect the phone to my home WiFi (i.e. exclusively use mobile data) and disable precise location tracking
  5. Change my profile info (name, location, DOB, answers to text prompts)
  6. Use entirely new profile pics
  7. Pray that whoever got me banned doesn't see and report my profile again

I am willing to put in the time, effort, and money to make all of these things happen. My biggest concern is with item 6: I don't have that many good profile pics beyond the ones I put on my old profile. I've been playing around with some models for generating photos based on Stable Diffusion and I've managed to generate some fairly realistic pics of me, so that may be an option if worst comes to worst. Or I could hire a professional photographer to take some more photos of me.

As for item 7, it's been several months now so I think the odds are pretty slim that that person -- whoever she is -- sees me again, remembers me, and hates me enough to report me again after all this time.

Unfortunately, I was stupid enough to do the "recommended" facial verification on my old profile. I have no idea what kind of technology they use for that, nor how long they store the data for banned accounts, but that alone might mean I'm SOL. I wouldn't do it again if I made a new account, unless forced to, in which case I guess I could grow out my facial hair first to try and look different, or get a friend to scan his face instead.

Something Else Entirely

??? I'm open to any and all suggestions. Thanks for your time!

I had decent dating success in graduate school

You're in NYC, the options are practically endless. (from fellow late 20s south Asian male who used to be in NYC). Climbing and mixed-gender sports are the easiest places to get started. If you were socially well adjusted enough to get laid in school and be a TA, then you'll be alright.

all Match Group apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.)

Bumble is not owned by the match group

Circumvent the Ban

Also, yes. Circumvent the ban. If you can't afford a new dual sim phone, then you can't afford to date in NYC. Use your middle name or change the spelling. The wifi thing sounds like a good idea. Similarly, if you don't have enough new photos, then you need to be going out more. Dating apps won't help here. See, even if you get dates, you need to be interesting enough to hold their attention. If your life is boring enough that you can't come up with good photos for hinge within 3 months, then you would have gotten ghost with or without the ban.

Unfortunately, I was stupid enough to do the "recommended" facial verification on my old profile

What's the worst they can do ? Ban you again ?

I've been playing around with some models for generating photos based on Stable Diffusion and I've managed to generate some fairly realistic pics of me,

The extent to which a man will go to stay inside.

Frankly this approach seems dead in the water in this day and age.

It isn't. There's never been a better time to .... go outside and talk to girls.

With respect, this demonstrates an already very constrained mental attitude towards the possibilities you impute in dating. It also begs the question; if you can't start a conversation in the real world, what makes you think you'll be able to shepherd a digital conversation into it with any more success?

The only way to do it is to do it. There are millions of pages of text online theorizing about the optimal risk-frontier controlled way to strike up a conversation. It's all pointless. Talk to everyone. I've written about how to do this before;

Well, how does a fellow with underdeveloped social skills go about improving? The answer is to talk to everyone about boring shit all of the time. Master small-talk. "But small talk is bullshit! I want to get into deep conversations! And isn't that also what a mate wants?" Sure, eventually. But being able to make small-talk that isn't cliche ("crazy weather we're having"), or boring, or just you free-associating demonstrates a similar kind of subtle communication very much like flirting.

If you can get a stranger, in 60 seconds, to tell them something about themselves (basic, nothing deep), laugh at an observation, and then ask you a question, you've just made a stranger begin to trust you (in the telling of the something), enjoy being around you (laugh), and take a reciprocate interest in you (the question). And, remembering that being sneaky is bad, you're doing this in a context where you don't already want to have sex with the stranger (or, you preemptively discard that outcome. Sometimes the Barista is cute, but you're not really trying to make it happen).

The reason that reasonable women have, at best, a tepid interest in the Dating Apps is because even well-intentioned young men (like yourself) go through this optimization program to boost their matches. This lack of authenticity and, frankly, salesman-ish numbers game, will come through on dates. And, probably, via text as well. To be clear, I'm not saying it doesn't "work" (if your rubric for success is consistent dates and sex). But it doesn't work in the way you really want, which is a fulfilling and high trust relationship.

Go outside and talk to girls. The sex robots are already here. You've got a choice to make.

To be clear, I'm not saying it doesn't "work" (if your rubric for success is consistent dates and sex). But it doesn't work in the way you really want, which is a fulfilling and high trust relationship.

Go outside and talk to girls. The sex robots are already here. You've got a choice to make.

Heartily Endorsed.

The only reliable way to meet people in person anymore has been, in my experience, through academia. I had decent dating success in graduate school, though I think that might be more a statement about me/the social settings that I thrive and in

I think you're on to something here and you may be able to replicate this success by carefully selecting the IRL settings. Two key things that help IRL are (1) finding a place with singles that you find attractive and (2) places where you can be in a position of slightly higher status/expertise relative to the other people in that setting.

Things like volunteering or running a niche book club are potential places where you might be able to find success.

Meet People IRL

Frankly this approach seems dead in the water in this day and age. The only reliable way to meet people in person anymore has been, in my experience, through academia.

Our experiences do not match. Granted, I am not an academic. Meeting people in that setting is not my idea of a good time. Instead of talking about sustainability theory at some convention, I'd rather hang out with likeminded people ripping out decorative bushes and planting a food forest. People who are capable of Doing The Damn Work are my people.

Filtering out the flakes (men and women) who RSVP but don't attend makes the selection process for who to associate with so much easier. I'm not sure how that translates to your areas of preference. Hopefully, you can connect the dots there.

Meeting people in that setting is not my idea of a good time.

I hadn't seen that before and it got genuine laugh.

Please accept this as a token of my appreciation. ;-)

I'll repost my comment from two years ago. None of this is meant to be a bible. This is one approach

In the midwest I got a disproportionate amount of attention on Tinder (vs other apps). In the Bay my tinder match rate is lower but my Hinge match rate is higher (despite identical pictures). Moral of the story: the best app for you depends on different factors, including location; try every app at least once per locale.

In the midwest my match rate on tinder was awful when I used bad photos and great when I used better photos. My current photos are: a picture of me on a ski trip, a picture of me shirtless (tripod), a (bad-quality) picture of me in New Zealand, a picture of me reading (tripod), a (bad quality) picture of me hiking, and a picture of me playing the piano (tripod)

Some random tidbits I've picked up from a few months of online dating:

  1. A surprising number of people (including women) think it's bad for me to have the ski-trip picture because you can't see my face. It's important to have some pictures where your face is clear, but absolutely not required for all of them.

  2. TAKE LOTS OF PICTURES and only post the best. This is completely normal and not dishonest – women do this all the time. (Side note: I've never been catfished – I'm increasingly convince that most men who claim to have been catfished simply don't appreciate that women strategically select photos – if you can't tell if she's fat... well, there's a reason she isn't making it obvious)

  3. If you're going to use a shirtless pic, do it immediately after running or lifting. Again: take many pictures with many different types of lighting.

  4. Buy a tripod. It also helps to be confident/mature/social enough to ask a friend take pictures, but a tripod can be more comfortable than asking a friend to take 100 shirtless pictures. Avoid selfies.

  5. Every picture should be in a different location. (though I have two pictures in the same building, but you can't tell). Multiple pictures from the same location suggest your pool of "interesting hobbies/events" is small. Yes, your profile is a highlight reel, but you need to leave the impression that there is plenty more you could have chosen from.

  6. Don't put your height unless it helps sell you (this is probably around either 5'11" or 6 ft)

  7. Dogs are good; cats are mixed (I haven't tried either, but iirc this is from OKCupid)

  8. I think many nerds really hate the idea of presenting a false version of themselves, but normal people (including the people you match with) will overwhelmingly not consider posting (e.g.) vacation highlights or flattering angles to be misleading – it's just (unfortunately) part of the game. Part of using OLD apps for me was letting go of my pride – I had spent my whole life never overselling myself and getting by just fine because I was top of my class, etc. That kind of honesty is, unfortunately, not compatible with dating apps. It's worth noting that if you're underselling yourself compared to others, that's also a kind of dishonestly.

  9. It may be helpful to know that probably half the reason you're not getting many matches isn't because women are rejecting you, but simply because women don't swipe (in either direction) nearly as much as men. To this end buying super swipes can be helpful (I did this before I re-ramped my profiles). For most people on this sub, $500 on dating apps in exchange for 40 years of happiness is cheap at twice the price.

  10. If you think your hair doesn't look attractive, you're probably right (compare my first picture to my other two; I'm no top 2%, but at least I'm not bottom 50%). If you think your clothes don't look attractive, you're probably right. If you think your glasses don't look attractive, you're probably right. Trust your intuition. I'm a nerd interested in Lotr and statistics, who majored in math and CS, and spent my entire time as a student wearing t shirts. I still know unattractive when I see it (on me).

  11. A great, customized opening message and an average, canned opener probably aren't that different in terms of response rate. Response rate (after matching) is basically ~50% for me no matter what, so I usually just send canned messages. 2 canned messages are better than 1 custom message.

  12. If a woman matched with you and is talking to you, she is interested. You don't need to be suave or even have a decent segue to ask for her number or ask her on a date. Just ask "out of the blue" for either (I usually ask for a date then ask for a number to "work out the details"). I usually do this on the 3rd or 4th message (edit: though I usually sent pretty long messages when I was dating. YMMV, this is one approach that worked for me and is intended as an example more than as a bible).

Appreciate the effortful response, but I was already fairly happy with my results on Hinge; just needed a bit more time, I think.

The last time I used Tinder in NYC was years ago and things may have changed in the interim. I’ll give it (and possibly other apps) another try, as things may have changed over time and across locales, as you say. Thanks for the suggestion!

Yeah, wasn’t sure how applicable this was to your specifically.

Best of luck regardless!

Edit: oops, actually I mixed up your post and this one

How do you get people to turn up? Back when I could bring myself to bother with Hinge, I'd follow all of this, get the date set up, and with a horrific inevitability she'd cancel the day of the date. Then I'd ask to re-schedule, she'd say yes, then bail on the day of the re-scheduled date. Was, rinse, repeat until I get the message and stop talking to her. This happened with 95% reliability on Hinge. The last two times I got tinder dates, I got stood up both times, so I perma-deleted everything I could on there. I no longer have any trust in matches and haven't been able to bring myself to message anyone in months. I just look at the profile, see the inevitable outcome, and skip to the end where I don't go on a date. It's as if asking someone out on Hinge is some sort of disappointment to them "Gee, I really liked this guy I was talking to on this dating app, everything was going so well, I was really into him, until he asked me on a date, ugh, who does that?"

So I dispute 12.

It’s interesting because this happened once to me and it was a girl with a Snapchat in her bio. I pretty religiously avoided girls with some sort of social media (eg a instagram) in their bios since I expected they were just hunting for followers, so maybe that’s the difference?

The being stood up part or the Infinite Rescheduling part? If either only ever happened once to you, then I'm even sadder now than I was before.

If you’re sad for your general misfortune I wholeheartedly agree.

If you think this meaningfully reflects your attractiveness to women (or, alternatively, the attractiveness of your profile to women), then I disagree.

I don’t the girls thinking “he’s attractive enough to message and give my number too, but I’m not going to go on a date him” is really a thing.

For reference I’ve gone from a bad profile (iirc 1-2 matches a week? to a decent one (maybe a dozen?), so I feel like I have a decent amount of experience on both sides.

IMO if a girl is flaking I think by far the mostly likely reason is she isn’t on the app to find dates.

So no one is on the app to find dates, then? I don't think you comprehend the level of flaking I've experienced.

Back when I used Tinder in the Midwest probably half of profiles had a Snapchat or Instagram link in their profile. If you’re in a big city I’d guess it’s higher than that (if you’re trying to be an influencer or sex worker you’d presumably target bigger cities, even if you didn’t actually live there).

Alternatively maybe you’re trying an approach women don’t like — trying to be too sexually overt, not showing commitment by using short messages, etc.

But I maintain that, since I didn’t have this issue with a bad profile or with a good profile, I don’t think this says much about how attractive women find you.

No, I am not sexually suggestive, and no I do not write short messages.

Yeah I’d say probably 7/8 in 10 women on tinder have no intention of ever meeting someone on the app in real life.

I'd guess, more realistically, it's that the types of women who primarily use the app for attention have a lower bar in attractiveness for men to whom they respond, compared to the types of women who primarily use the app for actual dates. And you, like many of us, are in that range between the 2 bars. It's not that there's something about you or your behavior that's causing the women to flake, it's that the women who respond to your messages are primarily from the pool the women who know beforehand that they'll almost certainly not actually see you in person.

I can only speculate as to who got me banned and why.

Why do you think you got banned?

Circumvent the ban out of principle and exercise of technical competence.

Frankly this approach seems dead in the water in this day and age.

This is one of those things I keep seeing people post online but I just don't see in the world around me.

What do you do with your week, what are your hobbies, where do you go on a Sunday afternoon.

If your answer is you "I don't have any hobbies" and "I don't go out on Sunday", that there is your problem.

Why would you peruse another Masters Degree instead of say a job, a gym membership, or a Pilot's license? (For some reason FPOs in my area just seem to collect attractive 30 year-old women) You want to improve your dating prospects? My advice is to get buff, read books, and become interesting.

Meanwhile circumventing the ban just makes you a bad actor.

I am pursuing a job, and indeed it takes up the bulk of my day (~80 hours a week or so). Unfortunately, this job, though financially extremely rewarding, is in a very male-dominated field and my coworkers, though amiable enough in the office, are mostly settled down and not the most social creatures. Hence my reliance on dating apps.

As for my hobbies, I’m a big fan of singing karaoke, playing board games and trivia. Yes, I’m aware that I am a bit of a walking stereotype. My Sunday (well, Saturday) nights are largely spent doing those things with friends. My friend group is reasonably gender-balanced compared to my workplace but there is, I feel, a cultural tendency within the group against asking out other members of the group; instead the vibe is that dating should be kept separate (and, it is implied, app-based) so as to avoid causing drama. In any case, I don’t think there are any currently-single women in the group.

Point well taken that I can and should get into shape. I do think that is the highest-marginal-return-to-attractiveness thing I could do right now, but I don’t see how that would meaningfully widen the top of the funnel. I suppose I might meet someone at the gym, but again, my read of the cultural milieu is that making passes at the gym is generally frowned upon (as always, rules 1 and 2 apply, etc. etc.). The thing is, I was already reasonably happy with my results on Hinge, so I don’t think lack of attractiveness is the biggest issue. My issue right now is that the pipeline has dried up.

and indeed it takes up the bulk of my day (~80 hours a week or so).

Oof, and you're considering pursuing a second degree on top of that? No offense, but that there might be a good chunk of your problem.

Anyway, your milage but in my experience Trivia and Karaoke are actually pretty good options for meeting people because you've got multiple "ice-breakers" built into the premise. "Hey, I'm flying solo tonight you mind if I join your team I got [subject covered]", "I've always loved that song", etc... The trick is to find a regular Event/Spot that has a decent distribution of Men and Women and make it part of your routine. Get to the point where you know the staff and they know you, so that you're not "just some creep on the prowl" you're "Mike the engineer, who does a really good Jon Bon Jovi". Networking isn't just for business.

I am pursuing a job, and indeed it takes up the bulk of my day (~80 hours a week or so). [...] (mid-late 20s highly-educated Asian-American women looking for a serious relationship/marriage) [...] singing karaoke, playing board games and trivia.

Do you expect the job to stay like that for a long period of time? Do you have any plan for what you will do if you do find someone?

It seems like the lack of slack in our day is both making it more difficult to pursue the sorts of social events where you might meet a woman, and also will be hard to manage if you do find a compatible woman, let alone one considering a serious relationship with the possibility of marriage.

The only women who will entertain a conversation in public with a stranger all have boyfriends and are desperate for attention. The ones who are single will say "Ihaveaboyfriend" as you open your mouth.

I've heard people in real life refer to dating apps as the only socially acceptable way to meet people, unless you're in a group of friends and they're in a group of friends, otherwise you're a creeper. Direct paraphrase. Mind you, I was also present for some uber-progressive woman making fun of dudes' pictures on Hinge, then saying that she'd never go on a Hinge date because she doesn't want to get assaulted. Someone asked her why she was on Hinge then, but by that point I had checked out of the conversation and that entire social circle.

I've heard people in real life refer to dating apps as the only socially acceptable way to meet people

Again, this is something I keep seeing people post online but I just don't see in the world around me. Part of me suspects some sort of coordinated psyop by the tech-bros who own shares in social media companies 'cause near as I can tell @100ProofTollBooth's got it right. There's never been a better time to just go outside and talk to girls.

Where do you actually meet women though? My hobbies are all men.

Pick a spot with a decent distribution and just go. Honestly @iprayiam3's suggestion isn't half bad.

Buy a very cute dog of a smart breed, and train him to, on a subtle cue, 'accidentally' get the leash tangled around a woman and her dog. Then take him to a crowded park / trail and troll for hotties.

That doesn't work either. The only time women engage with my cute dog in public is when I'm walking with a female friend, it's a night-and-day difference. Or if their boyfriend is around, then they'll engage with the dog.

In many of those extremely-addicting modern multiplayer games, it seems that in order for a beginner to be competitive with even other beginners (that is to say, not lose every single game), he has to spend quite a bit of time learning the “metagame”: the set of standard strategies widely used by players and the interactions between them. This learning process often takes the form of reading some wiki article that helpfully explains everything: if you have this playstyle, then you should use this character and use these skills at this point in the game; this can be countered by that character, who is in turn weak to some other strategy, yadda yadda yadda. These wiki articles are invaluable for newbies; reading them is the difference between having a shot of winning and getting steamrolled every game.

My question is regarding one of the most addicting, most important modern multiplayer games that there is. Here it is: is there any newbie guide to standard strategies for using dating apps (as a male)? I’ve finally resolved to take the plunge into the abyss (since even though I’ve always heard that they’re absolutely soul-crushing, I’ve realized that this is my only chance at this point for finding a 3D woman to date/marry), but I don’t want to make this dive without any equipment. If I’m gonna spend time (and self-esteem) swiping, then I should at least be smart about it, if I want to be competitive instead of yet another “0 messages in last 6 months” datapoint.

Of course, I already understand the basics, like

  • Be attractive.
  • Don’t be unattractive.
  • Have photos of yourself with friends.
  • If you are lucky enough to get a match, don’t just send “Hey”.

But this is more akin to the basic rules of the game (e.g. “use the arrow keys to move”, or even “your PC must have this much RAM to run the game”) than the higher-level strategy that I’m looking for. In particular, I’m looking for answers to questions like:

  • What does a good bio look like? Is “name+career+hobbies” too boring?
  • How funny should you be in your profile? What does good wit look like in this setting?
  • If you do by some Act of God get a match, then what does a good opener look like? Are the proverbial “Tinder jesters” that you see on Reddit going about this in the right way? Is it instead good to start with a question about any hobbies that she indicated on her profile? What if she doesn’t have any good hobbies?
  • Is there any way to select for “good girl” material on these apps?

I assume that millions of words have been written about this subject, and I also assume that 99.99% of them are pure garbage primarily intended to optimize SEO and get ad views. So I’ll instead ask a community which I understand to be pretty smart, and which I also understand (from lurking previous Wellness Wednesday threads) to contain some dating app connoisseurs as well. So for the sake of myself and any others in a similar situation: what’s the best way to do dating apps?

I apparently replied to the wrong person but here are my arrow keys.

Here is an extremely thorough guide that is very sex-focused, possibly more than you might want. But having some sexuality in your profiles seems like a good idea, and you can dial it up/down depending on what sort of women you're looking for. The guide's got 2023 edits in it so hopefully it's still relevant: https://killyourinnerloser.com/tinder-guide/

I found the messaging section quite useful - there are scripts to start off with where each message progresses towards a number and from there to a date.

It's unclear to me whether the paid features mark you as a "sucker" and the apps' algorithms try to keep you on the hook, or whether they work as advertised. Probably a bit of both. I know that if I don't open the apps for a few weeks Tinder starts offering premium subscriptions at a discount. Pretty sure that running out the daily swipe/like limits applies an Elo penalty if you do it too often.

Why are the example messages so full of typos and blandly-written? Is this how normies interact with each other?

Older millennials, maybe? Definitely not young people. And those screen shots look like they are at least 5 years old.

I'm an older millennial. My point is that when I actually get to see how normal people get dates, it frankly looks like two animals grunting at each other. Neither party bothers to do anything extra to convey their personality or say anything you wouldn't get out of a boring, lazily-made chatbot.

Beyond the basics its hard to give advice on gaming dating platforms, especially since I haven't used one in almost a decade. I used dating apps for 3 or 4 years, and ultimately I met my wife in person (and snubbed a potential online match to go hangout with my now wife on a sort of first date).

Dating is probably anti-intuitive in the same way that the stock market is. Once enough people figure out "this one weird trick" then it stops working because everyone else adjusts to it.

Some attempt at gaming advice:

  1. Pay-to-win. I would suggest that if you are well off you should be willing to spend money on dating apps or pay for a match-maker. Dating apps became a second full time job for me when I was using them, and that was only to achieve mediocre results of a date every other month or so. My time was more valuable than that, and I should have just shelled out some cash for better results.
  2. Keep Practicing. There is a point where researching how to win at the meta of a game will yield less results than just going and playing the game to get better. Human brains are generally designed to go and do stuff and then learn to do those things better. Cavemen didn't read treatises on how to hunt, they followed their fathers and older brothers out into the wild and hunted.
  3. Find good teammates. Learn from others. Have friends that are single and looking. Have friends that are no longer single. Having photos with friends is a good sign because having friends is a good thing.
  4. The pros do things for a reason. Don't just signal the nice things, remember to be the nice things. Being attractive is a sign of many things that one would want in a mate: personal hygiene, social awareness (fashion/clothes to make you look good), and personal health. Similar with having friends, or having money, or being happy.

So I've made a lot of headway into my local neighborhood. Next month, I'm set to join the board of my neighborhood organization. I'm replacing a member who has too many commitments. (Note: this neighborhood does not have an HOA, so membership is voluntary.) I'm also the volunteer webmaster, so thankfully I get to structure how our online real estate looks and feels.

My goals as a board member are twofold:

  • Provide good reasons to be a member.
  • Replace the membership that has dropped off in the past 10 years. We just built a bunch of apartment complexes; surely some of them are civic-minded enough to want to participate.

Out of curiosity: what would be some good reasons to join a group that reviews building permits, holds open meetings with bureaucrats and local elected officials, and serves cheap chicken dinners to dues-paying members?

Hell of a selling proposition, I know.

Better yet, what more would we need to do to make it worth leaving your residence on a Thursday night? Y'know, instead of being here on The Motte with you fine folk? 🙂

My goals as a board member are twofold:

  • Provide good reasons to be a member.

You alluded to this, but I'll make it more explicit. I'd split that point into two pieces:

1a) Provide valuable services to the members.

1b) Create effective rhetoric to persuade people to join.

Right now, it sounds like the valuable services you provide are: a) political/bureaucratic organization, and b) a social club. That's a small niche, and wouldn't be attractive to many people. I'm not sure if you could attract a substantial fraction of your neighbors without branching out into new activities.

I and another new member are well aware that the status quo is not attractive. I am probing the other board members to find out where their curiosities & passions are. They used to have tables at city-permitted events, but that dropped off years ago.

One thing I'm thinking of is using the speaker as a platform to reach out to people further down on the career pyramid. As an example, in April we'll be having the city's parking manager presenting. This could be useful for people working as traffic control, as valets, as meter maids, et cetera. We have local nonprofits literally training people off the street for these entry-level positions a mile away from our meeting location. This is a working class neighborhood, and this could attract those whose aspirations aren't yet smothered.

The intended message: "He started from the bottom, now he's here. You can learn from his example. We're capable of bringing in Top Guys. You want access? We make it happen." This can increase the range of speakers in the neighborhood beyond just civil servants and new arrivals.

This is just one example. There are more, but I'll wait for another time to add them.

Why did you join the org?

Other people might want to join for the same reasons as you.

If you can't think of a good reason why you joined then why not just leave the org and let other people handle it?

I joined because I bought a house in the neighborhood. I'm not from here, and this is probably the best I can do as far as what I can afford. (Six years later, I'm priced out of buying in this neighborhood. There's nowhere cheaper to move to within an hour's drive.) Might as well figure out how to help make where I'm at the best that it can be.

I once lived in an apartment complex that would have occasional events where you could have snacks and meet with the neighbors. It was a good way for people in the complex to meet others and socialize.

Maybe if you proposed an informal event that had food and games (yard/board) where the main purpose was getting to know your neighbors there would be some interest. There seems to be demand for this type of thing. People like to know their neighbors but need someone else to take initiative and come up with a reason for people to meet.

Then at this event you could briefly talk about the neighborhood org and also ask people if they have ideas for future events and would be interested in helping organize the next one.

ETA: If I was invited to an event where the main purpose was to get me to join an neighborhood org I would probably decline because that could lead to work and commitments that I'd prefer to avoid. It sounds like a ploy to get me to do unpaid work. However, if someone was organizing an event to meet the neighbors I'd be much more enthusiastic because that sounds casual and fun. Then if I was vibing with the neighbors at the casual event and someone brought up the neighborhood org I'd be much more inclined to help out with it.

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Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

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