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Correct if I am incorrect, but don't democrats deny any right to the father of child and the family of the mother to determine if it should live or die? Because if neither her husband nor her family should have any say, the "home" part is deceitful. Only the "heart" (of the mother) decides.
Is this referring to Trump? He owned hotels, casinos, of which visitors could be called clients.
A bit off-topic, but I read today about the political system if Bosnia and Herzegovina. The country has three main ethniticies: Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs, all are subethnicities of Slavs, each has an associated religion, and all speak basically the same language. The country is divided into Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina where the Croats and Bosniaks live, and the Srpska Republic inhabited by Serbs. Since the divisions run deep and none of ethnic groups trusts any other to not ethincally cleanse them, the bodies where power is allocated by election are subordinate to a neutral third party: Office of the High Representative (OHR) or unoffically Viceroy of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Such a solution for a territory deemed to be too "primitive" for self-rule wasn't invented in Dayton, Ohio, but follows in the tradition of "Mandates" dating back to the League of Nations.
Perhaps a similar solution could be adopted in Palestinian Territories: P5+regional islamic powers+EU+Israel each send representative to Steering Board, which elects a viceroy. He would be given a range of powers and would tasked to make sure violent extremists do not gain power, and to slowly accustom Palestinians to a free and democratic society.
How does differ from a just a military occupation? Under the OHR system the natives make the vast majority of political decisions and OHR only intervenes if he senses danger to the peace treaty (in BiH's Dayton Agreement), while under military occupation (as practised by Americans, not as defined in international law) not even this fig leaf is required: any organization can be freely dissolved, destroyed, or altered, any person killed, imprisoned, or impoverished with no justification needed.
While the Bosnian and Second World wars both saw brutality, Germans in the war just prior to the one which earned them the occupation (WWI) behaved in a honourable and admirable manner, while South Slavs in the war just prior to the one which earned them the occupation (WWII) commited many atrocities, even against each other. So by this criterion by which one could determine how civilized populations are, Palestinians of the pre 10-7 era are closer to the South Slavs of WWII, than Germans of WWI, in their want to seeing people die.
So the role the foreigners play should reflect this similarity: because the Palestinians are seemingly crueler in general, the regime should be hands-off.
OHR will never work on Palestinans alone. As long as Israel can take actions unilaterally, they will do something stupid that will make Palestinians erupt in another intifada.
Like all that shit they pulled in Gaza in September of last year?
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The assumption is that the decision to abort is a discussion between the involved parties (mainly, the prospective mother and father). Legally, the woman has final say, but in any remotely healthy relationship, one would assume that she does not just make the decision without any input or consideration for her partner's opinion. I think most men would be pretty upset (and probably consider it a relationship-ender) if their girlfriend or wife said "I'm pregnant and I'm going to abort, don't bother telling me what you think because you don't get a say." Even if he's pro-choice, and probably even if he would be in favor of aborting in the situation also! That's just not the sort of decision that people in an actual partnership make unilaterally.
I emphasize again: in a healthy relationship. Harris isn't talking about either the abusive ones that the left likes to bring up or the she-demons who LOL at their exes on their way to the abortion clinic that the right (probably thinks exist in larger numbers than they do).
That being the case, that only one person has the deciding vote under the law doesn't make it "deceitful" to argue that for most people it is a decision of "heart and home."
Have you read about the history of Palestine? That's not too far from what the British originally tried to do with Mandatory Palestine (albeit with less finesse or consideration for anyone there, since the British had no love for either Jews or Arabs and basically wanted to wash their hands of the whole matter).
So did the Japanese. Before the invasion of China and WWII, the Japanese were known for being exemplary in their treatment of civilians and POWs. Things can change a lot in a decade or two.
Right but the people who want me to accept this would never characterize it that way.
Not sure what you mean. The person I was responding to is complaining that the DNC characterized it that way.
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The right wing narrative about women seeking abortions is either ‘sluts who don’t know who the baby daddy is’ or ‘deadbeat/abusive boyfriend doesn’t want to be a dad and strong armed the woman’.
I will agree with you that the she demons are probably not very common, but they aren’t very common in the right wing narrative either.
I've seen little to no discussion of the women who get abortions on the right in the last 20 years. The whole discussion is around the baby and how its right to be alive trumps any other possible consideration. The sluts thing is all mental models erected by the pro-life crowd and probably memed about by some greentexters.
I mean, yes, almost always having sex that leads to an abortion itself was a fundamentally foolish act. And I've seen enough of the men in the criminal justice system who are adjacent to the communities where abortion is most in demand, sex with any of those fellas is a deep form of self hate/sabotage, but this is all stuff that is taboo to discuss, not something you see at National Review.
In my tiny part of the right, at least, there is still discussion of the women who get abortions. But it's not calling them sluts, it's usually calling them HR harpies who find making useless PowerPoints for $60k a year more fulfilling than motherhood. Or generally other attacks along those lines of enjoying meanginless careers, or vapid and empty lifestyles, more than motherhood.
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What if only men would legally allowed to make some type of a decision, and their wives would be only allowed to argue against them and threaten with divorce (a no-fault divirce at that, as abortion of a child the father wants alive isn't, according to (my understanding of values of) democrats, grounds-for-divorce), would democrats call such decisions as anything other than solely his own? Because feminists like to poont to past such laws as example of the patriarchy and consider women in such cases completely powerless. Like the "women weren't allowed to open a bank account" (but they were allowed to talk to their husbands how money should be spent). Or suffrage: woman talking to her husband about her political ideals wasn't illegal, but because she wasn't issued a ballot, feminist consider the husbands vote as representative solely of his values and the woman disempoweted.
Yes. It's harder to think of an example of a decision that "only a man can make," for reasons of biology, but one that comes to mind is getting a vasectomy. A man can absolutely get a vasectomy without his partner's approval or knowledge, but a lot of women would consider doing so without consulting her (especially if she wants children) to be a deal-breaker. And it would be a dick (heh) move to do that without talking to your partner.
More generally, making any kind of huge financial or life decision ("I am going to quit my job," "I just bought a new Cybertruck," etc.) is the sort of thing you can legally do but most people would agree is a shitty thing to do unilaterally. And those sorts of decisions are mostly made by men.
Most people probably understood that a wife was probably going to have some influence on her husband, but it was also understood that a husband could and would vote however he wanted without consulting his wife.
I'd love to see a source for this. A quick Google isn't bringing up anything reliable either way for me ... though some of the questionable sources are amusing:
It seems that in married households both genders believe, in supermajority poll results, that they had the most influence over car purchase decisions.
A lot of feminist sources are happy to report that women make a supermajority or an overwhelming majority of car purchase decisions, not because equality means we must fight the matriarchy now, but because this implies we need to hire way more women as auto executives.
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I think this is a good description of the story the modern blue tribe tells about itself, and if it were true to form I'd probably have less of a bone to pick with that side of the isle's treatment of my sex. But like many autobiographies, it gives itself too much credit.
I think you'll find that in practice, very little scorn is offered to wives who decide for themselves that having another baby is "right for her", and very little lenience to husbands who aren't prepared to quickly get with that program.
From what I have seen, most normal people believe all such decisions should be mutual, while very tribalized people always tell a narrative that emphasizes the most selfish and abusive individual stories from the other side while claiming that the selfish and abusive cases on their side are exaggerated. Thus conservatives emphasize selfish women making childbirth choices without giving their partner any say, and claiming that men actually being controlling and abusive is just a story women tell themselves. While leftists emphasize women in controlling and abusive situations and imply women lack agency or responsibility for anything, while excusing truly selfish and irresponsible behavior by women.
"This should be a joint decision, but the person whose body is at issue has the final vote if they can't reach an agreement" is where we are at.
I understand what is supposed to happen. My concern is what happens when something goes wrong.
Blue tribe is happy to hand wave away men's vulnerability to women's overwhelming reproductive power as "biological" in origin. I am unsure how biology writes our laws in any sense other than the most reductive and worthless—but on the other hand, I am not opposed to the implementation of cultural protections in lieu of legal ones where the latter may be too unwieldy. Blues would insist that any legal protection for men is impossible to practically implement. I may mostly disagree, but I can see how it might be hard to implement within a marriage context. Cultural protections may be appropriate here.
The problem is that this form of protection isn't offered to men by blue tribe in nearly enough volume to justify the power differential. Blue tribe culture may be willing to condemn reproductive coercion of men by women as being kinda mean, and wag a finger at women who do it, but that isn't nearly enough, and proves that blues don't really care about this abuse of power.
If we're taking this seriously, reproductive coercion of men by women really ought to be considered at a similar level of transgression as infidelity. This is a good example of a love crime that we do actually take quite seriously, and offer serious cultural protection against in lieu of legal protection. If we were to apply this kind of protection as a safeguard against women's reproductive power, things would look very, very different. It would look like blue tribe looking at a sobbing woman whose husband left her because she tried forcing another baby on him dead in the face, and, shedding no pity whatsoever, assuring her that all this ruin is only what she wrought upon herself. It would look like, in the other timeline, blue tribe lionizing a husband as downright saintly for finding it in himself to forgive this kind of transgression, given to an individual wholly undeserving of mercy, even if the true intended beneficiaries are the children.
But in the current blue milieu, unexpected babies in marriage are something that just kinda happen. Like, it's a little bad if the woman is being deceptive, but comon dude, shit happens. You need to move on and focus on making room for the new kid. I don't even want to know how much of the asshole he would be if he up and left due to this betrayal. Sticking around is simply being a decent human being and awards no cookies.
Again, I'd have less of a bone to pick with Blue Culture if the protections it claims to offer to men were real, but as it stands right now calling it a fig leaf would be offering too much credit.
I don't think people do actually have much sympathy for a woman whose partner leaves her because she wants a(nother) child and he doesn't. It's just an unfortunate irreconcilable difference.
(I also don't think husbands leaving their wives because they don't want any more children is very common.)
He's still financially responsible for any children he produces, though. That's an ever-present potential consequence of having sex that both parties have to live with.
Let's keep things in scope and specify that this is happening within an otherwise stable marriage and there's an unexpected pregnancy. If you're still willing to assert this, I'm open to reviewing evidence, but as it stands I'm believing my own eyes.
I'd like to point out that men don't produce children, but I realize that the definition of "producing" always shuffles around based on who and whom. When it's calculating who bears the most bodily cost and therefore who ought to have the say, she's doing the producing. When it comes to who pays, well it bears his genes so it's 50-50. (Even if he said no to the sex, because why not.)
It's a risk for one party, but a choice for the other. I will continue to point this out until I am blue in the face, shouting into the abyss, probably until the day I die.
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Getting vasectomy doesn't mean your wife cannot get pregnant, she still can, just from another man.
Adding to ControlsFreak's comment: In some countries, men cannot get vasectomy unless they already have children (2 in case of Russia), this requires women.
Well yes, and in some countries women cannot get abortions.
We're not talking about Afghanistan here. ...France had blanket ban on vasectomy till 2001.
Okay? What's your point? I am aware other countries are more restrictive than the US.
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This was not always true. I personally know a couple where the wife had to sign paperwork in order for her husband to legally get a vasectomy.
Society really used to treat marriage differently than we do today.
In the US? What state? Genuinely curious, because I have never heard of this. I've heard of doctors refusing to sterilize young people requesting it, claiming they might change their minds later, but I have never heard of a spouse needing to give permission.
I don't know what state they were in at the time. I knew them well after the deed was done, but she said that she definitely had to sign. I'm maybe a little less confident now that it was a legal requirement rather than doctor-driven, but I can't really tell. Search is broken in 2024, especially when looking for good history. ChatGPT seems to think some states had such laws into the ~60s/70s (and its suggestions would jive with my guess of where my friends probably lived back in the day). Maybe it's hallucinations all the way down...
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A quick search tells me it's not (and hasn't been) legally mandated in the US, but a lot of doctors will require it anyway (which may itself be a HIPAA violation).
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And a woman can have her tubes tied without her husbands consent. So here women and men have equal rights, but with abortion what is destroyed is inherently a product of two people, unlike fallopian tubes or vas deferens. A woman who never interacted with a man has nothing to abort, but she has fallopian tube.
Abortion:
Woman: legally allowed to make a decision on her own
Man: legally allowed to argue
Quitting a job/buying a car:
Woman: legally allowed to make a decision on her own
Man: legally allowed to make a decision on his own
I fail to see the parallel.
Yes, when women couldn't vote this was realized, but I am talking about today. Of contemporary political affiliations, only anti-suffragists (Edit: and those who hand around them) are familiar with the argument that women had political power, even if the vote was denied to them.
Edit: As spaces have increasingly clamped down on rightists deviations, it is increasingly unlikely for normies to have heard this.
So? Men can't get pregnant. This is not a convincing argument unless you're pro-life, in which case "It's not fair that the woman has the deciding vote" is not your actual objection. If you object to abortion on principle, that's fine - we don't agree, but you'd still be against abortion even if we made it a law that the mother and father both have to agree to it. If you'd be pro-choice if the father gets a veto, that would be interesting. Is that your position?
No, this isn't some secret knowledge that women, even in highly patriarchal and oppressive societies, have always been able to influence their husbands.
I don't think even Amanda Marcotte believes that women had literally zero influence or agency prior to the 19th Amendment. The argument is that having some "influence" exactly to the degree that your husband allows it isn't the same as having autonomy. If your argument is that women shouldn't have autonomy, fine, I understand that argument. But not being able to vote in a democracy is absolutely a lack of autonomy.
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From the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women:
If a woman can unilaterally decide to abort or carry her baby to term, can men truly be said to have the same right to "to decide freely and responsibly on the number and spacing of their children" if all he can do is try to persuade her?
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Not really the only thing. A man can radically alter his body's appearance by going to the gym a lot and lifting the right way in a way a woman cannot. He can hulk out.
They are? Poor financial decisions are not the sole domain of any sex, but the cluster is on the other side of the aisle AFAIK.
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Is there a simple explanation of why the Japanese changed so much in this regard over such a short time period?
A simple one? No. The shortest explanation I can give is that from the end of the 19th century to the beginning of the 20th, the Japanese imitated the West, tried to do a speed-run to a modern industrial society, and adopted many Western norms. They admired the West and basically wanted respectability and to be treated as equals. So they tried to do all the right things and be seen as fellow (honorary) Westerners.
The realization that that wasn't going to happen (even after they fought on the side of the Allies in World War I) was one of many things that led to Japan becoming increasingly militarized and xenophobic.
This is a huge simplification, of course - it isn't like Japan didn't already have a history of being very militant, and aggressive with their neighbors. And a lot of other things happened between the Meiji Restoration and the Showa Era. But for a while they were trying to play by the West's rules.
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Yes. I didn't say that I agree with the substance! It's good speechwriting though. The reality is that Harris has never had a client, never had a single person that willingly purchased anything that she's ever created. Neither has Walz, for that matter, which is an interesting fact about the ticket. The spin is that her clients were the people as where Trump is just purely self-serving. This is a good rhetorical defense, in my book.
Well I think it is more than rhetoric. I think it is an insight to their psyche. They think men of commerce are greedy me first people who therefore need to be crushed by the state to get them to do the right thing. But you can’t do well in commerce unless you care a helluva about your customers. Crushing state regulations make it harder to serve your client.
If corporations would stop proving this time and time again, people might stop thinking this way.
As opposed to the state actors who are selfless paragons of virtue and love for mankind?
By and large, you get ahead by serving your client. If you don’t, you don’t get ahead in business.
Sometimes it involved concincing client to pay for what they don't need. I visited a Samsung shop week ago and asked whether there is a phone with plastic instead of glass, because i don't want it to be smashed. The director said "if you dropped your phone, it's because of klutziness, and klutziness has a price tag". Do you think this person would get fired?
Would they? No. How did you react? Does it have a negative on your interaction with that business?
I did nothing. Did not even send 1-star review.
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True, but "the only client he's ever had is himself" is an artful way of describing someone who is pathologically selfish and doesn't care about others. My understanding is that Trump has been involved in multiple fraudulent business ventures, which ties into this.
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