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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   32787 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 12, 2023

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boomers like to drive

God I seriously wish that some of these anti-car people could just spend a month actually living in the "car free" cities that they think everybody wants so they could realize how terrible it is.

People point at some fairy tale version of a Finnish city where there's playgrounds everywhere and people are walking around drinking espressos and beers and wearing scarves and children are laughing and playing with one another in city squares.

It's not the lack of cars that is causing this unless cars is some sort of euphamism and I'm just not pol-pilled enough to understand what you guys mean when you envision a car free city. My city is a "walkable" city. From where I am sitting typing this there are a dozen coffee shops within a 5 minute walk, countless bars and restaurants, shopping, there's a train that goes literally right in front of my house, and a stop for that train a block away. There are 5 parks I can think of offhand that are within the same 5 minute walk from my house.

Guess what? I still drive EVERYWHERE I go.

  • I can bike, but if I bike I have to carry a 20lb chain with me to lock it, and even then I worry about the wheels being stolen, the seat being stolen, the lights being stolen, or some other set of things being stolen. ALL of this has happened to me or people I am close friends with. I have had bikes stolen that were locked up, parts stolen off of my bikes, etc.

  • I can walk, but I have to take a bizarre circuitous route that avoids: the park, the local drug store, all of the bus stops, all of the train stops, and any convenience stores which are currently being used as homeless shelters and drug injection sites. Even still I've had friends robbed or beaten up walking through my city.

  • I could take the idiotic train that our city is so proud of (and everybody who can actively avoids), and be accosted by the schizophrenic psychopaths who are using the train as a refuge from the weather.

The parks are de facto homeless encampments, meaning if I want to take my kids to play, guess where I go? 30 minutes out into the suburbs.

This idea that "boomers like cars and ruined everything by making car centric cities" is absurd and I can only assume is parroted by people who never leave their goon caves.

I can bike, but if I bike I have to carry a 20lb chain with me to lock it, and even then I worry about the wheels being stolen, the seat being stolen, the lights being stolen, or some other set of things being stolen. ALL of this has happened to me or people I am close friends with. I have had bikes stolen that were locked up, parts stolen off of my bikes, etc.

I can walk, but I have to take a bizarre circuitous route that avoids: the park, the local drug store, all of the bus stops, all of the train stops, and any convenience stores which are currently being used as homeless shelters and drug injection sites. Even still I've had friends robbed or beaten up walking through my city.

I could take the idiotic train that our city is so proud of (and everybody who can actively avoids), and be accosted by the schizophrenic psychopaths who are using the train as a refuge from the weather.

This is an civility problem, not a walking problem. In South Africa they have problems with thieves stealing copper, poor maintenance of aging power plants... there's lots of load shedding. This doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with electricity or power grids in general. It shows that South Africa is not a well-organized country, amongst other things.

I live car-free just fine in a proper, civilized country. There are many civilized cities where public transport is full of working people as opposed to drug addicts. The solution to your city's problems is vigorous policing, removing the problem people.

I'd argue it's more of a law enforcement problem.

All the law enforcement in the world doesn't fix low trust societies. You need the stock of the people to be of a "better" kind where you don't really fear you'll get mugged/stabbed/raped for going on a walk with your two children in the middle of the day.

I mean. Is Eugene, Oregon c. 2015 a "low trust society"? If you get the wheels stolen off your bike, as I did, odds are it's not Tyrone from the 'hood doing the stealing. It's probably some white dude who may or may not have a meth habit. Not that much violent crime out there, but a hell of a lot of bike theft.

That's still a lost trust society just a different gradient of "low trust". In a "normal" high trust society you don't even need to lock your bike because there aren't any methheads around to do petty crime.

But I think it' also true that high-trust societies are also prone to enact policies that result in lousy conditions such as this, such as deinstitutionalizing mentally ill people, lenient sentencing etc. Plus, I'm sure that White flight and urban decay affects high-trust societies as well.

What does "stock" of the people mean here?

edit： I don't mean to sound baiting, I am genuinely curious. Like, breeding? Genetic superiority? Socioeconomic status? More genteel class manners?

(load shedding refers to, "people in this area don't get to have power right now," planned by the power company so that they have enough power)

Why the hell aren't they calling it a rolling blackout like everyone else? Very confusing term

You wouldn’t want to be crushed by the darkness, so you lighten the weight on your shoulders. It’s a nice chiaroscuro reversal to think about by candlelight.

This is nonsense and you completely lack perspective. I've never owned a car in my life, which is completely normal here, coming from a small European city.

God I seriously wish that some of these anti-car people could just spend a month actually living in the "car free" cities that they think everybody wants so they could realize how terrible it is.

I've lived in a city like this for almost four decades now. I own a car only because my wife loves her dacha and that's a quarter of a year spent in the exurbs where a car is a necessity. It's still a B-segment car and not an SUV.

Agreed, I commute daily via transit and my car is the last possession I'd give up besides my home. I'm as far from carfree as is possible to be.

I literally haven't driven a car in 20 years, ie. after I did my driving license (which I've since lost). I don't live in a fairytale Finnish city, I live in a normal Finnish city.

The OP's city sounds like a fine place to live without a car apart from schizo addicted criminals taking over all the public spaces. So perhaps the issue doesn't have to do much with cars at all.

God I seriously wish that some of these anti-car people could just spend a month actually living in the "car free" cities that they think everybody wants so they could realize how terrible it is.

A lot of them have done so, probably most notably NotJustBikes, who moved to Amsterdam.

Most of these problems seem to be unrelated to the extent to which a city is walkable. Car-dependent American cities still have homelessness, crime, and drug use, while many walkable ones in Europe or Japan have much less. Walkability does not mean doing nothing about social problems; Amsterdam did a lot of work (see section 9) to clean itself up.

This idea that "boomers like cars and ruined everything by making car centric cities" is absurd and I can only assume is parroted by people who never leave their goon caves.

This is unnecessarily rude, but also seems to neglect history. Were cities already plagued by the same issues after WW2, when the exodus to car-dependent suburbs began, and is that why people started to leave? Have the policies imposed to make cities and suburbs more amenable to cars, such as knocking down urban neighborhoods to make way for highways, or preventing any housing from being built, contributed to these social problems?

(The actual thing to object to is that boomers aren't responsible for these policies for the most part--it's actually Silent and Greatest, until more recently.)

Most of these problems seem to be unrelated to the extent to which a city is walkable.

I strongly disagree! People won't want to walk or take mass transit if they feel much more likely to be victimized in doing so. This creates a spiral, where the most walking-friendly destinations and infrastructure end up neglected, making them even less attractive, and people who want to drive end up going elsewhere.

Were cities already plagued by the same issues after WW2, when the exodus to car-dependent suburbs began, and is that why people started to leave?

Yes. People began moving to suburbs almost as soon as they could get cars. Even before, with the "streetcar suburbs" proliferating in the 1920's. Then rising crime and unrest, and safety-hostile urban policies like blockbusting and forced school integration caused mass flight right when the new interstates made it convenient to do so. But notably this happened in the sixties when the boomers were still children or young adults. The highway builders and urban renewists were mostly members of the Greatest Generation. The Boomers just inherited their world, and actually put a lot of effort into fixing the bigger mistakes, leading to an urban renaissance in the 90's, at which point they seemed to have declared victory and turned their attention inward.

Agree and great comment. Just because I'm curious and skeptical, where does the idea of blockbusting come from? Did this actually happen a lot, was it rare, or was it (like poisoned Halloween candy) a complete fabrication?

For those who don't know, blockbusting was the supposed practice of real estate speculators putting black tenants (preferably violent ones) into a previously white neighborhood. When the white neighbors fled, the speculator would buy their houses for cheap and then rent them as a slumlord to new black tenants.

While Wikipedia says "blockbusting was very common and profitable", this feels like a just-so story. I wonder to what extent it really happened. It feels like an effort to blame evil white landlords for a process that would happen naturally anyway.

This creates a spiral, where the most walking-friendly destinations and infrastructure end up neglected, making them even less attractive, and people who want to drive end up going elsewhere.

Something like this is possible, or even likely. Another point, often made by urbanists, is that having more regular people in spaces makes them safer, and feel safer, because of safety in numbers. However, mainly what I was trying to get at is that the policies that allow lawlessness to continue and spread are orthogonal to policies that favor driving/other modes of transportation, and so it is entirely possible (easy, even, aside from the political constraints that seem to be unique to America) to make walkable places that are nothing like what firmamenti describes.

Yes. People began moving to suburbs almost as soon as they could get cars. Even before, with the "streetcar suburbs" proliferating in the 1920's. Then rising crime and unrest, and safety-hostile urban policies like blockbusting and forced school integration caused mass flight right when the new interstates made it convenient to do so.

Streetcar suburbs are the opposite of a car-dependent development and are not a problem.

I think you should re-check your history. Homicide rates declined from the mid 30s until the mid 60s, which is exactly when American governments started demolishing urban neighborhoods to build highways, subsidizing homeownership, etc.

If you're just going to drop a thinly veiled claim that being near black people is a public safety hazard, you should have some evidence for it. "Controversial claims require evidence" etc.

Streetcar suburbs are the opposite of a car-dependent development and are not a problem.

I'll nitpick a bit because why not. Even if streetcar suburbs still existed and functioned, their popularity would still mean White flight, or middle-class flight, from the urban core, resulting in the long-term decay of the latter.

This is obviously hypothetical, but I disagree. Taking a streetcar (or tram, bus, light rail, whatever) into the city, and walking to your final destination, is very different from living in a far-flung exurb that, at best, involves commuting for work (and by the 80s, often didn't even involve that much). And building such places is far less destructive to the city itself. One could argue this just subjects the middle class to the awful conditions of the cities in the 70s without any alternative; on the other hand, maybe if they stay, they vote for better crime policies, provide stabilizing social forces, don't displace lots of inner-city residents, and improve the tax base in the city. (My inner libertarian is outraged at that last one, but usually whenever the urban/suburban arguments start to happen on TheMotte, someone tells me that it's ok that car-dependent suburbs are subsidized because one function of government is to provide public goods for the benefit of all, so I figure what's good for the goose is good for the gander).

As far as I can tell, this "long-term decay" lasted a few decades and has generally been on the reverse since the 90s (in general; obviously some cities continued to decline, but e.g. NYC has had increasing population over the past few decades.)

Streetcar suburbs are the opposite of a car-dependent development and are not a problem.

They may be car-dependent now if there street cars are gone. In the one near me it does keep the homeless and adjacent criminal elements from the nearby city from riding public transit out to the suburbs.

If the street cars are gone (and not replaced with some other transit) it's not really a streetcar suburb anymore.

Perhaps. And many such suburbs were annexed by the city anyways. Point is that the strong impulse to live near the city but not in it predates cars. It was not cars that created the impulse to move to suburbs, or was the desire to move to suburbs that caused people to demand cars.

Suburbs are very old, but the cities they surrounded were never rebuilt to allow the suburbanites easier access to the detriment of the city's inhabitants. Certainly the streetcar suburbs we just discussed did not do that and did not require that. Cars' mere existence are not the problem; it's enforced car dependence: Knocking down urban neighborhoods to build highways to the suburbs (which already couldn't handle all the traffic even back in the 50s), building suburbs that can literally only be accessed or traversed in a car, preventing the building of any housing other than sprawling and expensive single family homes, etc.

some of these anti-car people could just spend a month actually living in the "car free"

I do, it is amazing. I haven't driven a car once in 2023. I used to have to drive a car everyday on the west coast. I can confidently proclaim that at least all NYC boroughs, Boston (until 2022 MBTA collapse), Mumbai, Madrid, Singapore & Paris can be lived in completely car free.

Note: I have nothing against cars. I literally have an automobile-engineering degree and spent a past life building cars at a big-car co. I love cars, I love road trips and I don't drink just so I can be the happy designated driver. It's just ....... Cars just make no sense as the primary mode of transport in an urban environment. Yeah you can have a car. A fast, spacious and small car. VW Gold R, Model 3 & the Mazda 3 Turbo are better SUVs than SUVs. You just don't need to drive it 99% of the time. Guess what ? The roads are still packed with cars. But now those who NEED to drive can drive, and the rest of us get convenient options.

This can be achieved in smaller towns too. There is high car ownership in college towns (Amherst, Ithaca) and small town New England (Portland Maine), but people still walk around or take transit for most occasions. The car comes out when it's needed.

I can bike, but if I bike I have to carry a 20lb chain with me to lock it

Many major cities now have bike sharing systems around the city which completely eliminates the need to carry your own bike around.

I can walk, but homeless shelters and drug injection sites.

Sounds like Portland, Seattle, SF..... west coast cities are not walkable. They are not even cities. They are dystopian examples of human deterioration. West coast cities are exactly what happens when car culture is unwilling to cede any ground. Not a single wealthy boomer lives in the city core, because highways drop you in the middle of the city core anyway. All 3 of these cities are designed with meeting the needs of car based visitors more than the needs of the residents. And it shows.

The parks are de facto homeless encampments, meaning if I want to take my kids to play, guess where I go? 30 minutes out into the suburbs.

I fully agree with you here. Progressives are idiots. Stringent enforcement of public-safety is first step towards convincing people to move out of cars.

This idea that "boomers like cars and ruined everything by making car centric cities" is absurd and I can only assume is parroted by people who never leave their goon caves.

It is true. They did ruin everything. It's just that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy now. Boomers created the wound and cars were the bandage. So if you ever suggest removal of bandage it gets met with obvious anger. But if you ask for funding to treat the wound itself, it gets treated with confusion and dismissal.

I have basically zero knowledge on this subject, but weren't Portland and Seattle founded and established way before car use became widespread?

Yep, the i5 and i90 literally tore through the middle of downtown Seattle. Seattle used to have a superior public transit network in 1914 than it does in 2022.

cars are great for things that are time-sensitive or far away. Public transportation is so slow and a hassle. walking is really slow. i think having a car is nice because it gives options even if you do not use it.

Public transportation is so slow and a hassle.

Public transit is only slow if it is has to sit in traffic. In NYC, Boston & Western Europe, it is a lot faster to get around in public transit than in cars. The problem with cars, is that you have to build larger roads and parking spaces everywhere. That makes transit impossible. That leads to everyone using cars, which in turn requires larger roads and parking spaces. So now everyone wants to go somewhere by far fast, but that that has made traffic worse and the place you want to go to farther off. When you build for transit, everything is so close by that even walking is faster than a car.

far away

Yes ofc. Agreed. For anything out of town, trains can serve a similar purpose. But I am not opposed to cars as an essential means of transport outside the city core.

All of this is especially perplexing giving the rampant drinking culture in the US. If the only fun event in most towns is drinking, then how can I drive to the spot ? I guess the obesity epidemic keeps the BAC levels low /s .

Public transit is only slow if it is has to sit in traffic. In NYC, Boston & Western Europe, it is a lot faster to get around in public transit than in cars.

Only because NYC has managed to slow cars enough. Transit in NYC is slow in general, it's just not as slow as driving to most places.

When you build for transit, everything is so close by that even walking is faster than a car.

LOL. Have you ever been to New York City?

LOL. Have you ever been to New York City?

I live in NYC.

NYC has managed to slow cars enough

What could NYC do to speed up cars more ? What has it done to slow cars down ?

NYC manages to excel by American standards, but that's a passing grade for global cities in the rest of the world. As compared to other cities of the world, NYC actually allows cars to take a highway straight into the downtown core of the city. Other cities cut off the highway at the edge of the ring road that surrounds the city core. Both Manhattan highways occupy the most expensive waterfront space in the world. If the 2 highways were fully moved underground, you'd be looking at one of the most expensive sale of airspace in the entire history of humanity.

Parking is free or dirt cheap in most of the city, while occupying area that generates far more revenue if given as restaurant seating space. Note there are 3 types of people who take cars into NYC. The first are people who are so rich, that they could have simply taken a daily cab instead. The second are slightly-rich people who commute into the city with a car, who should have to pay actual market rate for parking or have their employer pay it. The final are disabled people who ofc deserve to be accommodated, and should have separate reserved parking on each block.

What has it done to slow cars down ?

Pack too many people in too little space.

Parking is free or dirt cheap in most of the city

Which excludes most of Manhattan.

But your claim was

When you build for transit, everything is so close by that even walking is faster than a car.

Have you walked from Chelsea to Soho? I have, it takes a damn long time, and it's not a huge portion of the length of the island. If we're not talking just about Manhattan, crossing the East River on foot takes a long time itself -- the Brooklyn bridge is a mile long and the pedestrian path is often crowded. The Williamsburg bridge is even longer and has more of a climb. Cities aren't built to walking scale.

Have you walked from Chelsea to Soho?

Yeah, it's 30 minutes. In those 30 minutes you see more inspired architecture and more Michelin starred restaurants than entire regions of the US. A good few grocery stores, a target, every fashion store that exists and some of the world's premier underground performance locations (Smalls Jazz, Comedy central). You'll cross effectively 100k people worth of housing, and all in a 30 minute walk, 10 minute bike share, or a 10 minute subway ride.

30 minutes in the traffic in LA, and you're still in traffic while having burned 200 fewer calories.

Pack too many people in too little space.

...this is what makes a city, a city. Are you just opposed to the existence of cities?

Cities aren't built to walking scale.

I think it's clear from the other poster's previous comments that they mean a combination of walking and transit; not that you can walk literally everywhere. No one who lives in NYC would walk all over the entire city. I think you can understand this and are trying to make gotchas rather than engage in good faith.

I think it's clear from the other poster's previous comments that they mean a combination of walking and transit;

"When you build for transit, everything is so close by that even walking is faster than a car."

That does not mean "a combination of walking and transit is faster than a car". It means that building for transit makes walking itself faster than a car.

More comments

This is probably nothing new, but I'd argue that cars are great (i.e. efficiently used) for one thing, that is, for a nuclear family to move between two locations, as long as both our outside urban cores.

Poorly designed transit is slow. Walking is slow when things are far apart. You can absolutely design cities so that other options are faster than driving... especially since if everyone is driving, you inevitability face heavy congestion, especially within cities. When I was in Switzerland the trains ran beautifully (even during construction) and were probably much easier than driving would have been.

Cars are useful for some things but it would be nice if I didn't have to own one just to get around town, and could get by using one rarely enough that I could make do with the various car rental apps.

I agree. However, it is a large capital investment, so once you make the plunge to buy one, it makes sense to use it whenever it would be marginally advantageous to do so.

West coast cities are exactly what happens when car culture is unwilling to cede any ground. Not a single wealthy boomer lives in the city core, because highways drop you in the middle of the city core anyway. All 3 of these cities are designed with meeting the needs of car based visitors more than the needs of the residents. And it shows.

Can you expand this? I've never heard somebody blame the drug/homelessness/theft/inner city problems on cars before. Is the idea that you should force people to live among the filth, because then they would be more motivated to fix it?

Can you expand this? I've never heard somebody blame the drug/homelessness/theft/inner city problems on cars before. Is the idea that you should force people to live among the filth, because then they would be more motivated to fix it?

That's my bad. I conflated multiple things together and wrote a confusing mess.

All 3 of these cities are designed with meeting the needs of car based visitors more than the needs of the residents. And it shows.

I meant that serving the interests of commuters rather than tax-payers of the city has led to cities being carved up in ways that is hostile to the city's residents. This is a pure urban planning complaint, and not an inner city related problem.

drug/homelessness/theft/inner city problems on cars

Agreed. I am blaming it squarely on incompetent city govts. SF, Seattle and Portland's local govts have done everything in their power to make public spaces feel unsafe and public transit feel unusable. To be fair, if you've ever parked in the downtowns of any of these cities, cars don't feel much safer either.

you should force people to live among the filth, because then they would be more motivated to fix it?

It is a good question. Because dumping an interstate through the city must've cost around $25B in adjusted costs (using BigDig as reference). Surely that is enough money to solve a homelessness issue for any competently run city govt. Sadly, SF is the diametric opposite of competent. So we have a human constructed hellscape that progressives are convinced is what heaven looks like. I like that about New England liberals. Lot less incompetent.

What city do you live in?

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