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Oxytocin: Not Even Once!
I’m looking at breaking up with my girlfriend of 4 years and I could use a sanity check. Apologies for the length and I’ll try to keep it down, but I need to explain how the situation I now find myself in developed.
I’d normally run this kind of thing by a close friend, but because of where I live I’m kind of away from my support network, I don’t really have anyone close I’d trust to give good nuanced advice, and I feel like a bit of fool for reasons that should become apparent.
So I moved to a new city as a single man about 5 years ago for a job. I first stayed at airbnb’s, but eventually moved into a shared apartment where I met my now partner. She held the lease and interviewed me for the room. Me, her and another housemate became friends and she spent a fair bit of time introducing the city to me.
We were pretty open about the people we were dating. I wasn’t really attracted to her so it was pretty easy to keep her as a good friend. After a year or so during a dry patch I floated the idea of becoming ‘friends with benefits’ while we weren’t involved in serious relationships. I wasn’t that attracted to her, but I had needs so I’d rather look after that with someone I trusted. She rejected the idea and I didn’t push the issue. We moved on.
I eventually moved to another apartment to live alone, but we remained friends. She would occasionally come over to watch a movie or have a coffee and catch up, or we would go out somewhere or catch up with mutual friends.
Then COVID happened. We were living in a heavily locked down city, but there were allowances for single friends to visit other friends. She would spend a fair bit of time at my apartment as we’d become close friends by this time. This continued for months and then one day through the magic of alcohol we hooked up and she slept over. By the time COVID finished we were practically boyfriend/girlfriend, but we never defined things. At the time I still wanted to keep things casual because I knew I wasn’t really attracted to her even though we had pretty good compatibility in terms of personalities.
Due to inertia and I guess laziness I let the situation continue and found that I didn’t really have the motivation to date other people. Eventually we decided to move in together even though I stressed we might break up or date other people. She was fine with this and wanted to do it for practical and cost saving purposes.
So now its about 4 years since we first hooked up and we’re living together out in the suburbs. We’ve had talks about where we are going and even (minor) breakups over the years. I still have the feeling I’m not really attracted to her and we haven’t had sex in over a year. I kind of don’t want to not just because of the attraction, but that I already feel pair bonded and don’t want to make things worse. The feeling of pair bonding is what I’m struggling with. I genuinely don’t won’t to lose this girl from my life. I love her in a way, but I can’t get over the fact I’m not physically attracted to her.
There are other incompatibility issues largely due to it being and inter-racial relationship. She’s from a SE Asian nation, but is educated (Masters) and proficient in English. She sometimes acts crudely and breaches etiquette in some ways according to my WASP sensibilities. For example, she has overshared personal things about our relationship to friends, family and coworkers that has upset me but she insists its no big deal and is funny. I think a lot of these other things could be overcome with work on the relationship, but not the attraction issue.
But recently I’ve realized that if I don’t make any changes, nothing will change. She and I both want marriage and kids, but I don’t want that with her. The window for this for both of us is closing (late 30’s, early 40’s). So I brought all this up with her a couple of days ago and she didn’t take it well. She thinks I’ll regret this (and I feel like I might) and she regretted ‘wasting’ 4 years with me. We’re currently not talking for the last day or so, but we’ll eventually have to talk about all this.
I guess what I’m asking is for some reassurance. Lack of physical attraction is a deal breaker for marriage right? I feel like I’d regret things if I just got over myself and married her as my best friend. I’ve been turning this over in my mind for weeks, but can’t see another solution besides breaking up. I’m also kicking myself for allowing things to develop like this. COVID really allowed time for pair-bonding in a siloed environment and it snuck up on me. I really feel like shit about this whole thing, particularly about ending it.
.... ???? How's she ok with that? How are you ok with that? Sex is indispensable to a good relationship. Puritans would let you divorce if sex wasn't good!
If you aren't too unhappy with her as a person, and she with you.. just declare absolutely zero porn for the next two weeks etc and have some sex, then figure it out.
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I'll add my voice to the chorus of people telling you to break up right this instant. It wasn't a terrible mistake to sleep with her the first time, but what were you thinking moving in with her? Good lord your self-esteem must be in the toilet. Try to see if fucking the next girl will fix your problems.
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You preemptively disclaimed that you might break-up or date other people, and she handwaved it away. Well, now you’re at the bridge where you might break-up or date other people.
Not only was your disclaimer contained in the fine-print, it was the title slide in size 48 font. Her inability to manage her own expectations does not constitute an obligation on your part.
>guy I've been seeing on and off warns against living together in case we breakup
>I insist it's fine and that it's just for practical and cost considerations, so we move in together
>no sex for a year, but waiting for him to put a ring on it
>now he's talking about breaking up
>how could he do this to me?
Maybe things such as this could be overcome, maybe not. Maybe it’d be a lifetime of where, anytime you did something that was, in her eyes, cringe, clumsy, embarrassing, weak, or anytime you otherwise somehow fell short of being A Real Man, she runs to her friends, family, and coworkers to gossip about, shame, and mock you. Because it’s no big deal and is funny. You getting upset over it is just another thing for her to snicker over with her family and social circle.
Sunk cost. Better to rip off the band aid than let things fester more. She's not entitled to your commitment; you gotta do you and live your best life.
If for some reason you fear you’ll later feel some FOMO or one-itis, keep in mind you can at any moment book a flight to her home SEA country and date and bang chicks a decade or two younger than her, after which you’d hardly feel she were so unique, special, or essential anymore.
Attraction is not a choice. Plus, if it makes you feel better, the lack of attraction sounds bidirectional and always has been.
She was happy to keep you in the friendzone, but then COVID hit. Her dating options limited, one night omg-it-just-like-happened with you after the "magic of alcohol." Having coughed it up to you and with nothing to lose but the opportunity cost of time, and with her clock ticking in her mid-30s+, she thought “eh, he’ll do,” and let the inertia ensue. Who knows what she was doing during the times of your “(minor)" breakups.
You’re not even married and the bedroom’s already been dead for a year. Unless you plan on doing IVF or UberStorking a baby, sex is generally a prerequisite for the children you two want. And at her age, having a child the old-fashioned way could already be tough; two would be a reach. Marrying her could very well still mean zero kids.
The window is closing… <Bane Voice> for her. </Bane Voice>
If her window hasn’t closed already, that is. She saying you’ll regret this just sounds like projection, wishcasting, sour grapes, and sowing FUD.
Like you, she chose to spend these four years in this inertial state. It takes two to tango. She’s mad now that her settlement plan might fall through, that she might have to go into hurry-up offense to find a replacement, and she can’t manage the clock by calling time-outs, running pass plays only, running out of bounds, or spiking the football.
This was my favorite comment lol. Oneitis, not even once!
Yeah lol, SEA is the easiest place in the world to get laid if you are a white or off white. I had married women come up randomly, grind against me in raves whilst their husbands watched and no these were not sex workers. I never slept with one since I do not like asian girls but the stereotypes are true.
So fertility issues, a dead bedroom, loss of attraction, that is three strikes that are dealbreakers.
How can you have oneitis for a girl you're not attracted to? Makes no sense.
Sunk cost + neediness, in ops case sunk cost + proximity. Always default to "good" pua wisdom, not roosh but more like yareally, rsd. I was known as the oneitis guy here back in the day. It's a terrible situation if you are in it, the only way out is fixing your internal issues and having better cuter girls around.
Julien postulated that having a girl around adds meaning to your drab life, it is a way the brain can make existence meaningful. Kids get it for girls they have never spoken to.
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Break up asap dude, you continuing to hook up with a girl who you do not wish to date long term is where you messed up imo. Just break up and find another girl, you should be enthusiastic about girls you date seriously, do not let laziness determine your youth dating-wise.
Also, try hooking up with a few girls hotter than her, you would be alright, it is crass but is sane advice because it works for most.
Edit - you have not had sex in a year, have a oneitis, don't find her attractive, looming fertility issues. These are the biggest dealbreakers known to man. Dump her asap man. I cannot imagine having a girl and not having sex with her and only stopping due to time constraints. Good of you for posting this here, the feedback will help.
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Kinda late for it at this point, but it's honestly a deal breaker for even beginning to date someone for me. I would not enjoy having a partner that I didn't find attractive. I think if I found myself in your position I'd have an equally difficult time, but the answer is still what it is. I don't blame her for being frustrated and insulted by it, but that doesn't really mean it's going to improve.
I haven't actually heard you say why you feel you haven't had sex, explicitly anyway. Could you just choose to do it?
I feel like there is a significant range of attractiveness that isn't sufficient to be all that exciting from a strictly visual standpoint, but is entirely sufficient to want to sleep with someone you love.
I don't think it's as obvious as others seem to that not sleeping together for one year is immediately a problem. I would happily take the least attractive of my exs' bodies with my favorite ex's personality over the reverse.
This is what confuses me about this whole thread. I feel like if went through a year long dry spell I could, more-or-less, shag anything. Strong physical attraction would not at all be a requirement in that case. Assuming no drastic shift in libido on my part, no extreme physical deformities, not morbidly obese, no disturbing fetish stuff. Is it possible that the porn use is actually excessive, and it's killing the ability to perform when it's time to get it on IRL? It seems like it's too late now, but what would have happened if OP just initiated at month 6, then closed their eyes and though of "England"? Is that less healthy than relying on porn 100%?
Amen. Been there, shagged that.
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This kind of thing is what stalled my leaving earlier. I really enjoy her personality, but there's a small voice inside that says I'd regret staying in this relationship for life. I feel bad and keep wondering if I'm making a mistake because I enjoy her personality so much. Like if I was in my 60's I'd stay, but not in my 40's. I'm basically making do with porn to get my needs met. She's kind of accepting of that even though we haven't discussed it.
I think this would be a more compelling argument if you were in your 20s, or mayyyybe your 30s. Unless she's super hideous, I have to think you could enjoy fucking her. It sounds like you've done it enough times that revealed preferences say you like it plenty.
If you're super hot and expect to do really well on the dating market, and enjoy the idea of starting over with a new person, then...my advice is still "you're old, the ship sailed, make the best of it." But I guess it'd be more reasonable in that circumstance to try again, at least.
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If your only problem with her really is her body, then I'll go against the grain and suggest that you consider staying with her and practicing… limited monogamy or, well, monogamy as much of the world understands it.
This suggestion probably offends middle-class Anglo sensibilities, as they are really big on the whole "cheating is the absolute worst thing you can do to your partner" puritan morality (many people are saying that this and the fact that pretty much everyone on r/DeadBedrooms is from an Anglo country are somehow connected, but I guess We'll Just Never Know), as well as rationalist sensibilities that suggest always telling the Truth, circumstances be damned, but women with great personalities are in much shorter supply than those with great bodies, and you may indeed end up regretting your choice as you sift through Tinder trying to find someone tolerable, much less a woman whose personality you actually enjoy and can see yourself marrying. I think before you pull the trigger on the decision, it is important to at the very least honestly assess how likely you are, realistically, to find and attract someone who has both the looks and the personality, if that is something you value highly.
Chances are your partner will understand if you discretely get a side piece for your sexual needs (especially if she's from SEA, where it is largely tolerated, if not expected of married men), as long as you put your familial responsibilites first. Just don't do it in the retarded poly way, absolutely no one without severe autism and/or 5+ years of reading LW enjoys having their loved one announce "ok, honey, I'm gonna go bang a hot piece of ass that is 15 years your junior and has humongous tits, have a good night and see you tomorrow!", and arguably not even they do. She may even intuit that your weekly poker nights with the boys aren't necessarily about poker or spent with the boys – that's fine and in fact still very much preferable and less hurtful compared to just coming out and saying it.
Thanks for exploring this option. I probably won't go down this path, but its been niggling at the back of my mind and it deserves consideration. We did kind of discuss non-monogamy about a year ago and she subtly communicated she would tolerate the 'don't let me find out what you're doing and escorts only (eg no emotions)'.
I don't think I could do it because that's not the sort of marriage I want, even though its a pragmatic solution.
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Unless one or both of you:
This is game over, right off the bat. I don't even need to hear anything else about your relationship - I already know it's not working.
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It's over broski. Its only so many years you can hide this. One day it will rear it's head and that day won't be pretty for either of you.
Cut your losses short now. And don't repeat this mistake ever again.
How did they even get to last a year? I get pretty intense and if I don't have any orgasm for 1-2 months. How do you go a full year without going crazy?
Erm, I don't want to be that corvus but, well, having been in your shoes and then having gone without orgasm, sex, sexual activity, masturbation, etc. for over a year myself along with quite a few stretches of several months, I can say that in my case it was kinda like a mental and emotional switch that flipped inside my head. What was once the biological imperative is now a potentially interesting, but also potentially entangling option that I can choose to pursue, or, y'know, not.
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This feels like that day. I feel like I'm vomiting up something long suppressed and I feel pretty bad about it.
I will never ever EVER date a woman I don't find marriage material ever again. EVER! It's just not worth it.
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Seems like a breakup is overdue. Marriage without physical attraction in that age bracket seems pretty miserable - don't do it. Especially not out of habit. I know what I'm talking about.
FWIW, you made a pretty big mistake, but it takes two. As long as you didn't intentionally misdirect her, you can share the blame equally.
I'd be interested if you expand on this a bit. Like OP is early 40's and, uh GF?, is late 30's. At what point is it normal for sex drive to appreciably decline. Somehow I thought that 45 is early, but not supper early, for menopause to begin.
I would have thought that there are healthy marriages, where both people have taken good care of themselves and look good for their age, but neither is close to their objective peak physical attractiveness. Is the expectation that experience and comfort with self/partner makes up for not being as young and hot? That the attractiveness is found in the intimacy of knowing your partner so well.
Surely it's unreasonable to expect your partner to be as physically attractive, with respect to sexual intimacy, as she approaches 40 then when she was 24. What's reasonable to expect? Do you need like > 80% physically attraction relative to the hottest young thing, or just some irreducible quantum of attraction that you share with each other?
I've been with girls who have aged over time and it's been fine. The initial attraction stays and is kind of grandfathered in to the relationship. That isn't the case here. I wasn't really attracted to her physically to begin with.
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Horniness is best modeled as declining linearly from relationship debut. Like baseball pitcher velocity.
Is it?
Married 20 years this year, no real decline yet.
Yes, that's my opinion. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about how often you make love to your wife, or the raw hormonal horniness underlying it, especially as the two are both obviously separate and almost impossible to parse.
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That was actually a very helpful analogy. I think?
So in a healthy relationship, you might start the game throwing 96. Coach will leave you in in the 8th, throwing in the high 80s, so you can get the shutout. But in OPs case he's getting pulled in the third because he made the start hanging balls over the plate, and has loaded the bases with zero outs.
I think I still don't understand exactly what slope of decline is the normal range, but in this case I guess it doesn't matter because the starting intercept is zero.
Moreso a joke about aging curves in baseball.
A 22 year old Dominican flamethrower who sits at 96 and can reach for 100 in a big spot, at 28 he's probably sitting 93 and can still reach for 97 when he needs it, and at 33 his fastball is 90-91 and if he's serviceable at all it's by learning to rely on location and clever breaking balls to trick hitters rather than blowing by them with raw stuff. He might actually peak as a pitcher in quality at 27, when he's got the best mix of velocity and experience, and he might keep pitching to 35, but almost never will he add velocity in his career.
A 24 year old clever college lefty who debuts with a fastball that never breaks 92 and starts by relying on tricking hitters, at 32 he is going to be sitting at 86 and throwing batting practice. He started by sneaking by, and pretty soon there just isn't enough there to work with.
To return to relationships, if you meet your partner and start making love, you're never going to exceed the raw attraction and numbers you had then. There's no trick to it, you're just never going to be as horny for each other as you were then. The sex might get better over time in quality, but sheer desire will never exceed the start.
And if you started at fucking twice a day every day can't get enough of each other, then ten years down the road the decline will still keep you at a place where experience and tricks can carry you. Where if you started at "meh I guess if it's convenient" the decline quickly leaves you at zero. You're almost never going to add attraction during the course of the relationship.
Pretty much. I didn't find an increase in attraction, but the sex (when we had it) did get better due to comfort and experience.
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It's gender dependent, though highly variable. As a relationship ages, women tend to lose interest in sex more than men. That's why lesbian bed death happens.
Even at the beginning of a relationship, men tend to initiate sex most of the time. As the relationship goes on, this becomes more like all the time. Since OP isn't attracted to his partner, this is why the sex is zero.
Obviously, everyone is different and there's some small percent of women are who extremely horny. That presents other problems though.
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[Insert Performance Enhancing Drugs joke]
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I'm no biologist or doctor. I'm just pretty sure that 30s-40s is well within the region in which one can still expect a lot of sex to happen, under normal circumstance.
More generally, your partner and yourself will both age. Maybe the one ages more gracefully than the other thanks to superior genetics, in which case yeah, unless the difference is truly extreme it's just plain good sense to live with it if that's the whole of the problem. But obviously one's standards should adjust themselves with age and the passage of time.
What's unreasonable to expect is that your partner just lets herself go like a sack of potatoes and you tolerate it indefinitely.
This...probably doesn't provide much value to you as far as answers go, but it's close to everything I have to say on the subject.
She hasn't really let herself go. Small amount of weight gain, but nothing out of the ordinary. I just don't want to have sex with her. I can't blame her for that. I shouldn't be here in the first place.
"I'm getting 3 out of 10, elbows too pointy" vibes, unless there's a serious facial deformity involved.
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I didn't mean to imply as much. Sorry, I just piggybacked off of your topic to ride my hobby horse.
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Speaking as someone in that age bracket, I don't think the attractiveness of myself and my wife has changed dramatically from our mid-20s. We're both plainly older than we were a decade and a half ago, but just as slim and fit as ever, and with the added benefit of much better sartorial taste and the money to support it. I'm not saying there's no difference, but our attraction to each other and likely to others hasn't changed dramatically over the years.
I do think this is a basically reasonable expectation and as I've aged, I've become surprised by how willing other people are to become frumpy at such a young age and just chalk it up to age rather than their sedentary lifestyle and disinterest in style.
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Yes, it's a dealbreaker, but your friendship is over. You might like her, but from her perspective, you've been using her for sex to tide yourself over while leading her on with the impression you were in a relationship that was going somewhere, and she's not really wrong.
This is too harsh. OP was not using her. She has agency. And, of course, the time to have kids is way before age 38.
She has agency, but so does anyone being deceived or misled.
I never deceived her and she tells me that I've been clear about not wanting a serious relationship with her from the beginning. She told me she hoped that I would change my mind when I raised all this with her a few days ago.
I'll agree there's a certain sub-communication to agreeing to move in with someone that I'll have to wear.
I'll tell ya that you can be right, but I wouldn't hang your hat on it.
The difference between guys who have a "piece of shit" reputation and those who don't is that the latter are better at figuring out when women, for some reason or the other, are not acting in their best interests when it comes to the relationship.
You can be banging a woman you see no future with, she'll be down all the time, but her friends will let you know she needs commitment or bust.
I've been in shoes much like yours. I've broken up with people I'm really into, that I sent mixed signals to, but it wasn't a permanent thing. Better late than never - and y'all should definitely formally break up.
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I don't think you had nefarious intentions, but yeah, the communication was not good and you let her believe what she wanted to believe and to some degree I think you had to know what she was hoping for. People will say that's on her, and that's also true, which is why being straightforward is pretty important. People shouldn't fool themselves, and they also shouldn't let other people fool themselves (not if you want to feel like you were being above board about the whole thing).
I don't think you're a bad guy here,.but I doubt the situation, or your friendship, is salvageable.
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Things have evolved far beyond sex. It's emotions now, with no sex involved. I wouldn't have believed that you could partner with someone so closely without sex unless I had experienced it.
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