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PaperclipPerfector  5d ago (text post)   1810 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for November 29, 2024

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Is anyone else surprised that they never excised “chief” from modern PC English? As in chief executive officer? I can’t think of any other context for chief other than an Indian chief. Maybe some military ranks? But it’s all based off Indians.

Thoughts?

It's an old word. England had a Chief Justiciar back in 1106. Native American tribal chiefs got the name because of their similarity to Scottish clan chiefs.

Fun fact: Tycoon comes from the Japanese word taikun, and was first used in English by Commodore Perry to describe Lincoln. It's probably the first Japanese loan word in the English language.

Chief comes from french 'chef', in its original meaning of 'boss'(it's cognate with Spanish jefe and the modern day job title is a contraction of 'chef de cuisine', meaning kitchen manager). It doesn't have any etymological ties to amerinds and has always been used in lots of not-amerind-related ways.

French chef comes from Latin caput, meaning 'head'.

Natives have no cultural power in the US, they have some limited local power in a couple of states at most.

Don't confuse people who exercise the power with people who are nominally this power exercise is benefitting. The Supreme Dictator of the People's Democratic Republic maybe nominally is ruling for the benefit of the people, but he has all the power and the people have none. You can be a lily-white man and still exercise power "on behalf of oppressed minorities" - if you're lucky of course.

Tell that to the commanders.

They were wiped out in the tidal wave of black identity politics that swept the nation in 2020. Native Americans themselves had almost nothing to do with it.

This goes too far - "tribal knowledge" is considered verboten in the most PC firms (ask me how i know).

It really has nothing to do with cultural power just as it's rarely black people pushing for "blacklist" to be blackballed.

(ask me how i know)

Ok. How do you know?

I have the misfortune of professionally (well, it's not in my job description, but still) being on the receiving end of products of the DEI consultant industry such as mandatory trainings and style guides with verboten phrases and focus group approved substitutes.

You have my sympathies.

It's tangentially related, but I'd like to take this opportunity to share one of my favourite bits of linguistic trivia.

The Irish word for "President" is Uachtarán*. (The President is a largely ceremonial role: the leader of the country is the Taoiseach, the Irish equivalent of the Prime Minister in the UK and other countries with a Westminster-style parliament.) The word uachtarán was originally used for the chief of a tribe or village in pre-colonial Ireland. The President's official residence is called Áras an Uachtaráin.

When we had to learn Irish in school, we learned the words for cream (uachtar***) and ice cream (uachtar reoite**** - literally "frozen cream"). I always wondered about the connection between "uachtar* and uachtaráin, as they're obviously from the same root, but I only found out last year. Can you guess?

Uachtar literally translates as "top". It is used to refer to "cream" because the cream floats to the top of the milk. By extension, the uachtarán is the person at the top of the tribe/village/country.

*Pronounced "OOK-tar-awn".

** Pronounced "TEE-shuck".

*** Pronounced "OOK-tar".

**** Pronounced "OOK-tar ROW-it-cha".

My guess: Cream of the crop? Cream is usually important, maybe somebody who was allowed to drink it?

EDIT: cool, makes sense

I think it's because the 'chief' in CEO is an adjective rather than a noun. The brain processes the two categories of word differently, even if they are homonyms.

I wonder if this explains the bizarre reaction by some feminists to women being called "females," despite not having a problem with them being labeled as being "female." I've seen a number of weird, twisting explanations for why the former is "dehumanizing" or whatever, but all of them appeared as pure motivated reasoning, especially given that no man I've ever heard of has had any problem with being called "a male." Could very well be indeed pure motivated reasoning, meant to put a veneer of justification over what's, at heart, a pure visceral response.

More or less.

Well, if by “visceral response” you mean “heuristic.” Hearing someone choose the word “females” usually says a lot about their worldview. It’s the same sentiment that makes most men cringe at “male fantasy” or “male privilege”: you immediately know what you’re getting.

When I've seen this come up it's been in the setting of what women perceive as low status males being misogynist, however their is one community that uses females to refer to women a lot - low class/income inner city blacks, one of the groups that is most disrespectful to women.

I think a lot of the incoherence is stemming from that.

especially given that no man I've ever heard of has had any problem with being called "a male."

I'm surprised to hear that, since in recent years "male" and especially the dreaded "cis het white male" seems like something of a slur, and I'm not sure in what other contexts people would call a specific man or boy "a male." Calling oneself "a male" comes across as an apology.

"male role model" is probably the big one.

Oh yeah, that one is positive.

Along those lines, I guess a female boss or CEO sounds neutral to me, and like something I might say.

Both of these are used as adjectives It's the nouns that have bad reputations.

Yes, but the reason it feels more natural is that by saying ‘female’ in that context it was initially (and perhaps remains) a way to divorce the baggage ‘woman’ carries as ‘nothing bad about them’, scientific, natural. Mistake theory. ‘Woman’ had negative connotations in that setting.

By contrast, ‘mayle’ is intended to invoke the opposite end of that and meant to imply science and nature are against how they generally are. Conflict theory. ‘Men’ had neutral to positive connotations in that setting.

I've seen 'the group of males over there' and the like. Or 'why do males do x thing'. You're right, though, it doesn't seem regularly used for a specific referent.

And I suspect there is just a gender difference in how easy it is to get offended. Men just get offended by stuff like that less. Everyone makes fun of 'Oh he's got his panties in a wad over being called Mr Whatever instead of Bob' but its far more acceptable for a woman.

I think 'females' is usually used to refer to animals, that's why many people don't like it. Men and boys are just less sensitive.

That's one of the justifications I've heard, but it just doesn't strike me as based on anything real. It's often used to refer to animals, but not in a way that distinguishes non-human animals from human ones, like how referring to someone as "it" might. It appears to me as motivated reasoning.

Ok, now that someone’s brought up its use in black culture- which the women who most strongly object the term would associate with poor treatment of women- that’s probably the real reason. Obviously the ‘it sounds like you’re talking about dogs’ is a bit more acceptable to say in public, though.

Today I learned there are women who are offended by the term female. Really we are living in interesting times.

Think of it as the difference between 女 and 雌

I'm a native English speaker but do know the words you mention here I'd argue mesu (female) like osu (male), is an idiosyncratic use only for animals in a way that male and female is not in English. Much hay has been made in feminist circles of Mulvey's term "the male gaze" in cinema (and elsewhere), to say nothing of the general term "male chauvinism." I haven't heard any men upset with the term. It seems unexpectedly childish for women to be upset over the use of female--like an adult woman I know strongly dislikes the word moist among other words. But that's just a mild word aversion. She doesn't try to justify it.

I'd argue mesu (female) like osu (male), is an idiosyncratic use only for animals

You would argue wrongly. Someone hasn’t read enough filth in the internet :)

めす and more rarely おす can be used in relation to humans but are demeaning and/or sexual precisely because they are more commonly used for animals.

For obvious reasons, feminists tend to be sensitive about being associated too closely with their biological nature. Male and female have much more subtle associations in English, but I think it's ultimately the same thing. Men have traditionally leant into their physicality, so I don't think it works in reverse.

I don't agree with anything you're saying here, except that I concede that people may be using メス and オス for humans in a pejorative way--that simply illustrates my point, that these terms are for animals, and thus to use them with humans is considered rude.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say

For obvious reasons, feminists tend to be sensitive about being associated too closely with their biological nature.

What are the obvious reasons? I know many women who consider themselves feminists of various stripe and I wouldn't say any of them are sensitive about being associated with biological femaleness. In any way.

It doesn't seem like a majority but I've seen not-just-generally-offended-by-stuff women dislike the term being applied to themselves because it's usually a descriptor for animals.

Yes, and that's exactly why women-generally-offended-at-everything have no problems using it for men.

I imagine it in a Ferengi voice. Or with a similar vibe to "birthing parent."

I imagine it in a Ferengi voice.

They let their females wear clothing!

I watched a lot of DS9 as a kid, but I default to imagining female-as-a-noun in a working-class black voice because it's in common usage among black people in my area (same goes for male-as-a-noun). Why this is, I could not say.

Yeah, it's definitely the crowd of women who would say, "uh, you mean women?" to either referring to 'vagina havers' or 'females' and would strongly dislike either being used as a noun for themselves.

I had the same thought and looked into this a few years back and found that it long predated European contact with American Indians. But historical context didn't matter for niggards or sniggerers, so maybe it's just a matter of time.

Niggardly isn't that common and there are plenty of alternatives.

Chief is in the top 3000 most common words, so trying to get rid of it is much more difficult.

The upsetting one is "tar baby" because it's actually a useful concept without a good alternative.

I believe it originally referred to the leaders of Scottish clans.

Wow! That’s interesting. Learned something new here.

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