This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think a big part of it is that it galvanized the right, and it has been recruiting and motivating gold for republicans. Trans kids hits a lot of very sensitive spots, and it’s easy to understand why. First of all, you have the schools not only promoting, but enabling the trans kids. A kid who goes to a public school will be told that trans people are special, be told to celebrate them, etc. any kid who decides they might be trans will be given access to trans clothing, be allowed to change their name and pronouns, be allowed in cross gender spaces and sports teams, etc. the kids around them will be told how awesome they are, and be forced to acknowledge the new them. Parents are told none of this.
This first part alone is going to give a lot of parents the ick. They don’t trust schools anymore because the schools — by written policy — are keeping very serious matters secret from them specifically. They don’t like it when schools are teaching things that their religious beliefs call evil or wicked as normal and even praiseworthy. They would also eventually become concerned simply because the schools are much better at teaching state propaganda than they are at teaching reading, writing, math, and science.
The second part is that the transition itself harms kids. They’re starting kids on puberty blockers at 9-12 years old, and cross sex hormones follow after a few years. There’s the surgeries that remove or reposition healthy tissues on healthy bodies to fit a trendy mental health issue. And these things are driven by children the same kids who can’t remember to bring home their math book, or won’t eat vegetables, or can’t work up the courage to quit the baseball team. They simply are not mature enough to even grapple with the idea that what they’re doing toady will be something they will be living with at 40 or 60 or 80. They can’t even imagine what it’s like to really be an adult.
Finally, parents especially in cases of divorce are finding themselves threatened by the state if they don’t transition their kids. There are cases where a father and mother are fighting over custody and the judge will say “if you don’t allow your child to be transitioned, then you lose custody and visitation rights.” CPS has gotten involved in some liberal states because the child think they’re trans and the parents don’t agree, so the state comes in and says either get on board, or we take the child.
Now all of this creates fertile ground for GOP/MAGA recruiting. They are the party that will protect your kids from all of this. They are the ones who want the schools to stop teaching kids that trans is cool. They are the party that wants to force schools to actually tell you what your child is up to in school. They also are the party standing up to surgeons who want to medically and surgically transition your kids.
It's hard to think of a more toxic ideology if one actively wanted to turn off parents.
Maybe some sort of justification for tutelary pedophilia, I don't know
More options
Context Copy link
That last bit is what really got me to break my cautious neutrality on this issue. It is absolutely bad enough what Public schools do to kids normally but if they are allowed to press political ideals into their brains and work to influence their actual psychological development without parents involved, it looks extremely dystopic. "The state will shepherd your kid through the psychological turmoil of puberty without your involvement" is a bone-chilling statement.
If I were a parent (I am not) I would insist that it is NONNEGOTIABLE that I be informed of any medical or psychological issues my child exhibits. I would flip tables if the teachers were allowed to actively engage with my kids regarding their sexuality without me being in the loop, full stop.
The argument against 'parental notice' as the standard is simply too weak. "What if the child is hiding their identity because of abuse/risk of abuse at home?" Then figure that out and call fucking Child Protective Services. I am going with the assumption that the parent is inherently more invested in the child's wellbeing than a teacher. Many teachers don't even have kids of their own, why in the hell would they be expected to want and know exactly what is best for others' children?
And as we've seen, the inevitable ratchet on this process is that it will eventually gets defined as child abuse to deny a child's gender identity. In that scenario we now have a situation where a teacher can 'induce' the very condition that can then be used to take the child from their parents. The teacher convinces the child to express a trans identity, and if the parent finds out and is skeptical, teacher gets to report the abuse too.
Sorry, bridge too far for me, I don't care what other justifications you can contrive for it, even if you argue that its such a rare situation I shouldn't worry, the consequences are far too grave for me to ignore.
Now, I live in Florida, and since Desantis took some pre-emptive steps to prevent these sorts of outcomes, I'm not too worried about it happening to me. But yeah, the GOP managed a propaganda coup by centering this issue and more or less forcing the Progressives to defend it and, as it seems, retreat from it a bit.
To paraphrase the attitudes of various teachers and administrators my mother had to deal with over the course of my public school education: because while any two fertile, horny morons of opposite sexes can have a kid — they don't even have to get a license or take a class first — educators are trained professionals with the credentials to prove they know what's good for kids better than the kids' non-credentialed parents.
In short: I (the teacher) have a degree in Education and you (the parent) don't, therefore I always automatically know better than you when it comes to your own kid.
Yes, the "we're trained experts thing" seems to be the main thrust. Nevermind the abysmal results we can see.
But I don't think they can ever override the fact that a parent is biologically inclined to want the best for their kid. No way to explain why the teachers are somehow willing to advocate nearly as strongly for the interests of a child that isn't theirs than the ones who birthed the child and will spend immense amount of resources raising it.
OBVIOUSLY this doesn't mean parents 'always know best.' I'm just saying that's a presumption that is difficult to rebut without specifically examining their behavior. The odds of the teachers, in aggregate, feeling as strong a loyalty to the kid as the parents do is very low.
Sure they can- just point guns at them. The self-preservation instinct in the parent can be successfully leveraged in this way, which is part of why there’s no effective resistance to the faction who believes themselves the True Parents.
Let's look at the moral math on that: "If the state kills/jails/bankrupts me and takes my kids, my courage has no protective effect. Only if I survive/am free/am financially capable can I continue to protect my kids. Therefore I will appear to acquiesce but plan to renew the fight."
Never underestimate the lengths a parent will go to. Thousands of years of evolution in societies has ensured that humans will fight every arm of the state in every way possible to ensure that their kids are safe.
Their track record over the last 40 years has been an uninterrupted string of defeats- parental rights are a vanishing shadow of what they were 60 years ago (to the point they're fighting, and losing, the battle over having their children seized for wrongthinking parents when it comes to trans ideology; they'll already be prosecuted for having their 12 year old walk half a block, and they fucking welcomed that outcome in the '80s).
I think an assumption that they're trying not to lose everything is even less complimentary than assuming they're just too busy. They're similar to traditional-type conservatives in that regard, just like how they're a dying breed (since some of the calculus is "well, is the risk the State will seize my children worth having them?").
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I live in a blue county in a blue state. I am a father. My kid is in private school in order to dodge the worst excesses of public schools. There's no secret transitioning at my kid's school. Also class sizes are smaller and the academic standards are higher.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I agree with the points of your post. It being a drag is probably a huge part of the shift. Can I get a citation for this:
I think I first posted such a case 5 or 6 years ago. Shit maybe it was 8 years ago? It was the first one I knew of. Everyone at the time just hand waved it away. The "child" was 17, and was moved to her Grandparents who were willing to "affirm" the child's identity. By the time the article was written, and the court cases over, the child was 18 or 19 rending it all moot. The fact that a massive violation of parental rights had occurred, and that those parents had now permanently lost their child was viewed as not being a problem at all since the whole thing had been accomplished fait accompli.
Since then it's been a steady drumbeat.
Here are some more.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/school-hid-teens-gender-transition-from-parents-leading-runaway-abuse-nightmare-lawsuit
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/21/court-upholds-removal-of-child-from-parents-related-to-childs-transgender-identity/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dc-family-loses-custody-of-autistic-son-over-gender-transition-fight/ar-BB1qJeZT
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/montana-parents-say-they-lost-custody-of-daughter-after-opposing-14-year-old-s-gender-transition-report/ar-BB1hwjcE
I could keep going. It is happening. Please don't say it's great.
It is good when abusive parents lose custody of the children they are abusing.
Cutting off your child's penis or breasts is the abuse. Declining to do so is not abusing them.
In fact if your child had cancer in their penis or breasts then not cutting them off may very well be abuse.
Quibble accepted. Cutting off penis or breasts except in cases of necessary removal due to gangrene or cancer.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Define abuse. And I think honestly this is a thing where people are going to stop trusting the state even more, because here, it’s obviously political. The parents don’t agree that the child has trans, so they aren’t affirming. But this isn’t abuse, and further, given that this is a situation that can be induced, it’s an excellent weapon against the wrong sorts of parents raising kids.
Is it also political when the state wants to give children blood transfusions and parents object?
Seems like it might be, if the blood transfusions were for treating a psychological condition, and the supporting science was sketchy at best.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Who decides what counts as abuse?
The state, obviously. They're the ones who pass the laws defining abuse!
It’s great that Texas is removing children from parents who encourage and allow gender transition. The law is very clear that it’s abuse.
Yes.chad
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Taken together, your two statements would seem to indicate that you believe anything the state does is good by definition.
Obv.
So your position is essentially Tutto nello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
So I take it you'll also cheer the state taking away children from affirming parents?
Ya.
This, this and this is annoying and rhymes with rolling. Knock it off.
More options
Context Copy link
Well, I gotta applaud the consistency of taking away kids from their parents for transitioning them, because it's child abuse, and for not transitioning them, because it's child abuse.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link