This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The menorah is a more ancient symbol of Judaism than the Star of David. It's the symbol of the Mossad... Saying it is "a minor religious symbol" is not only untrue but doesn't even challenge the point I'm making. It is a religious symbol of Judaism (can you name any symbols more important than the menorah? You say "the Torah" which is a book and not even a symbol per se...) so it doesn't belong on public lands if our laws were fairly interpreted.
Mossad has a menorah on their logo because Israel has a menorah on their emblem/coat of arms.
The real question is, what does the seven branch menorah have to do with Hanukkah?
More options
Context Copy link
I'm trying to challenge your statement:
I don't see how you can argue that a "traditional Christmas display" (such as the angels/trumpets linked in the OP, or the still common nativity scenes) is "fully secularized" while a Menorah is not. My point is that the Menorah has no more significance in Judaism than these symbols have in Christianity, and I'd even argue it is much more minor than something like the nativity.
Christmas is fully integrated as part of the general Civic Religion. Every atheist I know celebrates Christmas with a Christmas tree etc. I agree angels are more debatable, sure ban them too. But a Christmas tree is a symbol of a civic ritual, Christianity will decline but Christmas will continue to grow bigger than ever.
A Menorah has far more religious symbolism than a Christmas tree, which is clearly inspired from Pagan rituals and has no symbolic relation to Christianity at all.
A Christmas tree is genuinely a secular symbol, a menorah is not a secular symbol. The menorah is literally the centerpiece of the official emblem of the State of Israel, it is not secular at all.
Christmas trees came about in the 1500s in the Baltics and are decidedly Lutheran in origin. The notion that Christmas is merely a rebranded pagan holiday (Yule or Saturnalia) is anti-Christian propaganda.
Other than Santa Claus*, Reindeer, and Snowflakes, all major Christmas symbols are directly Christian (decorated Christmas trees, Angels, Star of Bethlehem)
*(and even then Saint Nicholas, is obviously, a link to Christianity)
I think this is bullshit. I've read the arguments, I know what historians think about this and I'm still convinced their arguments are weak.
There is no logical reason you would decorate an evergreen tree to celebrate the birth of the son of god, which happened in a cave and involved no trees at all. The christmas log is an even better example, somehow there's local customs, spread from the uk to turkey relating to a magical chunk of wood. Where does that come from? Turns out, nowhere. It just starts getting mentioned out of nowhere. Same thing with the christmas tree, at some point it just starts existing for no logical reason.
I think there are two explanations, one is that they are pre-christian traditions that survived underground until they re-emerged at some point (it doesn't even have to be that much underground, it just needs to be a topic that wasn't recorded in writing). Or they are new traditions that don't have anything to do with christianity, a sort of repaganization of europe.
It's hard to tell which is the case because the christian middle ages didn't bother keeping a record of pagan european tradition.
More options
Context Copy link
I don't think Christmas is a rebranded pagan holiday that is now Christian, it's a rebranded Christian holiday that is now pagan. The mythos around Santa Claus and Christmas, very little of it has anything to do with Christianity. A Christmas tree holds no religious significance, it marks participation in the dyonisian winter festivities that have always featured in Indo-European civilization with many commonalities. The entire Christmas aesthetic is fundamentally pagan and hyperborean, with the Nativity as the exception. The rest of it is absolutely secular.
Santa Claus is not a saint, he's an immortal pagan god, and a goofy god at that.
I get my mother a Santa Claus figurine each year.
I will be shopping for the "IMMORTAL PAGAN GOD" version this year. Thank you.
Don't worry, you have plenty of examples to choose from.
More options
Context Copy link
There's actually a lesson there... pagans viewed their gods like we view Santa Claus. We don't "worship" Santa Claus in that we formulate religion around having a personal relationship with Santa Claus, like we need Santa to redeem our fallen souls, and we don't demand that participants in Christmas literally believe in the Santa lore.
The Christian perspective and worship of Jesus is not like the way the Romans worshipped their gods. The Romans had collective civic rituals, lore, superstitions, festivities surrounding their gods, much like we do Santa Claus, but they did not demand a belief in their literal existence and stories like Christians do for Jesus. It was about Civic Ritual.
Christmas is fundamentally pagan precisely because the way that we honor Santa Claus as a benevolent god in lore, myth, family ritual, and civic society mirrors the way the Romans honored their own gods and stands in complete contrast to the Christian worship of Jesus Christ.
They demanded civic rituals precisely because they believed in their gods' literal existence. "Ivppitter is going to punish our city for insufficient piety if we don't get our newest conquests to venerate him along with their own god, what was his name, Iehova?"
They did not believe that every popular myth or portrayal of Jupiter was literally real like Christian belief in Jesus. Their belief in their gods was more of a system of organizing archetypes and drawing tribal lines that organized civic behavior, in exactly the way you have suggested. There was actually a basis for associating the decline of civic ritual with civilizational decline as well. That was the functionality of the religious order.
If you don't get a Christmas tree and decorate your house to venerate the coming of Santa, you're a Scrooge, that dynamic is more similar to the pagan system of civic ritual than "pray to Jesus Christ to actually save your personal soul from eternal damnation, because he literally resurrected to absolve you of your sins in the eyes of Yahweh".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
You've never written a letter to Santa, or been told to be good or else you'll be on the naughty list?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Oh, so it’s a state symbol. Problem solved.
Really, the easiest route here is just to get atheists placing menorahs. Then it will have the “fully integrated” status.
It's a religious symbol embraced as being emblematic, literally, of the Jewish state which is currently engaged in an ethnic cleansing of occupied land. It's not secular. A Christmas tree is secular.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link