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Dark day. There will be nothing more destabilizing for democracy and American government than making every president a Caesar who either crosses the Rubicon or dies in jail.
Trump will win on appeal and this case is such nonsense it will boost his election prospects. But the precedent is set and we will reap it someday.
Why would a Democrat president need to worry about "dying in jail" under his Democrat successor? And you won't have to worry about a Republican president becoming a Caesar to avoid that fate when there's never going to be another Republican president.
Permanent Dem rule is here. There is no lawful, nor even non-violent, path left for Red Tribe. And I've expressed my doubts about the effectiveness of violent measures, so, once again, I conclude we're doomed.
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How will he win on appeal? The NY courts are against him (or they would have stopped a lot of this stuff with interlocutory appeals) and there's no substantial Federal question.
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It seems to me that it is better to set a precedent that criminals get convicted of crimes over a precedent that politicians cannot be convicted of crimes.
American politicians get convicted of crimes all the time. Convicting governors is my home state's official pastime. Convicting Trump is not a red line except in the eyes of Trumpists.
Probably not a bad time for a gut check about if you have similar feelings toward the "Trumpists" as the Spaniards did toward people who thought Franco wasn't an asshole for trying to stop the communists from taking over
Just sayin
Can you clarify what you mean? I don't really see the connection between Trump's crimes and the Spanish Civil War.
You bet, that is not unsurprising, and was kind of my point
You stated blandly that 'convicting governors' was your 'home state's official pastime'
Okay? Even in America which is the best country ever, most things have still kind of sucked most of the time. Governors are corrupt. Elections get stolen. Stuff happens
But there's a difference between those 'normal' things and taking the president to Rikers Island in chains to be strip searched. At some point, sometimes, someone does go too far and break the norms. And even though things have always kind of sucked most of the time, that destruction of norms can sometimes introduce profound change to an otherwise stable environment. And you get something like the Spanish Civil War
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But isn’t it worse when innocent politicians are convicted of political crimes?
Trump was convicted by a jury of our peers. I trust their judgment. He's guilty.
He's a guilty politician convicted of a crime. A felony.
He's a convicted felon.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Ok, you let twelve people from Manhattan do your thinking for you. What's your point?
Make it less personal and less condescending, please.
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OJ Simpson was exonerated by a jury of our peers. I trust their judgment. He's not guilty.
Even if the case of OJ Simpson was a mistake, that does not mean that Trump's conviction is a mistake. This is Simpson's Paradox.
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This is a very narrow appreciation of the case and zero appreciation of the context.
Prosecutorial discretion is employed literally everyday in America. And it is up and down the socioeconomic chain and goes left and right. In Baltimore, they sometimes decide not to prosecute multiple felons on gun charges because ... racism or something. When it comes to campaign finance laws, as I understand it, it's close to impossible to run a national level campaign without accidentally breaking the laws a few times - which is why these are almost always handled by the FEC with, at most, fines and public disclosures.
Alvin Bragg wanted to shoot his shot with this case and he did. As @jeroboam said, no one believes this case would've been brought against any other politician besides Trump.
So, while what happened inside the narrow walls of the courtroom may be all on the up and up (which, right now, I believe more than I doubt) ... and while a good deal of blame here should be on Trump's defense team for going full retard ... the facts are that targeted prosecutorial discretion brought a case into a courtroom that would've never made it off a legal pad in any other context. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Mr. Shapiro.
It's rare to see someone run afoul of the building consensus rule, but "no one believes..." is a clear example.
You're otherwise being reasonably level-headed, so I'll simply request--please don't make a habit of it.
Mods gonna mod, so I'm not mad about that.
But, is this selective enforcement?
Here's the post that I cited that uses the same language: https://www.themotte.org/post/1019/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/217119?context=8#context
Probably because I saw your post and reported it but did not notice or report the other post.
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Sorry, I didn't realize you were directly quoting.
I'm not seeing any reports for @jeroboam's version, so either it was cleared by another mod, or it never came to our attention. Either way, the request applies to him.
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Mod fail. Nobody’s perfect.
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The judge allowed testimony (Cohen’s plea deal) heavily prejudicial to Trump because the prosecution wanted to impeach its own witness (sure Jan) but wouldn’t allow Trump to introduce evidence that the DOJ and FEC looked at the alleged violation and passed. That seems on the up and up?
Or how there is literally no evidence that Trump was even thinking about the so called predicate literally none in evidence. Which means there should’ve been a directed verdict.
You seem to have more detailed awareness of the case, I'll admit that.
I'd like to point out I think we're on the same side, my guy.
Yes we are. My background is in law (though not litigation let alone criminal) so this has interested me greatly. Couple that with time on my hands due to paternity leave…I’ve gotten obsessive.
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I believe this case would have been brought against other politicians besides Trump. A very similar case was brought against John Edwards. That case failed to secure a conviction, but it was nonetheless brought.
Unfortunately, I think citing the Edwards case proves my point ... it is very similar to the Trump case for a lot of not good reasons
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And this insane "history rhymes" banger:
It disproves your claim that the case would not have been brought except against Trump, which is the claim I was contesting.
No. The Edwards case became infamous meaning it would not again be brought because it was an embarrassment.
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While it does disprove that claim in the isolated sense of "no other politician" .... it does so with a case that probably should not have been brought against Edwards and that he beat.
You're correct in a very specific way, but zooming out ... you're correct for reasons that circularly point back to my assertion.
I'm not trying to "win" this argument at this point. I'm trying to highlight that shitty politically motivated trials ... have always been shitty politically motivated trials.
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That sounds like a just-so story brought by someone who is sad that their felon got convicted.
Stop posting low effort comments like this. I'm actually happy to see someone defending the verdict and pushing back on what's clearly a dominant opinion here (this is completely orthogonal to what I personally think of the verdict) and it's unfortunate that the only pushback is coming from someone whose responses can mostly be summarized as "Neener neener."
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He said as he was made to kneel and shot in the back of the head by one of the roving gangs who have dominated public life for most of human history because men have realized again that attempting to succeed by 'following the rules' amidst anarcho-tyranny is fruitless
Courtesy
Bruh moment - I will just say the same thing again
Roving gangs have dominated public life for most of human history.
This is likely to be the case again, as men realize that attempting to succeed by 'following the rules' amidst anarcho-tyranny is fruitless.
Attempting to succeed by 'following the rules' is obviously fruitless because one of the most powerful, richest, successful, handsome, men on the planet was just convicted of 34 made-up felonies in a 'novel' theory of prosecution that only worked because the government can apparently convince most anyone to do anything these days, like convict the president of made-up crimes, or take multiple rounds of an untested gene therapy that at best doesn't work
Handsome?!
https://www.facebook.com/NBCNews/videos/voter-to-president-trump-youre-so-handsome-when-you-smile/3580790395346972/
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I’m really drawing the line at handsome. I think this is hyperbolic. Trump has money, but he also had to declare bankruptcy on a casino and had several failed business including Trump University and Trump Steaks. He’s mostly a showman, PT Barnam shilling real estate and later red hats.
I'm unsure how to convey sincerity and gravity on the internet these days, but I'll try anyway. It is extremely wrong and prima facie unintelligent for anyone to pretend like Trump is not handsome and successful
He is still handsome, but here was his high school yearbook photo for reference - https://www.recordonline.com/gcdn/authoring/2016/04/15/NTHR/ghows_image-TH-3feabe0f-1a87-4175-82bd-def54ded6388.jpeg?width=440&height=660&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
Here is an incomplete list of his companies that he owns and operates (the full list would be more than 500):
Sentient Jets LLC (Now/Known/As Trump Jets LLC) T International Realty LLC (dba Trump International Realty) The Donald J. Trump Foundation, Inc. The Trump Corporation The Trump Follies Member Inc. The Trump Equitable Fifth Avenue Company Trump 106 CPS LLC Trump 55 Wall Corp Trump 767 Management LLC Trump 845 LP LLC Trump 845 UN GP LLC Trump 846 UN MGR Corp Trump 846 UN MGR LLC fka 845 UN LLC Trump AC Casino Marks LLC Trump AC Casino Marks Member Corp Trump Acquisition Corp. Trump Acquisition, LLC Trump Books LLC Trump Books Manager Corp Trump Brazil LLC Trump Briarcliff Manor Development LLC formerly Briar Hall Development LLC Trump Canadian Services Inc Trump Canouan Estate LLC Trump Canouan Estate Member Corp Trump Caribbean LLC Trump Carousel LLC Trump Carousel Member Corp Trump Central Park West Corp Trump Chicago Commercial Member Corp Trump Chicago Commercial Manager LLC Trump Chicago Development LLC Trump Chicago Hotel Member Corp Trump Chicago Hotel Manager LLC Trump Chicago Managing Member LLC Trump Chicago Member LLC Trump Chicago Residential Member Corp Trump Chicago Residential Manager LLC Trump Chicago Retail LLC Trump Chicago Retail Manager LLC Trump Chicago Retail Member Corp Trump Classic Cars LLC Trump Classic Cars Member Corp Trump Commercial Chicago LLC Trump Cozumel Corp Trump Cozumel LLC Trump CPS Corp Trump CPS LLC Trump Delmonico LLC Trump Development Services LLC Trump Development Services Member Corp. Trump Drinks Israel Holdings LLC Trump Drinks Israel Holdings Member Corp Trump Drinks Israel LLC Trump Drinks Israel Member Corp Trump Education ULC Trump Empire State, Inc. Trump Endeavor 12 LLC Trump Endeavor 12 Manager Corp Trump EU Marks Member LLC Trump EU Marks Member Corp The Trump Entrepreneur Initiative LLC (fka Trump University CA LLC) Trump Ferry Point LLC Trump Ferry Point Member Corp Trump Florida Management LLC Trump Florida Manager Corp. The Trump Follies LLC Trump Fort Lee LLC Trump Fort Lee Member Corp Trump Golf Acquisition LLC Trump Golf Coco Beach LLC Trump Golf Coco Beach Member Corp Trump Golf Management LLC Trump Home Marks Trump Home Marks Member Corp Trump Ice LLC Trump Ice Inc Trump Identity LLC Trump Identity Member Corp Trump International Development LLC Trump International Development Member Corp Trump International Golf Club LC Trump International Golf Club Scotland Limited Trump International Golf Club Inc. Trump International Hotel and Tower Condominium Trump International Hotel Hawaii LLC Trump International Hotels Management LLC Trump International Management Corp Trump Kelowna LLC Trump Kelowna Member Corp. Trump Korean Projects LLC Trump Las Olas LLC Trump Las Olas Member Corp Trump Las Vegas Corp. Trump Las Vegas Development LLC Trump Las Vegas Managing Member LLC Trump Las Vegas Managing Member II LLC Trump Las Vegas Marketing and Sales LLC Trump Las Vegas Member LLC Trump Las Vegas Member II LLC Trump Las Vegas Sales & Marketing Inc. Trump International Hotel & Tower Las Vegas Unit Owners Association Trump Lauderdale Development 2 LLC Trump Lauderdale Development LLC Trump Management Inc Trump Marketing LLC Trump Marks Asia Corp Trump Marks Asia LLC Trump Marks Atlanta LLC Trump Marks Atlanta Member Corp Trump Marks Baja Corp Trump Marks Baja LLC Trump Marks Batumi LLC Trump Marks Batumi Member Corp Trump Marks Beverages Corp Trump Marks LLC Trump Marks Canouan Corp Trump Marks Canouan LLC Trump Marks Chicago LLC Trump Marks Chicago Member Corp Trump Marks Cozumel Corp Trump Marks Cozumel LLC Trump Marks Dubai Corp Trump Marks Dubai LLC Trump Marks Egypt Corp Trump Marks Egypt LLC Trump Marks Fine Foods LLC Trump Marks Fine Foods Member Corp Trump Marks Ft. Lauderdale LLC Trump Marks Ft. Lauderdale Member Corp Trump Marks Golf Swing LLC Trump Marks Golf Swing Member Corp Trump Marks GP Corp Trump Marks Holding LP (FKA Trump Marks LP) Trump Marks Hollywood Corp Trump Marks Hollywood LLC Trump Marks Istanbul II Corp. Trump Marks Istanbul II LLC Trump Marks Jersey City Corp. Trump Marks Jersey City LLC Trump Marks Las Vegas Corp Trump Marks Las Vegas LLC Trump Marks LLC Trump Marks Magazine Corp Trump Marks Magazine LLC Trump Marks Mattress LLC Trump Marks Mattress Member Corp. Trump Marks Menswear LLC Trump Marks Menswear Member Corp Trump Marks Mortoaoe Corp. Trump Marks Mtg LLC Trump Marks Mumbai LLC Trump Marks Mumbai Member Corp Trump Marks New Orleans Corp Trump Marks New Orleans LLC Trump Marks New Rochelle Corp. Trump Marks New Rochelle LLC Trump Marks Palm Beach Corp Trump Marks Palm Beach LLC Trump Marks Panama Corp Trump Marks Panama LLC Trump Marks Philadelphia Corp Trump Marks PhiladelPhia LLC Trump Marks Philippines LLC Trump Marks Phil ippine s Corp Trump Marks Products LLC Trump Marks Products Member Corp Trump Marks Puerto Rico I LLC Trump Marks Puerto Rico I Member Corp Trump Marks Puerto Rico II LLC Trump Marks Puerto Rico II Member Corp Trump Marks Punta del Este LLC Trump Marks Punta del Este Manager Corp The Donald J. Trump Company LLC The Trump Marks Real Estate Corp Trump Marks Real Estate LLC Trump Marks SOHO License Corp Trump Marks SOHO LLC Trump Marks South Africa LLC Trump Marks South Africa Member Corp Trump Marks Stamford Corp Trump Marks Stamford LLC Trump Marks Sunny Isles I LLC Trump Marks Sunny Isles I Member Corp. Trump Marks Sunny Isles II LLC Trump Marks Sunny Isles II Member Corp. Trump Marks Tampa Corp Trump Marks Tampa LLC Trump Marks Toronto Corp Trump Marks Toronto LLC Trump Marks Toronto LP (formally Trump Toronto Management LP) Trump Marks Waikiki Corp Trump Marks Waikiki LLC Trump Marks Westchester Corp. Trump Marks Westchester LLC Trump Marks White Plains Corp Trump Marks White Plains LLC Trump Miami Resort Management LLC Trump Miami Resort Management Member Corp Trump National Golf Club Colts Neck LLC Trump National Golf Club Colts Neck Member Corp Trump National Golf Club LLC Trump National Golf Club Member Corp Trump National Golf Club Washington DC LLC Trump National Golf Club Washington DC Member Corp Trump Ocean Manager Inc. Trump Ocean Managing Member LLC Trump Old Post Office LLC Trump On the Ocean LLC Trump Organization LLC The Trump Organization, Inc. Trump Pageants, Inc. Trump Palace Condominium Trump Palace/Parc LLC Trump Panama Condominium Management LLC Trump Panama Condominium Member Corp Trump Panama Hotel Management LLC Trump Panama Hotel Management Member Corp LLC Trump Parc East Condominium Trump Park Avenue Acquisition LLC Trump Park Avenue LLC Trump Payroll Chicago LLC Trump Payroll Corp. Trump Phoenix Development LLC Trump Plaza LLC Trump Plaza Member Inc. fka Trump Plaza Corp. Trump Procida Fort Lee LLC Trump Productions LLC (former Rancho Lien LLC) Trump Production Managing Member Inc Trump Project Management Corp. Trump Properties LLC Trump Realty Services, LLC (fka Trump Mortgage Services LLC (03) & Tower Mortgage Services LLC) Trump Restaurants LLC Trump RHF Corp Trump Riverside Management LLC Trump Ruffin Commercial LLC Trump Ruffin LLC Trump Ruffin Tower I LLC Trump Sales & Leasing Chicago LLC Trump Sales & Leasing Chicago Member Corp Trump Scotland Member Inc Trump Scotsborough Square LLC Trump Scotsborough Square Member Corp. Trump SoHo Hotel Condominium New York Trump Soho Member LLC Trump Toronto Development Inc Trump Toronto Hotel Management Corp. Trump Toronto Member Corp. (formaly Trump Toronto Management Member Corp) Trump Tower Commercial LLC Trump Tower Condominium Residential Section Trump Tower Managing Member Inc Trump Village Construction Corp. Trump Vineyard Estates LLC Trump Vineyard Estates Manager Corp. Trump Vineyard Estates Lot 3 Owner LLC (fka Eric Trump Land Holdings LLC) Trump Virginia Acquisitions LLC (fka Virginia Acquisitions LLC) Trump Virginia Acquisitions Manager Corp Trump Virginia Lot 5 LLC Trump Virginia Lot 5 Manager Corp. Trump Wine Marks LLC Trump Wine Marks Member Corp. Trump World Productions LLC y LLC Trump World Productions Manager Corp Trump World Publications LLC Trump/New World Property Management LLC Trump Castle Management Corp Trump Marks White Plains Corp Trump RHF Corp The Donald J. Trump grantor Trust – DJT is the Trustee Successor – Trustee is Donald J. Trump, Jr. The Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust
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But clearer, and plainer. Thank you for abiding by the rules.
This sounds to me like saying "we need to return to roving gangs in order to escape anarcho-tyranny." I reject the choice to return to roving gangs that you are espousing.
This is false. The felonies weren't made up. A jury of our peers convicted Trump of real felonies. He is a convicted felon. Facts don't care about your feelings.
I am not obligated to indulge your desire to return to roving gangs because your pet politician committed a crime. I'm against returning to roving gangs. Criminals should be punished in the court of law. That's what happened today.
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If Trump had committed any, maybe I would agree with you. What's your opinion about Caesar?
The beginning of the Imperial era in Roman politics led to civil war over the imperial seat which was the true cause of the fall of the Roman Empire.
Authoritarian dictators are an inherently incompetent and violent form of government, and anyone who aspires to return us to savage government is factually incorrect about an important section of human history.
The beginning of the Imperial period was marked by an unusually long period of peace and prosperity thanks to the long reign of Augustus. By contrast, the end of the Republican period was dominated by Romans fighting Romans in a series of bloody civil wars. It turns out that having one military strongman in charge of the polity works a lot better than having two competing military strongmen fighting over the polity.
The violence of the late Republic started long before the Imperial period. It started when extremist Roman partisans decided that their political ideologies were more important than unity and started using whatever means necessary to win - like exploiting the criminal justice system to attack their political opponents. Sound familiar?
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Dictators really aren’t that bad. Rome was great under the emperors for very long periods of time. Assad was better than before. Franco was better than the communists. China has done fairly well. The Saudis are the most functional country in the ME outside Israel. Singapore. It’s heavy America propaganda that dictators = bad.
Yeah, most of the Asian Tigers were driven by what would be considered dictators in charge and have since had larger struggles when going towards manifesting democracy in the 80s/90s
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Dictators provide no benefit over a temporary executive. Removing a bad dictator requires a civil war which cripples a polity for an entire generation.
This is just functionally wrong. Whether dictators are net good is an interesting question.
But they do provide benefits. Internalizing deadweight costs is one thing they do better than Democracies.
The other area they can do better is not all societies have intellectual capabilities to implement a Democracy. You need a certain level of intelligence to succesfully monitor leaders in a Democracy.
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The people will seek an emperor when they figure out that the
oligarchybureaucracy is uncontrollable otherwise.Spoken like a true Roman. They don’t have
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I'm not arguing for Caesar. I'm arguing that throwing politicians in jail for nothing crimes will create Caesar.
You seem to believe this was a "nothing" crime in which case I believe your opinion is motivated reasoning.
Felonies are regarded as a special class of crime.
Donald Trump is a convicted felon. Politicians who commit felonies should be punished for them.
Otherwise I think you are advocating for politicians who are able to commit felonies and escape punishment.
It seems to me that you are either in denial about the seriousness of the crime that Donald Trump, convicted felon, has been convicted of by a jury of our peers, or you want Trump to be immune from prosecution for serious crimes: you are arguing for Caesar.
Please explain what is so serious about the crime of which Trump was (unjustly) convicted.
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