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Good and accurate write up. Love me some motte journalism.
I already mentioned this in my last post, but the moral of the story is to have a stronger cultural immune response against bpd chicks and guys who are "sensitive" and "on a mental health journey". These people should be trusted much less in general and around each other than they are in these communities, no matter how much therapy speak they use.
Also you and other people on here have completely the wrong take on monogamy. Arguing that the temptation to cheat and men's desire for sexual novelty means men shouldnt be monogamous is asenine. Monogamy has many benefits that go well beyond sexual gratification. Its a very pornbrained attitude to life.
Your also conveniently leaving out the fact that daniel and naomi by all accounts had awful sex that they felt immedialtely regretful terrible about.
Acting like monogamy is some sort of shackle that inhibits mens innate drives is wrong. Monogamy serves to put long term interest above short term male impulses. Some men have a much harder time fighting this, and those people probably are in some ways incapable of being fully monogamous. Sucks to be them. This is linked with all sorts of mental disorders.
Edit: Most Humans are naturally serial monogamists. I concede that 30 year+ marriages are probably much less sexually long term fullfilling than switching partners every 5 years past 45.
Hey, there's a zoomer trend we should talk about. Every zoomer always describes any sex they had as awful. They were terrible, their partner was terrible, it was just generally miserable and sticky and depressing. What's that about? I assumed it was memetic drift from not bragging about having sex, or that maybe the loss of the sacred aspect of sex has made it all seem very vulgar.
Maybe hookups just suck, sex without commitment is a bad thing and people are reacting honestly?
For men? Really? I think they're slightly suboptimal in the sense that you don't exactly know what you can "get away with" but it doesn't seem like most men dislike them
There is a fair amount of social pressure to behave otherwise. Or was a decade ago. Maybe said zoomer trend is said social pressure collapsing for one reason or another?
Sorry I'm not quite parsing what you're saying here, do you mean Zoomer men pretend to hate casual sex?
No. Let me restate said hypothesis:
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Yes, people are wired not to hit and quit ingroup members. Even men. Imagine your friend’s hot sister or something.
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I've found that my very first time with anyone tends to suck; the good first-time sex I've had still wasn't as technically good as the 3rd+ times with that same person. Maybe zoomers never fuck anyone twice, so they never find this out?
I mean hookup culture, mathematically, seems to be the same few people hooking up with each other- I’m guessing lots of these are repeat hookups with the same person.
Human sexuality is meant to either have actual relationships with members of the same tribe, or rapey encounters with the outgroup. Hookups are neither and they leave their participants feeling gross and unsatisfied.
I can easily imagine a case where both
a) the majority of hookups are with repeat partners
b) the majority of people having hookups are with a new partner.
Example: a small clique of 11 people who all hooked up with all the other 10 3x times each (55x3->165 total hookups), and a larger group of 20 people who each had one hookup apiece.
Total number of hookups: 55x3 + 10, or 165.
Total number of first-time hookups: 55+10, or 65.
% of hookups with repeat partners: ~61%
Median number of hookup partners: 1
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Men, women, how many of each? I can confirm n = 1 described sex this way and "not being ready", which I was actually kind of shocked to hear him say given who I learned he was.
Meanwhile, the ones that probably should be having lots of sex (and are guaranteed to have better sex when they do just because of the way they are) are too afraid or depressed to make that attempt.
And this is supposed to change things, somehow? If you're going to treat sex the way you'd treat any other more standard aspect of the relationship, it seems logical that the way you treat the other aspects of your relationship is going to dominate the way you have sex. If you're shit at relationships, you're probably going to be shit at transactional sex.
We had free love in the 1960s and 70s because fucking everything was free- men were the same, but the modern/ancient existential dread of "tfw no hymen" just wasn't there, so there must have been some other thing going on to make that possible.
This seems to be describing a type of people who don't see sex (or the things and desires that lead to sex) as a general extension of intimacy more broadly.
I truly do not understand these people.
Maybe the stakes for that are higher, maybe the people worthy of that kind of intimacy are fewer and farther between, and maybe some to lots of people merely see sex as transactional as an inherent property of either modern relationships or relationships in general (where marriages are treated, or viewed by one or both participants, as an exclusive prostitution agreement- which is biologically predictable, as men and women are different).
Perhaps in that case the feeling one is "owed" an orgasm dominates, where if that doesn't happen the sex was a failure; contrast fooling around.
Speaking of which... "fooling around" is very looked down on as a concept by zoomers: you're either Very Adult and Having Sex(tm), or you're in child mode and thinking about sex in "fooling around" mode is a massive problem because Sex + Child = Pedo. Which is how you get communities full of teenagers calling each other pedophiles about being attracted to fellow 16-year-olds (something I've also seen zoomers do in person).
And I actually do blame the porn (or perhaps more saliently, society's reaction to it back in the '80s), and the pretenses about the Holy Age Gate of Sex, for that one. Even without that paradigm, at 25-30 you're out of the stage of life where you can afford to take sex less seriously (both because relative poverty, but also because of a lack of time- if you're orgasmmaxxing, why would you bother with an inexperienced partner?).
Before the start of my current relationship, I deflowered two women in 2022 in casual relationships. I won't lie - it was quite the turn-on.
I think being able to provide/appreciate the "virgin experience" is an underrated part of relationships (and creates certain anxieties in people who don't understand that -> simultaneously overvalue and undervalue virginity, in the sense that it's very important to be one, but whether you otherwise act like one is irrelevant).
It's also not really an itch that video porn in particular, being spherical-cow-in-vacuum sexuality, can scratch beyond just saying magic words (and is an underservable market for exactly the reasons one might feel you'd have to lie about/downplay wanting to do that specifically).
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How do you know they were telling the truth 👀
I don't, of course. IIRC the first one bled a little, consistent with a broken hymen (although that's not the only thing that can cause one to bleed during sex, obviously). The second claimed I was her first kiss in addition to first sex, and her behaviour certainly seemed consistent with that claim. But you're right: I don't know for sure and I never will.
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This, in isolation, cracked me up.
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I'm a zoomer and I do not endorse this message. I brag about the great sex I have all the time. Likewise, I used to have bad sex, which I used to humblebrag about. Maybe what you're seeing is younger people having less sex and less experience with sex.
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There is a related trend in pop music made by female Zoomers (or at least performed by them) wherein there’s this surprisingly huge corpus of songs about how bad guys are at sex and how women are better off pleasuring themselves. (I’m happy to provide multiple examples if people insist on it.) The tinfoil hat conspiracy theory is that these songs are being written by (((Them))) as intentional propaganda warfare to stoke division and mistrust between the sexes. Assuming that’s mostly or entirely untrue, though, it does reveal a very concerning element of young people’s consciousness.
And to be clear, I don’t think this began with Zoomers, although I think it’s gotten worse under them. Personally, I have a ton of neuroses about sex that I picked up as a result of being exposed to all of the (frankly, quite vindictive) complaints about men’s sexual performance by Millennial female comedians and cultural commentators. It makes it very hard to simply lose oneself in the moment sexually if one constantly has a voice in the back of the head saying, “What if she’s actually hating this right now? And she’s going to tell her friends or social media followers how bad it was later?” I don’t know how Zoomer men are supposed to function if this cultural norm is exacerbated further.
Four years ago, I was going out with this girl for a few weeks. It was a fairly casual relationship on both ends, and I was already considering breaking it off with her, as I was starting to notice some red flags not wholly dissimilar from certain of the ones that Mr. Greene in the OP would have been wiser to heed. One night we were at a party, we'd both taken ecstasy (although I don't believe we'd come up yet) and she abruptly asked me if I wanted to be her boyfriend. I did my best to let her down gently and told her that I didn't, but she became extremely upset and burst into tears. I tried to calm her down, but she was inconsolable and stormed off in a rage. Later that night she sent me a nasty message concluding with "I rated our sex 6/10 it's barely a pass."
I didn't rise to the bait - what could be gained from it? Obviously I didn't believe it was true (I mean, I would say that, wouldn't I): if I'm so crap in bed, why were you throwing yourself at me, why did you ask me to be your boyfriend? But even if it was true, the fact that she was bringing it up all of a sudden like this was such a transparently childish, spiteful thing to do that it immediately vindicated my decision not to pursue a serious committed relationship with her.
Frankly, I think this thing of "oh whatever, he was crap in bed anyway" is just the distaff counterpart to that thing where a guy asks a girl out via text, she turns him down, and he immediately replies "lol whatever bitch you ugly anyway". If she's ugly anyway, why did you ask her out, you dork? The sour grapes are particularly ripe at this time of year.
Yeah, the hoe maddening was indeed just sour grapes.
Her personal brand of Wonderfulness should be more than enough for any man to want to commit and give her Princess Treatment, so it must be @Folamh3 who’s the asshole for not recognising it, especially since he’s already smashed.
Male and female sexuality are supposed to be the same and evolutionary psychology is just a misogynistic redpill myth, yet women’s actions and reactions regularly reinforce the notion that, all else equal, casual sex is a W for the man and an L for the woman. You already banged her; you won, any ex post insults from her are just coping and seething.
On the bright side, at least she hasn’t retroactively accused you of rape. Plus, this is Bayesian reassurance that you’re reasonably well endowed, or else she would had called your dick small (more easily disproved to any potential third parties in text-screenshot court) instead of mid in bed (less easily disproved to any potential third parties in text-screenshot court).
It’s amusing—despite women supposedly being men’s equal in mental strength, emotional resilience, seriousness as adults—how normalised it is that young women will just have random crying fits and temper tantrums befitting a toddler. Not only is it normalised, they’re coddled for doing and enabled to do so.
If a girl bursts into tears in front of a guy at a party and storms off, he’s TA for having done something to upset her. If a guy bursts into tears in front of a girl at a party and storms off, he’s TA for being a psychopathic manchild who can’t control himself, psychologically (and likely physically) abusive.
You know I thought about tagging you in the post but I figured the content would summon you to the replies like the bat signal anyway
@Sloot, Gotham needs you.
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I'm flattered that you'd think of me (whoever you might be, as I don't recognize your username), but I'd be a suboptimal Person of Bat Involvement. I tend to comment relatively seldomly and belatedly (life, unfortunately, happens).
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Bro you've got me cracking up laughing in work.
I wasn't too concerned about it: no sexual partner (and I've had more than my fair share) has ever even suggested that I have a small penis. But still nice to know.
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It’s literally hormonal, men in middle age who have low t often get weepy before being prescribed hormones, so do mtf after being on them. I would reserve judgment until you get old and experience it for yourself.
There are anecdotes about middle-aged or older low-T men being supposedly somewhat weepier than they were in their youth as their testosterone decreases, but there's also the stereotype of men being increasingly stoic as they get older.
To the extent such anecdotes about middle-aged or older men are present with regard to the occasional weeping (if such weeping exists at all), they're nowhere to the frequency or severity of the recurring crying fits and temper tantrums of young women, even and/or especially by the own admission of young women.
You've but proposed a biological basis behind why young women shouldn't be taken seriously, although one that's not original.
When it comes to MtF, there's been at least one 4chan-adjacent copypasta to the tune of:
> some men declare they're actually women
> start acting like histrionic, childish retards obsessed with make-up and clothing
> what do they mean by this?
It does not appear to me the attestations of MtF would alleviate any alleged judgment cast upon young women. If anything, it'd be the opposite.
As you well know, mtf trains are far more likely to be obsessed with 4x strategy games and computer programming than they are with actually feminine interests.
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If you're claiming that random crying fits are caused by hormones, it just seems to me that you're just saying that the part at the beginning of that paragraph:
is actually not true, for a biological reason.
Maybe, but powerful men are disproportionately older and so more likely to have that same weepiness resulting from lower t.
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Listen, sonny, those heartstring-tugging commercials pack a wallop when you've dealt with the subject matter like serious illness, having a parent with dementia, etc. $REASONS. Kindly remove yourself from my lawn! Now if you'll excuse me, that cloud over there is asking for a piece of my mind...
Mumbles under his breath about how nickels used to be called bees
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Considering pop music is written by swedes, obviously not.
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Taylor Swift is neither Jewish nor a Zoomer, but you're correct: every single one of her songs is about exactly this. And she's been Top 40 for over a decade, so you turn on the radio (yeah, implying zoomers use radio, but this is true on random streaming sites) and you'll usually hear one within the hour.
Alternately: "cuntry music".
Which is kind of interesting, considering the traditional standard is that women are generally more embarrassed by bad sex than men, where men would be more likely than women to be extra proud of the fact it happened in the first place. But then again, this is the age of competitive simping (whether the above is correlated or causative, I couldn't say), so the fact the man couldn't satisfy the woman is the more salient point.
They throw literal bags of money at "woman who doesn't hate you"-as-a-service products. Unfortunately for real women, technology makes this easy to scale. And that's ignoring the AIs.
Pop country is more likely to be about finding happiness in a committed relationship regardless of the gender of the singer. That is a fully generalizable statement and does not need a baseline to compare to, btw.
‘Outlaw country’ and ‘red dirt’ music usually have a male singer who might be singing a breakup song, but never about bad sex, and is still more likely to be singing about a committed relationship(in this case usually explicitly marriage), although non-relationship topics are also more common than breakup songs.
I’m not sure what you’re exactly referring to here.
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This is not even a remotely accurate characterization of her lyrical content.
If you're tied up about it specifically needing to be about the sex act itself, sure.
That doesn't not make every Taylor Swift song the PG-rated version of that.
The specific claim was "men are bad at sex and women are better off pleasuring themselves", so that seems pretty constrained to the sex act itself. Broadening it to "general dissatisfaction with men" seems like goalpost-moving.
Yeah, I have no idea why that expectation would be related at all to the collective consciousness or male willingness to unironically commit to a woman considering most of the popular media is all about celebrating women doing literally this.
If sex and relationships had nothing to do with each other, maybe.
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No, she literally has a ton of songs that are not about break-ups, not about disappointment or angst about a former partner, etc. This idea that all of her songs are breakup songs is nothing but a meme, assisted by the fact that she’s, well, had a lot of breakups in her personal life. It’s not hard to look up her lyrics, though, and a large chunk of them are actually something close to the polar opposite of what you’re suggesting.
what you're naturally going to converge on if you turn on any random Spotify playlist. It's not so much a meme as it is what actually gets played; I have no problem admitting that not all country songs are some variation of the guy's wife/dog/truck leaving him, but it's most of what actually makes it onto the airwaves.
Huh? Literally some of her biggest hits are not breakup songs. “You Belong With Me”. “Mine”. “Love Story”. “Shake It Off”. “Delicate”. “Wildest Dreams”. “End Game”. “Lavender Haze”. “Fearless”. “Anti-Hero”. All of these are either very sincere love songs, or about something other than relationships entirely.
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I didn't argue this. In hindsight I should have said "preferred" arrangement instead of "ideal". I do think monogamy is the best arrangement for a man in the long run, and definitely for civilization at large.
I find "pornbrained" is generally a bad-faith, loaded word used to demonize aspects of male sexuality that have existed forever. I can only see it being accurately applied to an obsession with very niche fetishes. Ironically I think Christian conservatives are the most likely to agree that men are not disposed towards monogamy and that's why we need religious institutions to enforce it. I remember Christian apologist William Lane Craig being asked about free will and the interviewer gave an example like "what if a man says 'I'm genetically predisoposed towards wanting to sleep with every beautiful woman I see so I can't be held liable for the sin of adultery'" and Craig's response was "I think most men are, but that's not an excuse for sin".
The church is where the people who know they are sick go. Thus it is understandable that they might tend to over-emphasize certain ways of dealing with what made/makes them sick in the first place- thus "porn-brained" (and complaints [generally more made by women and the old] about "hardcore" pornography, as opposed to anything that isn't missionary, read exactly the same way to me).
The problem with this sin is that by addressing it in this way, the Church is [popularly, as well as in matter of fact] no longer in any position to indict people who are smart enough to realize (1) what cheating is, (2) why that would hurt your wife, (3) why that's bad. Ain't exactly rocket science, though I'm aware of some men who genuinely aren't self-conscious enough to know that, or tell the difference between the acceptable and unacceptable ways to hurt one's wife (because some of them need to be done as tactical considerations or as negotiating tactics when husband and wife interests aren't aligned- which, I will point out, is how cheating is generally couched).
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In this context, porn brained alludes to the porn watching habit of trying to find the right video that will be even hotter than the one before, always chasing the highest high. It's putting too much value on this highest high. This can be followed by a huge low (Guilt after cheating), or can never be found at all. It's a fantasy I think many cheaters and Poly people chase.
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A lot of Americans are fat. do you think their environment (cars, desk jobs, unlimited cheap candy and ice cream) might have something to do with that? Do you roll your eyes at "healthy at any size"?
Yes to all of the above, but the urge to consume sugar, salt, and fat was always there. Nobody accuses anyone who thinks ice cream is tastier than salad of being DairyQueenbrained. We rightfully discourage actually overindulging the urge because it has health/appearance consequences.
I view "porn-brained" the same way. Men have a remarkably strong sex drive, always have and likely always will. We currently have an environment that supercharges that drive to woeful effect, and some people like it that way and think it should be the norm forever, because they confuse single-factor, short-term gratification with Eudemonia.
In that case, I think the term "porn-brained" is misleading, as it implies that men behave a certain way because of excessive porn consumption.
Urge to consume sugar, salt and fat is natural, cultural oversupply doesn't just make people fat and unhealthy, it makes people who think being fat and unhealthy is a good thing.
Urge to mate as much as possible with a variety of women is always there, cultural oversupply inflates this drive out of proportion, and some people think the overinflated drive is the natural state and a good thing.
In this matter, I speak from personal experience.
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Then we’re only disagreeing on semantics. I’ve only heard “pornbrained” used by feminists and sex-negative Christians to label most men’s natural preferences for youth, beauty, and variety as a modern aberration of the Natural Order. But you and @rincer_of_wind are clearly using it differently.
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These are not mutually incompatible claims.
No they're not. Not even half of marriages end in divorce and thats with the people divorcing often doing so multiple times.
It may well be that long marriages are less sexually fulfilling but that doesn't mean they're not fulfilling the needs of the people involved. Sex is hardly the only need and it's something that generally becomes less important as people age.
This figure necessarily is significantly lagging.
Do you have e.g. actuarial-table-style divorce data within the past five years? I'd love to see it if so - all I can find is raw rates which don't say much on their own.
Divorce rates have been trending down since the nineties, why would you expect that trend to reverse?
An addendum: I see many plausible pushes to underreport divorce stats, and very few plausible pushes to overreport divorce stats. And one common approach to misleading with statistics is precisely to publish (only) the subset of the statistical measures which agree with the outcome you want.
Hence: Do you have e.g. actuarial-table-style divorce data within the past five years?
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Marriage rates have also been trending down, and divorces tend to be frontloaded, i.e. higher rates earlier in a marriage.
All of this combines to make it absolutely possible that simultaneously:
a) Raw divorce rates per 1000 people per year have dropped.
b) People who marry young are more likely to get divorced.
This is the "raw rates which don't say much on their own" I mention in my prior comment.
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I probably shoud have rephrased it as "ONLY some sort of shackle". We have no disagreement.
Maybe. Its not as clear cut though. There's probably a convincing case that for >65 year olds polyamory/lemon parties is the optimal happiness strategy. They just aren't bothered enough to try.
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