This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Exercise doesn't seem to reduce weight by much, though of course it will make you healthier overall.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/upshot/to-lose-weight-eating-less-is-far-more-important-than-exercising-more.html
"Which is more important in an internal combustion engine? Oxygen or the flammable substance?"
It's diet and exercise. You have to have both. Together.
These pills won't make people healthier. They will make people feel better about themselves. They aren't weight loss drugs, they're NextGen antidepressants. Metabolic syndrome often does not present as visible obesity. Major stomach and liver issues can go undetected for years. People will start taking these drugs and remain at a lower body weight. Then, one day, they die suddenly and any autopsy performed with reveal superfluous amounts of visceral fat, a leaking stomach, and a liver close to non-function.
Physical fitness is, among many other things, an information feedback loop. If you are in bad shape, you have been making poor health decisions. Sometimes, this can be unavoidable (late nights during crunch time at work or school, what have you). But, mostly, it's a clear indication that you're making poor, poor choices. Using something that covers up the effects of these choices does nothing to alter that decision process. I'd wager that habitual users of Wegovy etc. probably will also habitually (ab)use other substances - alcohol, narcotics, sugar, social media. This is not a road to health.
Nobody is claiming that the pills make people healthier directly.
You are of course, correct. That's the genius of semaglutide - it's a pill that doesn't improve your health, it's a pill that improves your decisions, that leads to measurable changes in behavior that lead in turn to better health.
More options
Context Copy link
On what you base this prediction?
Not OP, but I won't be surprised if these new weight loss drugs are trumpeted for a couple of years, then we find complications of some sort with them (skinny-but-unhealthy sounds plausible) and have to memory hole them like the last half dozen wonder solutions we've been sold: Fen-phen and Ephedra both seemed promising in their times but had high incidences of adverse effects showing up later.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
You really don't, at least for weight loss. You can lose weight from diet alone by simply eating X fewer calories. You can't really lose weight from exercise alone unless you're exercising at pro athlete/olympian levels, exercise just doesn't really burn all that many calories.
It does burn calories, sometimes lots of calories. The problem is that your hunger levels increase to compensate for the calories you burn.
More options
Context Copy link
I know people constantly insist on this, but running 50 miles per week is actually a lot of calories and isn't even half of what pros are doing. When I ramp up from my typical 40 mile/week schedule to 70+ miles per week during marathon training cycles, I will either lose weight or make a deliberate choice to eat more simple carbs and keep weight. This is even easier in cycling, where long rides are easier to pull off consistently than long runs. Unsurprisingly, the extra ~600-1000 calories per day from exercise makes it much easier to maintain homeostatic calorie intake than what sedentary people would eat; I know this because maintaining my weight required much more conscious choices before I picked up endurance sports.
More options
Context Copy link
Exercise presumably helps make diets sustainable. If you want to cut a deficit of say 500 calories per day then cutting out a snack and exercise is one way to tackle it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Ozempic reduces alcohol cravings as well, so at least that will also be less of an issue:
https://neurosciencenews.com/ozempic-alcohol-addiction-23422/
Don't take any of those class of drugs. They really fuck with your head.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don't doubt the science on how many calories cardio burns directly, but there must be something more to it. Why do people who do a lot of exercise just never seem to be obese? Where are all the avid gym goers with double chins? Does exercise also help regulate appetite or something?
The exceptions I can think of are ones where piling on muscle is worth it even if it comes with a lot of fat.
You haven’t met my dad. Obese, pre-diabetic, dad-gut, exercises at the YMCA daily, eats 3 meals a day.
Meanwhile, I don’t exercise and I’m his mirror image.
Yeah, a lot of older guys at the gym lift, run, swim, are ostensibly doing a lot of exercise but are also very fat.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Have you never been to Planet Fitness? /s
But seriously, I agree with the explanations by @curious_straight_ca and @hydroacetylene: people that are fat usually don't enjoy exercise.
More options
Context Copy link
Plenty are!
Several years ago I lost quite a bit of weight by tracking my calories. I made no changes to my exercise routine which had been stable for the previous six months or so and just made sure to keep average consumed calories around 2200 kcal (maintenance level for a person my age and height). I ended up having an average 1000 kcal daily deficit for months while losing around 25 kg overall, meaning I'd been exercising ~1000 kcal worth daily for many months prior to that while having obese BMI and without any weight loss.
Exercise alone really doesn't work for weight loss for most people because they just end up increasing the number of calories eaten without even realising it.
More options
Context Copy link
Most likely the causation arrow goes the other way. Obese people don't exercise because it's difficult for them to do so.
It does absolutely. It upregulates it. Meaning that those who exercise experience more hunger. If you burn 500 calories on your exercise bike, and respond to your body's natural hunger cues, you'll tend to eat 500 more calories of food. And if you lift weights, you'll tend to increase in weight.
Every bodybuilder will tell you that fitness is made in the gym but physiques are made in the kitchen. It's very difficult to exercise yourself lean, except for at the extremes.
Exercise has many benefits, but for diet matters more than exercise for maintaining a good physique.
More options
Context Copy link
I can attest from personal experience that when i take a couple weeks off from the gym junk food is more appealing and when I'm really pushing myself vegetables and lean protein are delicious
Yeah, I actually lost most of my weight from diet but it feels like my regimen was most consistent and sustainable when I was also exercising. Part of it was that early on it seemed to help me fast but I've adapted past that now.
But still, if I fall off the wagon on exercise I seem to fall off with other stuff like diet. Not sure if it's the direct or only cause (there's some interaction with sleep quality but that's a cycle) but still.
It's easier to do it all sometimes.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It might work the opposite direction- exercise is horrifically uncomfortable for fat people, so they don’t do it.
Right, maybe that discomfort is also the feedback by which people are motivated to stay in shape. If I go for a cycle and feel terrible, the cycling itself won't have done much for me but it will be a wake up call for me to cut down on smoking/drinking/gaining weight (or if I'm feeling lazy, a wake up call to quite cycling).
The feedback cycle is not fitting in my damn pants. I don’t need to waste half an hour on the treadmill to tell me that. I spend that time because I want to be healthier.
More options
Context Copy link
The people who feel that way are not the target demographic. You're not the target demographic.
They're already not in shape. They don't have something they fear to lose, that's the point. Because of rising childhood obesity they may never have been in shape enough to distinguish between 'normal' and 'wakeup call'
Honestly, given that - adults who never even developed basic coping mechanisms - I'd pump this shit into the water supply if it was safe.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Not necessarily the only explanation but - The kind of person who is willing to do something somewhat uncomfortable for health benefits is the kind of person who will both exercise and intentionally eat less.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link