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non_radical_centrist  6mo ago (farhakhalidi.substack.com)   7090 thread views

confessions of a femcel: why i'm a 24 year old female virgin.

farhakhalidi.substack.com

It's an essay about the various flaws modern feminist sex positivity culture has for women, and that it's often a good idea to refrain from sex even if one isn't religious. The author is an Only Fans model for context. I thought it did a great job laying out the downsides of ubiquitous sex.(Reposted because I accidentally linked to reddit instead of the original essay earlier).

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The premise that “24 year old female virgin” is a rare specimen is in itself pretty interesting.

Its not that rare, its just that people typically understand the formation as if it would be difficult to not be in that status anymore. Most high school boys are virgins. But they generally have no way of alleviating that. Any post pubescent girl can "fix" being a virgin by going up to an unattached guy and propositioning him.

Not even propositioning, just acting interested long enough and then responding positively to some inexperienced advances.

The idea that we're going to take the statements of a woman selling sex about her sexual history seriously is in itself pretty interesting. This is what you call a gimmick. She's appealing to over-intellectualized lefties in the same way that Aella makes her money appealing to the ratsphere.

Aella makes her money appealing to the ratsphere.

But at least she has birthday gangbangs. Although I won't qualify for the next because I am AI accelerationist. Oh well ... human progress requires sacrifices.

Thank you, I can't believe I had to scroll this far to see someone questioning the basic validity of this whole story. I swear to god e-girls are the real mind killer, not politics.

I swear to god e-girls are the real mind killer, not politics.

This for real. You know how there are some men with extremely skewed brains where they're brilliant at logical reasoning but terrible at dealing with people? E-girls are like that but in reverse, and they've weaponized it to take people's money like a modern day highwayman.

I think that's understated. I recently went on an anthropological expedition by way of mass online dating. I had about 80 first dates over the course of 2022. I was mostly looking for upper-middle, educated, career-having women and I'd say about a quarter were palpably inexperienced to the point that I don't think they had any meaningful romantic experience by their mid-late twenties.

Like this wasn't coy 'oh teehee I'm a virgin, bats eyelids', this was like... obvious unfamiliarity with how dating even 'worked'. The common theme generally being some form of coming from a fairly repressive sub culture, focusing hard on education/career until finally getting to 26-27 and their parents' reproach shifted from 'When are you becoming a doctor' to 'When am I becoming a grandparent'. Then they'd sally out onto Hinge with a vague dream of meeting somebody nice, and no real experience beyond consuming KDramas.

I was mostly looking for upper-middle, educated, career-having women and I'd say about a quarter were palpably inexperienced to the point that I don't think they had any meaningful romantic experience by their mid-late twenties.

Where was the best place to meet this type of women?

Coffee Meets Bagel. Not sure how universal it is as an app but kind of focused on this demographic.

The girls on Coffee Meets Bagel a very disproportionately Asian in my experience.

That's because upper-middle, educated, career-having women are disproportionately Asian

I don't think that explains much of it. I don't find the women on there to be noticeably higher class on average than the ones on Hinge or Bumble, and despite there not being many East Asians here, most of the women on there are East Asian. The vast majority of educated upper middle class career having women here are white.

True. I found my dating mostly trended Asian but in my experience trying to filter by non-obese, non-singlemom, non-tattooed, educated and white-collar job having meant that I was left with 90% Asian girls.

Yes. Definitely hugely skews that way in my geographic area.

The common theme generally being some form of coming from a fairly repressive sub culture, focusing hard on education/career until finally getting to 26-27 and their parents' reproach shifted from 'When are you becoming a doctor' to 'When am I becoming a grandparent'.

This is a kind of stupid on the part of the Asian (South or East, at least based on my British experience) parents that makes the stupid in Western sexual culture look mild. Enjoy your 0.8 TFR, Chonky.

There are excessively few high quality women having kids in the west even controlling for earlier sexual activity. The high breeders in the west are muslims and blacks and latinos, with only latinos being able to reliably reach class escape velocity. Most new kids are net negative, and the Asians have bet on robots. Not necessarily the best bet, but if their societies collapse it'll just fall over dustily, not ruined from within by disgruntled 'minorities'.

I think indigenous people have far more children than any of those groups.

Natives have substantially higher birth rates (typically about 50% higher than whites) in all settler colonies, including Australia, Canada and most of the US (although stats are hard to find, this is true for Hawaii and probably Alaska at least). Nevertheless, the trend is typically still the same as other groups (ie downward) rather than holding steady above replacement. So we can expect these groups to shrink in time too, especially because (obviously) they’re not going to be replenished with inbound immigration.

In Canada at least, the indigenous fertility rate is 2.7. The Inuit have a fertility rate of 2.8. From what I've heard, they have a completely different attitude towards having children than the rest of the country does. Teenage pregnancy followed by single motherhood after a few years is common and many very young people really want to have babies.

I think it’s best to see these as trends affecting extremely poor, rural, badly educated people more than indigenous people specifically per se. It’s not irrelevant but if you look at the places with eg. highest single motherhood, teenage pregnancy among the white population they’re probably places that are closer in many ways to indigenous communities on many metrics. In Canada, Hawaii and elsewhere, indigenous people who are smart and want to make something of themselves in settler civilization quickly assimilate within 2 generations; there isn’t a native elite the way there’s a longstanding (if small) black upper-middle class in places like Atlanta.

Red tribe whites with their upper 90s IQ have a TFR on par with Latinos.

Muslim fertility in the west is below replacement if one looks at the children they have once they're actually here. No one is having a ton of kids outside of small religious extremist groups and the vast majority of Muslims do not fall into that category.

'Its only the extremists breeding uncontrollably!' is not the comforting message I believe you intended...

I didn't intend to comfort you.

The high breeders in the west are muslims and blacks and latinos

Nonsense. Neither blacks nor Latinos have fertility above replacement. Black fertility is only marginally greater than white fertility.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/226292/us-fertility-rates-by-race-and-ethnicity/

no real experience beyond consuming KDramas.

Someones experienced the east asian dating sphere and knows the horror for himself. Virginal asian girls really live a cloistered life totally unknown to their foreign counterparts, even indian, and the girls who are put off by obnoxious yellow fevered men are unlikely to waste time dating asians either. For great fun see if these girls read webnovels, those things are hilariously smutty and gay.

I moved in with my partner and her younger sister (mid-late twenties East-Asian consultant) 6 months ago, and have had kinda first hand view of her sister's involvement in dating as a 100-hour week consultant who occasionally has an awkward first date... and yeah it's a whole subculture/form of existence I had no idea about until now.

You have no idea. Good east asian girls are a totally unknown quantity to westerners because these girls generally didn't date at all and find even nebbish whites too aggressively forward. These girls also have their preference profiles shaped by the most asinine Kdrama shit, and their expectations for male behavior are simultaneously low and ridiculously high. While more leeway is given to whites in terms of cultural compliance, less leeway is given for emotional unintelligence. This is a huge warning sign because these girls have no experience in managing their own emotional states under duress and present a totally unknown variable even to themselves.

These girls also have their preference profiles shaped by the most asinine Kdrama shit, and their expectations for male behavior are simultaneously low and ridiculously high.

As someone with zero familiarity with K-dramas, I'm interested to know what this means.

What @Forgotpassword says.

High expectation: ridiculous grand gestures of romance as the end point of a horrifyingly long dating process, conspicuous consumerism as a shit test for love, gotta match the girls skincare routine, 7 heads tall

Low expectations: fidelity is practically a sideshow, alcoholism is not a problem, men are presumed to be incompetent caregivers and are not expected to step up to childraising, emotional incompetence is assumed. These lows are actually pretty terrible for relationships but the presumed low emotional competence of asian men thanks to Kdramas is a fucking paradise of calm the men enjoy. Young women openly ventilating emotional meltdowns and expecting understanding/validation is nightmare I hope to never endure again.

fidelity is practically a sideshow

Perhaps true for the older generation of East Asian women, but I would expect the younger ones obsessed with romantic Kdramas about true love surely expect fidelity/monogamy?

Ok so the the point of fidelity is less that 'he will cheat' and more that 'marriage is no guarantee he is off limits', whether as an initiator or as a recipient. Fidelity being an afterthought was a statement meant to communicate required vigilance on the part of the woman, compared to observed western practices where women take husbands for granted and presume they will never stray. Asian women are hardly 'accepting' of cheating insomuch as wary of it, and that wariness permeates. Not the most extant expectation by far, but women raised on kdramas do seem especially sensitive to female friends of their husbands. One guy I know has to surrender his phone to his wife every night for message review, even though he's the nicest dweeb ever who had to be cajoled into going to the beach with the woman on a church outing.

I once saw an interview with a bunch of (young) Japanese women where said women expressed they wouldn't mind if a partner went to a brothel but they'd get very upset if the partner went to a Hostess Club.

Who knows.

My defacto Mother in Law & Grandmother in law practically fainted from shock when I proactively changed diapers and bottle fed the newborn. Not that they disproved, but the bar for childrearing involvement seems to be Marianas trench levels in East Asian cultures.

Super slowburn romances, lots of grand gestures of romance, incredibly pretty boys without particular masculine push.

I've got a baby and a longterm relationship with one and live with another. Both born in Asia and came across for University. I think you're tarring a bit too broadly, my partner's a lot more adventurous than her sister both romantically and career-wise, but having watched a few KDrama I do agree that it's a deranged way of forming romantic expectations. I do think this has been compounded by the online dating meta, since I've observed a ton of 'an interaction went slightly subpar, GOODBYE FOREVER' from talking to female friends.

Also having been 4-5 dates in with a few other East Asian girls where the pace of engagement was glacial during my time on the apps. Which made up the majority of my 'this 26 year old girl has essentially zero idea how to play the game' experiences.

I don't have much experience dating East Asians, but one did ask me to be her boyfriend on the third date before we'd even kissed. I thought that was odd.

That’s pretty normal for socially conservative cultures.

I thought they'd wait longer than most people to ask that.

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I live in East Asia and I am strangely amenable to women despite glaring deficiencies likely common to many esteemed members of this board. These women regularly lament with me the trials of their female friends, and upon reviewing their behavior at inane group functions my partner and I both agree that this derangement is both unique to east asia and far more prevalent than westerners think. You see girls on bad dates, I see girls who have never dated ever. Dateless men bitch visibly, dateless (but not crazy) women disappear into some horrorsbow kdrama abyss

Can you elaborate on this behaviour?

Not much to elaborate. Clueless, nervous, uncommunicative. Unable to initiate conversation,monosyllabic in response, zero cross gender social skills. They never give any indication to any man that they are interested (if they are capable of having any form of interest generated in the first place), cannot parse flirtation or conversation, collapse into shrinking incoherence when the penny drops. These girls would in kinder days be matchmade by the church or their parents, and the normal pattern for them is to be pushed into dating whichever clueless male cell group member is in their church by their friends. Without a church, these women disappear into kdramas and trashy webnovels.

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I don't think it's totally unique to East Asia. Dated some white women who essentially exhibited the same behaviors (admittedly way less as a proportion), but there's a particular subgenre that is cultivated by East Asian cultures.

I'd consider the sort of 'bad dates' they go on essentially not going on any dates ever. They'll occasionally sally to make an app profile, book a single 30 minute coffee with somebody who passes a 3 week DM interview and then strike them from the record for whatever random reason onto the next.

I personally know quite a few women in their late twenties who are relatively attractive and either virgins or have maybe had one partner in their whole lives. Often they’re women who have mainly female hobbies or career, but some work in male-dominated jobs too. They’re usually very shy and have feminine hobbies/interests.

One of the big failure states for men looking at modern women is judging them by the most promiscuous decile, simply because those are the women they’re most likely to encounter socially (even if they don’t hook up with them, they’re more likely to go out, drink, and have masculine hobbies and interests).

I’ve definitely heard this before, and it seems like solving the problem for shy, introverted women with (de facto)conservative preferences would solve the problem for normie men.

Modernity culturally has a lot to answer for, but in this case I think it’s also urbanization and the atomization that followed limiting traditional familial and community matchmaking. One sees the same phenomenon in big cities even in comparatively trad countries, where urban areas often have lower tfr than more rural communities in ‘lib’ nations. 2024 Tehran is less socially conservative than most Americans probably think, but it’s still more socially conservative than rural America and yet has a lower birthrate.

2024 Tehran is less socially conservative than most Americans probably think, but it’s still more socially conservative than rural America and yet has a lower birthrate

Ditto for Turkish cities.

Anglos have been living with dating norms that are relatively recognisable in the modern world for almost a millennium. Lots of cultural (and likely actual physical) evolution to accommodate this and still keep making babies. Rapidly modernising Muslim countries have all absolutely wrecked dating norms and corresponding abysmal fertility rates.

Yes I wouldn’t be surprised to see ultra-low East Asian type tfr in a lot of the wealthier Muslim countries very soon. Many of the people from there I work with are married (some for many years) but have only one child, or none at all.

Honestly I think a lot of the tragedy of this is that these women get onto the dating apps and it's usually one of two outcomes from what I've heard.

  1. Week or two of chatter with guys, maybe a first/second date which doesn't really go anywhere and eventually churning for another few months after a moderately bad experience or since work picks up. Rinse and repeat twice a year from 25-35.

  2. Get absolutely played by somebody they don't have enough knowledge to know who's too good to be true and either abandon the apps or pivot into the most promiscuous decile for vague meandering reasons of revenge.

I've noticed the best women I meet on dating apps downloaded it about a week ago, haven't been on a date yet, and are about to delete it because it's overwhelming.

Absolutely one hundred percent true. It’s almost as if being able to play that game and enjoying it for long amounts of time says bad things about a girl

Yeah. Lots of girls will do that where they'll make an app account, be exposed to the firehose of approaches, maybe do a date or two and if that person is good they've got a boyfriend and if that person is lacking they'll delete and be back in 6 months.

Speaking for myself, I didn't see any point to dating in high school or college, because I always knew that I would move states afterwards and didn't want to have to breakup. In college my Mom would tell me that I could be a little less practical.

Now that it's been 10 years I realize that the whole point of my Ivy league education was to meet people and that dating would have been a better use of my time than doing my homework. But at the time I didn't understand.

It's the usual stuff. Your parents assumed that it will, like, just happen.

Now that it's been 10 years I realize that the whole point of my Ivy league education was to meet people and that dating would have been a better use of my time than doing my homework. But at the time I didn't understand.

It's the usual stuff. Your parents assumed that it will, like, just happen.

People don't waste mental effort analyzing things that work. It's why no one can draw a bicycle even if they ride one regularly.

It's a curious phenomenon. When I was a teen, I made an effort to seek out the best arguments against gay marriage, in favor of traditional gender roles, in favor of Christian sexual prudery, etc. The apologists I found were hilariously bad at this, and they melted into a puddle of "it's not natural" and "things have always been done this way". I did not find them convincing.

Now that dating and marriage are broken, cogent defenders of these position can be found. The clock was taken apart, and people see how it ticked.

I believe this happens with almost all belief ideologies - Most modern socialists are hilariously bad at defending socialist/communist idealism beyond the most elementary criticism, with the only notable person I know who can hold their own being Zizek. Likewise, modern atheism has become low hanging fruit and poorly upheld compared to it's intellectual roots of Dawkins and others. There needs to be intellectual and social challenge to peel away the grifters and the stupid to reveal the people capable of actually defending an ideology.

IME, almost every bit of "bad" advice I see people complain about is basically this - just assuming well-adjusted people will find their way. And it isn't (wasn't?) even usually wrong, which is what makes it worse. There's no easy solution in just stopping people from it.

What do you mean it isn't wrong? My friend with by far the most successful love live in high school and university told me that getting a girlfriend is something that "just happens" and that you don't need to try. Is that what you're referring to? Because that doesn't work.

and that you don't need to try.

Oh, that's too far. There are annoying people like that but they're oversold. I don't think the average person thinks men should literally do nothing. The people telling you to "just be yourself" are taking it for granted that you are doing other things (like maintaining a social life).

I mean that the banal advice people give that you always hear complaints about are usually just assuming that people possess the same amount of socialization and enough agency to work their way through it like they did. People for whom it doesn't work naturally get frustrated, but that doesn't make it wrong or, as more neurotic and paranoid sides of the internet claim, some sort of plot or acceptable lie like telling kids about Santa Claus. To use one example from this sub: this is not bad advice, even if someone is not well-adjusted enough to take it.

The little advice I got from my parents wasn't bad, even though they came from a totally different society. They assumed it'd work out. And, had I been a different person, it absolutely would have.

That reminds me of some useless (for me) advice I've read online, where people say that, to socialize more, you should start accepting any social invitations you get. I and many other people already do that. The hard part is getting the invitations in the first place.

For a certain type of person this is indeed good advice though. I definitely know people who are struggling to meet anyone for dating but don’t see how rejecting any social interaction has any relation to this.

Also social interaction is a snowballing thing. When you first enter a new social network (university, work, potential new friend group, sports team etc) saying yes to that one invitation early on can mean hundreds of invitations down the line. Conditioning someone to always say yes so they don’t miss out on that freshman’s party where multiple friend groups formed is quite useful

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So far I have given them four grandkids. So that's something. But I didn't start participating in the dating market until I was 25 and married someone they probably thought was a step down.

Generally matches my experience too. Also I don't think I've encountered any women who have gone "oh no I've never done this tee hee", they were all pretty up front with their experience if the conversation went there, or did genuinely have little experience. Although it's not impossible I was taken in by excellent liars, I doubt it.

You had 80 first dates?!? Have you ever heard of the paradox of choice? The more choices you have the less you'll enjoy the one you'll finally end up with, because you'll compare all the best pieces of all your previous possible choices to your final one. It is a real thing...you might already be totally fucked from it.

I've got a partner and a child now, actually doing pretty well!

But I do agree that 80 was excessive but this was me essentially starting from a 2/10 in attractiveness and going on a date who'd anybody who'd take me in order to develop social skills, my self-confidence and generally explore options.

Don't be that hard on yourself man. I doubt anyone that is a 2/10 has a wife a child now.

The 2/10 was largely self-inflicted!

Yeah I tend to agree, I met a 30 year old virgin on a dating app. She was good looking and socially normal, just had never really gotten around to it.

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