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PaperclipPerfector  2d ago (text post)   1722 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for March 2, 2025

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A rather broad question rather than a small one: do you enjoy being embodied, feeling and doing stuff with your physical body in the real world?

For me, the answer is obvious – I would leave my body behind and not interact with the physical environment at all if I could. I just don’t feel any positive emotions moving around, being present, interacting with objects that aren’t a screen of some form. I never did for some reason, even as a kid.

It is strange because I’m a fairly healthy male in my late 20s without any disabilities, nor am I terribly out of shape (although I am slightly overweight due to working a sedentary job nowadays, but I had the same feeling even when I was at a normal weight), so I should theoretically be the prime demographic for enjoying bodily sensations. Some people have described intense physical activity to me as being inherently pleasurable – I’ve played my fair share of sports at the insistence of my parents as a teenager, and never felt anything other than irritation during and after training, so hearing others say it feels like listening to an alien describing the awesome parties of Alpha Centaura.

This sincere distaste for being embodied extends to a lot of aspects of life that most people tend to find enjoyable – I don’t care much for travel, tinkering with things or the physical side of sex either. I constantly find myself actively not wanting to go places or do things with my hands, and would probably be among the first to start living in some VRMMO full-time, Ready Player One style, once (okay, okay, “if”, let a man cope) it becomes an option.

Is this some fairly unique side-effect of the ‘tism that makes me miss out on universal human experiences, or do some of you feel that way as well?

do you enjoy being embodied, feeling and doing stuff with your physical body in the real world?

No, I do not. I used to when I was younger. My circumstances are likely somewhat unique though. I have a hereditary condition that makes walking/standing difficult and painful. At best I use a cane, at worst a wheelchair. My hands still work ok, and I'm presently able to earn a living sitting at a desk with my hands and my brain, but the arthritis has begun to manifest as I age and at the end of a busy day of office work my hands are sometimes in considerable pain. My entire body hurts most of the time to be honest. Physical pain generally is a constant presence in my life, as is exhaustion. My cancer is currently in remission, though some recent tests were “concerning” so I’m off to the hospital again in a few days. I’m fortunate to have good insurance. Despite this I’m generally pretty happy most of the time. I’m regularly exposed to people who are worse off than me, and I meditate 1-2 hours a day. So, while I do very much enjoy existing, I’m not always the biggest fan of the vessel I’m embodied in. Fortunately, its temporary.

Definitely not unique, this is a component of ascetism, Buddism, Schopenhauer(ism?). You can try Nietzsche as a embodiment-affirming response to these feelings.

I think that, if I could not constantly feel assured of my own tangible existence, then I would constantly feel nervous about the continued tangible existence of whatever computer server I would be running on. But I don't think that really counts as "enjoying being embodied".

I used to feel this way, and often experienced a sense of profound disappointment when I snapped back to reality after finishing a good book, video game, or daydream and "remembered that I exist" for lack of a better term, but that rarely happens nowadays. I think accepting that you have a body, or more properly that you are a body, is part of becoming a mature human being (we are called human beings and not human experiencings for a reason) and the once unspoken but perhaps nowadays more necessary corollary of accpeting one's mortality. Not that I'd turn down transhumanist brain uploading or life extension technologies if they existed and were offered to me, but until I see proof that they work with my own eyes I will defer to the wisdom of our ancestors and not assume I'm part of the first generation that will transcend this material form.

Yes, I do. When I was younger I didn't, simply because I was weak, clumsy but healthy, so I didn't really consider my body an asset.

If I could digitally project my consciousness on and off by choice to free myself from neck/back pain so I can just read/think without concern for posture, hunger, etc. I would probably do it for >70% of my day.

But if it had to be a permanent one-time decision then no (at least not unless my physical condition deteriorates much further). There are too many real-world physical sensations that I can't imagine giving up: snowboarding down a powdery mountain, making perfect contact on a full-force tennis swing and knowing you set your feet in position perfectly and watching the ball go exactly where you willed it, cutting through the water with a well-executed freestyle rhythm.

I felt similarly to you about many things before trying out the above. I would say try out some physical activities that have that sort of instant and unique tactile feedback if you haven't. Rock climbing is another that seems popular for it, though I never really felt drawn by it. People talk about runner's high, or a sense of relief after an intense lifting session, but I absolutely hate running and weight-lifting. It'll be different for everyone.

Are you pursuing the right physical sensations? Have you dipped your feet in a cold slowly water on a hot day? Laid in the sand and moved your hand around? Wind through your hair on a very windy day? Do you enjoy the sensation of the sun on your face? Tried weighted blankets? Gone down a hall on a bicycle?

I very much enjoy being embodied and think of my body as integral to me. We are inseparable and I think if my consciousness was separated from my body I would be a different person.

I've been an athlete and been in athletic competitions my entire life and I thoroughly enjoy the physical aspect in addition to the competition. I've found driving my body to its limit to be enjoyable and rewarding. I find the physical aspect of sex with the breathing, the contact, and the smells to be the better part of it. I think physically being near people is very important for my connection to them. I've found video games to be empty beyond the competitive/cognitive nature of them or feelings of accomplishment when I complete something. I get little or no enjoyment from "flying" or "jumping" or "falling" in a video game and likewise do not particularly care about graphics or spectacles. I very much enjoy jumping, flying, and falling in my body.

I've always found transhumanism to be anti-human. How much have you or do you video game and for how long? I've found among hardcore gamers, they regularly have similar feelings of detachment from their body.

How much have you or do you video game and for how long?

My total gaming time is easily in the tens of thousands of hours, and I've been doing it since I was 4 or 5. Every year I bang out another 1500-2000 hours or thereabout. It's definitely a contributing factor, I'd say, although I was a bookish child anyway and whenever I wasn't playing, I'd be sitting down with a book or watching a cartoon, not running around. I'm not sure I would have turned out particularly different from who I am now in my preferences if video games were never invented.

The only time I've ever felt like you've described is when I tried to stay up for as long as I could and made it to about 3 1/2 days. At about the 2 1/2 day mark I started to feel disassociated from my body.

How often in your life have you felt genuine fear? I'm wondering if exposing yourself to things which I've found to cause genuine fear or physical stimulus, e.g., sky diving or rock climbing or motorcycle racing etc., would get you to re-embody, if that's something you would be interested in.

Do you get real fear, excitement, heart pounding, etc., when you're playing video games?

I'm more okay with it now than I used to be. Mostly thanks to meditation, which builds equanimity and physical presence at the same time. And I like doing cardio exercise (on good equipment!). And I like eating good food and other sensual pleasures... shrug

I don't hate my body. It comes in handy at times. It does what I ask it to, mostly, and hasn't broken down from old age even though I'm past the nominal best-by date.

That being said, I am a transhumanist, and would happily ditch it for an upgrade. I'd be more than ready to upload my mind into a computer, while relying on physical end-effectors to do things in the real world.

I’ve played my fair share of sports at the insistence of my parents as a teenager, and never felt anything other than irritation during and after training, so hearing others say it feels like listening to an alien describing the awesome parties of Alpha Centaura.

More or less the same. Never enjoyed sports much, though I did like tennis. Football was a nightmare since I wear glasses.

I don’t care much for travel, tinkering with things or the physical side of sex either

Can't say I don't like sex, but I'm not one for proactively seeking to travel. I'll go if someone does all the hard work of planning things out, and occasionally find the results enjoyable. Physical tinkering was never a real hobby, beyond it being a necessity for doing things like building a PC. I want the computer, I don't want to pay the premium for a prebuild, so I made one myself.

Is this some fairly unique side-effect of the ‘tism that makes me miss out on universal human experiences, or do some of you feel that way as well?

Autism often comes with sensory processing issues and body dysphoria.

I hate VR, but I used to, maybe 15 years ago, play WoW, and I enjoyed running and flying and interacting in that world--sometimes I'd think "If this were the real world, there is no way in hell I'd still be running right now" after crossing the entirety of Eversong Woods. I spent hours playing, then one day my wife took a photo of me in my headphones staring seriously at the screen and I had a moment. I quit not long after.

But to answer your question "do I enjoy being embodied and doing stuff with my physical body" the answer is what I suspect it would be for most: Sometimes. Most of the time probably. Even after having my ass kicked and thrown all over the floor in Aikido, when I come home and shower and then get into the furo I feel sore as hell--but I feel alive. I was having this conversation with my oldest son recently: I feel most alive when I am walking in the freezing cold at 4:30 am going to the train station. If it's pissing down rain or snowing, all the more.

I am not a masochist. But you don't get to my age without having experienced a lot of physical discomfort (and I am relatively whole and healthy with all my limbs, unlike many.) You learn to enjoy the relaxing moments in the warm bed, or in the pool, or on the couch, or having a glass of wine at the kitchen table with your wife where the room is heated, while at the same time holding in the back of your head that this is only a brief respite from the freezing cold or burning heat, from hunger and fear and extreme exhaustion and a walking journey with a big pack where the end will not be for hours and hours and you have to make sure of not only your own safety but that of others, and you're scared shitless but that's your lot. That's an earthquake away. Or fill in your disaster. To say nothing of the eventual hospital or hospice bed where you may someday be in constant freakish pain without IV analgesics.

Yes I enjoy being embodied. Or more to the point, until your post, I've never questioned that "being embodied" is anything but reality, or that anything that is not that is unreality, or a Baudrillard hyperreality. Maybe when I was a kid and I watched that Star Trek OS episode Spock's Brain where his mind is literally disembodied (Brain and brain! What is brain?)

I'm intrigued at your feelings of what you're calling "severe distaste," particularly in that you say you've felt them since childhood. It makes me wonder if gaming has knocked loose something in the human brain that shouldn't be knocked loose.

Nota bene: I am old. You will get different perspectives on this.

Nota bene: I am old. You will get different perspectives on this.

That is by far the biggest downside of a baseline human body, and why I don't want to be stuck in one even if I like mine.

It will, despite our best medicines, decay and fail you. Maybe our drugs and treatments will get better, and we can keep people healthy indefinitely. But even then, I want things that no human body constrained by biology will be able to provide.

I'm not physically decrepit. Well, not yet. When I say old I mean mainly my perspective is different from that of the generation that grew up online.

Edit: As for the remainder of your comment, I'm at a loss. The human condition is its frailty and finitude. The Gift of Men, as Tolkien wrote.

The human condition is its frailty and finitude. The Gift of Men, as Tolkien wrote.

"Aging and death are good, actually" is the biggest fucking cope I have seen in my life.

I'm not as much of a transhumanist as some of the other rationalists, but I really don't think wanting to live until the heat death of the universe in an 18-year-old body is too much to ask.

I can't tell if you're calling George's words or Tolkien's "cope", but if it's the latter then I think you're mistaken. Tolkien was Catholic, and his setting reflected his beliefs. Death is absolutely a good thing in that framework, because you get to be with God, and that is such a profound joy that all else pales in comparison (even being in an 18-year-old body until the heat death of the universe).

Also, I think you're underrating how weary the world can become after even just our short stay here. Some of those problems would be obsolete in your hypothetical scenario, but not all. At some point, when you've seen a pointless genocide for the hundred thousandth time, is the fact that your body works great really that much of a solace? One thing I've noticed in spending time with old people (proper old, not @George_E_Hale lol) is that they are often quite ready to lay down their cares and rest. And the young never quite understand it because they just haven't been through enough of life to get to the point where death seems like a welcome end to things (with some exceptions, like very depressed people). But it's a very real thing, and to be honest I can understand it a lot more now at (almost) 40 than I could at 25.

I would think somewhere around 22 is more advantageous for a man.

Well I'm happy to have contributed to the biggest something in your life. I really dislike the neologism "cope" used in this way--rationalization/delusion is what you mean?

Whether aging and death are good or not is beside the point, or beside my own point. They've always been part of the human condition. Knowing your time is limited--and it will always be limited, regardless of how much progress longevity science makes--is a large contributor to what gives that time meaning.

If someone is that greatly attached to their frailty and finitude, then who am I to object? I won't, as long as they don't get in the way of me escaping mine.

There are plenty of aspects of the "human condition" that were ubiquitous and seemingly unavoidable for all of human history till they were not. I don't think most people miss 50% infant mortality rates, or heart attacks being inevitable death. They're not going to miss old age either, and if they really want that experience for themselves, that's their prerogative.

For what it's worth, the human condition seems to be a consistent trend of overcoming how awful said condition could be at times.

Imagine that tomorrow we perfect mind-upload. Your entire brain, and with it your identity and memories get cloned into an AI. You get to meet the AI, it’s really you. But the physical you, the meat you, still exists. The AI is a clone. I presume there would be no need to kill yourself, but would you no really longer have fear of death in your physical body? I doubt it. The thing about us living forever is that even if it happens in your lifetime, it probably won’t be ‘you’ living forever.

That is a strict improvement over the status-quo.

I'm not a biological chauvinist, and I think that the upload has equal claim to my name and assets. I also expect that unless things go really awry, the human version would probably end up acquiring biological immortality eventually. Destructive scans seem much easier than ones that preserve the original, but the latter isn't a bad thing as far as I'm concerned. It always leaves the option of another upload, one when the original is closer to death.

Even if that wasn't the case, I'd rest easier. Growing old and dying of old age sucks, but it is a great comfort to have seen your grandkids be born, follow in your footsteps and flourish. You can die with fewer regrets. In the same manner, if I had a backup, even one that would outlive me, I'd wish it well, and know that it would share most of my goals and desires, and would mourn my passing.

would mourn my passing.

Or feel relief about not having some progenitor who's seen as more-real-than-you hanging aroung anymore.

I suspect there will be all kinds of dysfunctions with the uploads themselves and revolving around them. The psychologists of the future will have their quackery cut out for them.

The best person to speculate about a copy of myself would be me. And I don't think that would happen.

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False premise, this isn't perfect mind upload.

The state of the art in sci-fi, last time I checked, was that you stay conscious as they disconnect your brain cells one by one (or some small enough increment) and replace them with the artificial ones, slowly so that you can fill the gaps in your memories back in Ship of Theseus style and have no doubt you're staying yourself.

Imagine if it was perfect mind upload, and you find yourself back in your meat body after the mind upload is complete. You can kill yourself, but you have to do it yourself. Now answer the question.

Refer to the edit. In the process I described, the meat body is wiped by the process, if it failed the only way I could end up is "dead".

If it was the mind upload you described, I would not undergo it as it's pointless. Or rather, I would see it as some self-fetishistic form of procreation and would do it only as soon as I wanted to bear a digital child who was a copy of me. Naturally, I wouldn't like to share my bank account with them.

You been playing soma recently?

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I am certainly not suggesting that medical science and longevity are net negatives. Looked at from your materialist perspective, again, your viewpoint makes perfect sense.

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