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which xianxia would you consider one of the good ones? My faves are anything from Er Gen unironically.
I still don't know if people say Er Gen is good unironically or not, though your comment updates me towards the former.
I would say Reverend Insanity, even in its unfinished state, is a 10/10 novel. Contender for best novel I've ever read in fact. I'm trying to hold off re-reading it until my memory fades enough for it to feel fresh again.
Forty Millenniums of Cultivation is a good one, an 8/10 IMO. It was good enough for me to get frustrated reading awful MTL and then track down raws and translate them with modern SOTA LLMs that do a better job.
I never got very far into Lord of the Mysteries, but by all accounts it's supposed to be very good.
Maybe I should have mentioned what I have read so maybe we can get some wilder recommendations from everyone. My top tier list was pretty much mentioned by others but I'll put it here:
Er Gen was my gateway xianxia so his writing and tropes are very dear to me personally. Also I think he does world-building descriptions so much better than other authors and the semi-philosophical discussions just hits the sweet spot for me. I would rank his works Pursuit of Truth (or Beseech the Devil) >= Renegade Immortal > I Shall Seal the Heavens > the others.
I think the best power systems are from Cuttlefish Loves Diving, and that Embers Ad Infinitum is a way more complete work than LotM. But I think LotM moments are way more hype and satisfy more of the power-fantasy.
I think the best Xianxia's I've read is without a doubt either Tales of Herding Gods or Ze Tian Ji. I felt like I was becoming a better person reading those two works. Maybe the most contemplative is Pivot of the Sky though I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Some other good ones are like World of Cultivation or Top Tier Providence.
I actually don't like I-Eat-Tomatoes works, I think they're too repetitive.
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Is there an elevator pitch for Reverend Insanity, or is it one of the "anything would be a spoiler, just read 30 chapters" ones?
I see you read a lot of xianxia, so actually it would be interesting to get a pitch on the whole genre. From what I heard of it, it's... I wouldn't like to say "powerslop", but it has the reputation, you know? "Ascending through universes" this, "ruthless MC that"... isekai so you don't have to figure out an in-universe backstory for the MC, "ruthless MC" so you don't have to write the struggle between personal scruples and the next tasty powerup, 100 gorillion chapters because the author didn't bother thinking of any containable scale in favor of numbers going ever up... along with the Jumpchain genre, it feels like not so much "literature" as "concentrated trope fentanyl to inject directly into storyteller brain". (I wonder if the Chinese who were brought up on xianxia think Western fantasy is just "herojourneyslop".)
Of course, the above is all an impression gathered by osmosis rather than reading one of those doorstoppers that make Worm look like a leaflet. But I did play Tale of Immortal. Please tell me how wrong or how correct I am.
Here's my elevator pitch for reading xianxia: If one is going to read fantasy why not read stories of the ubermensch fantasy?
self_made_human already touched on this with Reverend Insanity, that the protagonist of that story is not a good person by Western moral standards. But I want to convey the sense that the whole genre is touched with a hint of this everywhere. What this means is a very refreshing way of looking at humans and society and power-level. Chinese xianxia protagonists don't shy away from doing "bad" things to get ahead. They lie, they cheat, they steal. Chinese protags are refreshingly candid that they only care about the people around them and the people they can reach. But they won't go out of their way to solve other people's problems if it's too hard or too costly. There isn't much drama of self-guilt or shame. Chinese protags don't have time to wallow in regret cause they always are either in the next danger or are preparing for the next advancement. This is not to say the Chinese protags don't have a moral system, they do, they are just more utilitarian, more cleared-eye (imo) about the dog-eat-dog world they are in. When the time comes though, balls to the walls, desperation, loved ones in danger, the Chinese protag can be just as hot-blooded and idealistic as a Shonen protag. And they follow through. No bullshit talk-no-jutsu, no everyone becomes friends with the next arc. We've got family annihilation, torture in body and soul, punishment that follows reincarnation, etc.. In a world where characters are always being revisioned or subverted or re-thought or "live long enough to become the villain" and back again, the directness and forcefulness of Chinese protagonists is surprisingly Nietzschean when they say "I hate you, I will never let go of grudges, I will transcends the heavens to then come back and get what I think is due".
Of course, the genre isn't entirely like this. There are some really noblebright stories out there such as the 40 Millennium of Cultivation mentioned before. There are some quite feelgood power-fantasy slop out there as well. For me, when I just started out, I was only excited that there is an entire new "medium" of stories I can now consume, and only slowly came to realize the differences between Western works and Chinese works.
Perhaps I'm just not fed up on Western works enough, then. When I see an amoral protagonist, they bore me. There is no wondering what they'd choose to do, just pick the most effective option and author willing they'll do it, or fail and come back 100 chapters later. If everyone can only be evil or stupid (or stupidly evil), they all blend together and can only be indeed differentiated by cultivation ranks and sect hierarchy position.
On the other side in Pale which I shilled a few times, there are various evil characters - some more successful than protagonists, some less, some get their comeuppance and others don't, but the facets of evil make them interesting. Although I concur that the protagonists of Pale are probably way too saccharinely self-righteous by the standards of the average ruthless MC enjoyer. But then again, they're regular teens, not ones isekaied into by their 500 year old variants (another Reverend Insanity cheat that already begins to grate on me in the first chapters).
Right right, but that's the thing with the Chinese protagonists, they are moral and have their own moral system, they're just not Western morals.
Yes. Sometimes also there are Western works where protagonists have a moral system that's not the modern Western morals. I'm specifically dissing the explicitly amoral sociopath protagonists like the one Reverend Insanity is advertized for.
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Imagine being a Pokémon trainer. Except your body is the pokeball.
"Gu" are mystical creatures, often resembling bugs of some description, that can be captured and tamed, then put to use. They range in power from something you'd find in tall grass outside the starter town to godlike entities that control physics and metaphysics.
(This is a highly unusual setup for Xianxia)
The protagonist is evil. That's not a word I use lightly, he's sociopathic, and even before the story began, he had painstakingly amassed a respectable degree of power, a lot of it through skullduggery, deceit and violence.
Then, through a combination of sheer luck and grit, he managed to catch a Legendary Pokémon, a one-of-a-kind rarity. This attracted the attention of his enemies, who launched an attack on him, while citing minor petty crimes such as the murder of several million innocent people. He was outnumbered, overpowered, and forced to commit suicide while using the Pokémon.
Which turns out to be Time Travel-mon. It brings him back in time to when he was just a teenager, but with the knowledge he had before if not the power. He takes this an opportunity to start over from scratch, but making full use of the knowledge he came in with.
(It's a long elevator ride)
The protagonist is one of a kind. An absolute sociopath, but charming. Intelligent, ruthless and more shameless than words than do justice to. And hilarious, for what it's worth.
The levels of utter shamelessness and depravity he dares plumb will shock both other characters and you, the reader. Think a genocidal warlord nominating himself for the Nobel Peace prize on the grounds there's nobody left to make war levels. He's not psychopathic, just a sociopath with none of the internal flinches that keep normal humans in check. He won't go out of his way to kill you, unless he has something to gain from it. I suppose "amoral" is a better term than evil.
The author is a mad-man. The levels of plotting, counter-plotting and recursive escalation he can hold in his head will astound you. Not a single Chekov's gun will remain unfired on the mantle. You will never find yourself screaming at the characters, wondering why they don't use an obvious ability or trick when apt. And you'll be blind-sided by what they come up with, but never in hindsight will you think it's an ass-pull. That's difficult enough in any novel, let alone Xianxia.
And don't worry about the time travel. It's a power not used lightly, and fickle. The author never uses it as a get out of jail free card.
You are correct. Most of Xianxia is slop with no redeeming qualities, for the reasons you've mentioned.
But as I say elsewhere, most novels in any genre are barely worth reading. If you randomly search all Kindle titles, good luck in finding good novels.
That being said, the ones I recommended are diamonds in a pile of shit. Some combination of world building, character writing and respect for the reader's intelligence elevate them to soaring heights compared to their peers.
Don't pick a random novel in the genre and throw yourself in. That way lies pain and insanity. But look at English-speaking fan recommendations, and you'll fare much better. And when you do find a novel, you'll have a chonker that keeps you busy for months even if you read as fast as I do. That's always a perk in my books!
I'm giving it a whirl. I must say, so far the repetitive exposition and tell-don't-show doesn't feel like it respects my intelligence as a reader.
I want to once again shill Pale if you don't mind that the shameless will-shock-you villains are not the main characters of that story.
Added to the list of works I promise to get around to reading, though I've already worked up a backlog from reccs here haha.
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I've only learned about xianxia through this thread, and I'm intrigued. Have you read "Cradle" by Will Wight? Is that "western xianxia"? How does it compare to Reverend Insanity?
I'd call Cradle "power fantasy slop", but reading stuff like that is my guilty pleasure. Maybe I should give the "eastern OGs" a try...
Cradle is kind of xianxia but it doesn't capture the full essence of it. It feels like the characters are white, only pretending to be Asian. It's an emulation, a later Cradle scene give me a certain Marvel vibe as the good guys all portal in for a really big fight. That's appropriate, it's a Western book for Western audiences. Wight couldn't get away with race wars, sexism and what would surely be considered transphobia/homophobia like authors can in China.
Reverend Insanity is a different beast, you can tell that they're actually Chinese, playing these weird-to-us mindgames, reciting poems and so on. There's a certain level of sincerity in what happens. It feels a bit more like an open-world game in contrast to Cradle, where our MC is going through set-piece after set-piece, clearing chapter after chapter to reach his goals. For example:
In Cradle the tournament arc takes a whole book, as our heroes march on through to get the mcguffin, training and powering up, developing their character as necessary. They might cheat a little but the other side cheats harder and still loses, they are the bad guys after all.
In RI there are two tournament arcs. In the latter our MC is called in as back-up for his partner-of-convenience, ignores the call for a few weeks and only shows up (on his 4th fake identity) with a sneaky, devious, obnoxiously dishonourable plan to kill this one guy and make off with his soul and looted corpse, even if he has to get kicked out of the sect to execute the plan. The tournament wasn't over a mcguffin, it was about relieving political tensions from an earlier crisis and the big players giving lip service to Longevity Heaven's Edict. Our MC is not developing his character and heroically trusting in the power of friendship, he's an assassin ruthlessly optimizing his chance at success. Then he decides to strike while the iron is hot and ambush a few more people elsewhere before heading off to kill and impersonate someone on the other side of the world.
There's also a thematic level too with the Ren Zu interludes, it's not without literary merit IMO. Later on there's a big struggle over fate, whether the natural order decreed by fate is good, whether it inhibits freedom or protects humanity/the world, what sacrifices are needed to uphold it... It's a reflection of Cradle in that respect, though our MC takes the matter into his own hands.
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I haven't read Cradle myself, but I have heard a range of opinions on it. If it was a video game on Steam, I reckon it would be "mostly positive". On the other hand, RI has rave reviews, and I am vociferous in my endorsement.
I do expect that authentic Chinese Xianxia would probably be better, a lot of Western homages don't quite have the same charm.
That's enough for me to give it a try! After 15 minutes of research and several false starts, I've now settled on the Zelsky translation. I found an ePub with 2334 chapters. Does that sound about right, or do you recommend something different?
Eyeballing it, looks fine! Keep in mind the story is technically unfinished due to CCP meddling, but I'd say 90% of the story was done, and you'll only miss out on a bit of closure. If you share a link, I can see if the translation is the one I've read, which was very good.
Cool, thanks! My ePub is identical to this.
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Do you know where I can read such an updated 40MC translation?
I started it ages ago and was enjoying the premise, but wow.
I'm afraid there isn't a site with updated translations out there.
What I personally did was find Chinese raws:
https://www.piaotia.com/html/7/7095/6107291.html
When you notice the default English translation that's on most sites goes to shit, start copying and pasting from here to to any decent LLM and ask for a translation. I'd love to share mine, but I never actually saved them, just threw chapter after chapter in there as I went along.
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I tried Reverend Insanity, and even allowing for a rough translation, the writing was crap.
But this has been my experience with almost every progression fantasy/wuxia novel I've tried. I didn't like Cradle either. I think they're just not for me. But I don't understand how people aren't bothered by tedious exposition about Gu levels written in head-hopping inconsistent tense.
I just took a look and read the first chapter... oof. You're not wrong.
I'm not a literary snob, I can appreciate trashy webnovels or light novels. But this is breaking so many rules of good writing it's just impossible to enjoy. Telling instead of showing, inconsistent tense, too many adverbs, group dialogue where it's not clear who's speaking, no paragraphs, passive voice, and some parts just seem to contradict the other parts. It reads like the author was just brainstorming ideas for cool powers and fight scenes and never got around to actually writing the novel.
That's a bit harsh, given that it was a translation. I presume it flows better in Chinese. As people have elaborated on above, it's a hard language to translate and a lot of nuance doesn't carry over.
Part of the reason for a (small) info-dump is that most of it isn't really relevant to the story. Even though he was isekai'd from Earth, it doesn't make a difference in his life beyond his ability to plagiarise classic Chinese literature and make people mistake him for a precocious genius.
To be fair, it could have been dispensed with entirely, but it merits as much verbiage as it has plot-relevance.
Well, the translation is all we've got to judge it by. But it doesn't read like someone struggling with translation, it just reads like a fanfic.
It is possible to translate Chinese to English and have it sound good. "the Art of War" got popular because many people thought it sounded cool. A British guy in the 40s won a literary prize for translating (and abridging) Journey to the West. And those are written in Classical Chinese, which is even more difficult to translate than modern Mandarin!
I didn't really like the 3 body problem either, but at least I could tell it had a professional author and editing.
Yeah, I thought it was bad sci-fi (if you judge it fairly, not putting your thumb on the scale because it's basically the only breakout Chinese sci-fi novel that exists). But it wasn't badly written, at least by the standards of English sci-fi.
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Mother of learning has better writing than Cradle, though I dont know if I would consider it a proper progression fantasy.
Give Shadowslave a try as well. I think its better because the author is actually writing in English instead of it being a translation.
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Junior, you dare? Kowtow and break all your limbs, and I will leave you with an intact corpse.
Ahem. There's no accounting for taste, but I still think you missed out, or just didn't hold on long enough for the story to get its claws in you. It's an unfortunate Xianxia meme that people will tell you to stick to a story for a hundred chapters because then it gets good, but if memory serves it was around 30 in that RI had me leaning forward. I really can't recommend it enough.
I dunno, maybe I'll try again, but I hate books/series where the fans say "Oh, the first few hundred pages are mediocre but then it gets good." Any other Wuxia/progression fantasies to recommend?
Had the same experience with Jim Butcher's Dresden Files. I read the first two books and was underwhelmed. People say it gets good around book four, and my reaction is "So I have to read 2-3 crappy books before I start enjoying it?"
Actually, for Dresden Files don't bother reading books 1 through 6. Just pick up book 7 and read in order from there. I did this by accident (it was what the library had at the time) and it's what the author recommends. If you fall in love with the series, then you can go back and read the first books if you want to know what happens.
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I recommend "Beware of Chicken", here's a royal road link. It's kind of a parody of the genre, so should be a lot easier to get into.
Edit: Nvm, the author had the brilliant idea to hide the novel behind a paywall. You can use the wayback machine to view the old chapters but it's a huge pain in the ass and probably not worth overall.
BoC is now stubbed. Chapter 4 up to book 5 are gone from Royal Road.
My bad, I didn't realize. I've edited the original message with a link to the wayback machine and won't be recommending that author in the future.
That's a rather harsh assessment. Removing a book from its original free location after publishing it on a paid platform is a common practice. I think it's explicitly required by Amazon's self-publishing terms.
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The Wayback Machine is your friend. I'm currently reading cached copies to my wife in the evenings. I also should mention that the audio books are excellent for long road trips.
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Haven't read BoC, but a LitRPG parody I quite enjoyed was "This Quest is Bullshit!".
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I have mixed opinions of BOC. It has a strong start, but ends up becoming repetitive once it keeps playing up its core shtick. Not great, not terrible.
Yeah, I felt the same way.
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Dresden's writing and series as a whole gets much better from book 3-4. You could just start from there; its not like you are gonna miss much.
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I paused for a month around book 2. Mostly because I guessed who the big bad is from the beginning.
Third starts better. I would strongly recommend you the repairman jack series as something in similar vein, but better executed. It starts as a thrillers with some supernatural elements and then moves on.
The Wikipedia page says the repairman jack series restarted with Legacies - should I read The Tomb first or just start at Legacies?
I would recommend to read the tomb. it is a nice horror. It is not critical to the next books, but there are some references.
The keep is also nice to read, but once again not critical.
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Already suggested Forty Millenniums of Cultivation somewhere in the thread, which I'd say is a pretty solid novel and one that combines sci-fi with Cultivation in a manner that few stories tackle. There's a bit of Warhammer 40k influence, if the name doesn't make it obvious, but it runs only skin deep.
I don't really read much progression fantasy in general, but probably the best I've read would be Worth The Candle.
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