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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   2819 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for April 14, 2023

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Some time last year - I believe it was before the exodus from Reddit - there was a post in the Friday Fun Thread asking the question: “What is the greatest rock song of all time?” I can’t find the post now, but the OP was asking whether AC/DC’s “You Shook Me All Night Long” is the correct answer to the question, and various users submitted different interesting arguments and alternative answers. Most people seemed to agree on certain baseline criteria: Would early rock & roll musicians such as Chuck Berry recognize the song as being within the same genre as the one they were writing in? Does the song contain the specific elements of rock music - not only the familiar instrumentation, but also the lyrical themes (sex/romance, rebellion, partying, strong emotions, etc.) - that have given the genre such a mass appeal? Is it well-known, influential, timeless, and broadly popular with a wide audience? (i.e. It’s not too heavy, too abrasive, or too proggy to make it off-putting or inaccessible for a general audience.) The OP’s choice of song seems like a very promising one, but many other good answers were given, as were many arguments why “You Shook Me All Night Long” either fails one or more criteria, or is otherwise not the best answer to the question.

For my part, I missed the boat on the thread and only saw it after it was too late to meaningfully contribute, but I was surprised to see that (unless I overlooked it) nobody brought up the song that I would have suggested: “Sweet Child O’ Mine” by Guns ‘N’ Roses.

Now, let’s see how this song performs on various metrics:

Is it well-known, influential, timeless, and broadly popular with a wide audience?

Obviously, yes. We’re talking about a multi-platinum-selling single, consistently ranking on various publications’ lists of greatest songs of all time. This song is ubiquitous in many different radio formats and is catchy enough to be played at weddings and in grocery stores, while still maintaining credibility among the snobbier rock critics. I am supremely confident that in fifty years, people will still be bumping “Sweet Child O’ Mine”, and that it will not be considered overly dated or cheesy at that point.

Does it have the elements of rock & roll that people find appealing, in terms of lyrical content, melodic/structural content, and instrumentation?

Again, yes. It’s a romantic song about loving a beautiful woman, but doesn’t feel cloying or juvenile. It’s mid-tempo, pulsing enough to dance to or even bang your head at times, but not too fast or heavy to turn casual listeners away. It is beautifully melodic at times, but has some heavy glam-metal kick, especially in the final minute or so of the song, once they kick things up a notch after the “where do we go now” section. Pop-hating 80’s metalheads and genial melody-loving grannies and kids can all enjoy this song.

Is it recognizably “rock and roll” and would Chuck Berry agree with that categorization?

This is the metric where, arguably, “Sweet Child O’ Mine” is pushing the limits. First off, the song is long - almost six minutes! Most prototypical rock songs are much tighter and more compact; “You Shook Me All Night Long” is a brisk three-and-a-half-minutes long, pretty much the golden mean for a rock song. “Sweet Child” is also more complex than the classic rock formula; it arguably doesn’t have a traditional “riff”, and its structure is more varied than the classic “verse-chorus-bridge-chorus” structure of early rock songs. It straddles the boundary between “rock” and its offspring genre “heavy metal”; it’s soft enough and melodic to be played on mainstream rock or even pop radio stations, but its guitars are at times heavy enough, and Axl Rose’s vocals piercing enough, to almost push it over the line into a genre that Chuck Berry would think has “gone too far”. So, going strictly by this criteria, “Sweet Child” has failed the test and has to be disqualified.

However, I would argue that “Sweet Child O’ Mine” strikes the perfect balance between pushing the limits of the genre while still remaining rock and roll at heart. This song is challenging to perform - the famous guitar intro was originally a string-skipping exercise that guitarist Saul “Slash” Hudson used to play as a warm-up/étude to keep his chops up, the vocals are outside of the range of most male singers, with Axl Rose wailing out, if I’m identifying the note correctly, an E5 at a couple of points, and don’t sleep on Duff McKagan’s limber, syncopated bass line - but does not feel show-offy or intentionally overcomplicated in the way that a lot of instrumentally-difficult rock music often does. This isn’t something that your average group of teenage neophytes and musical amateurs could get together and play in their garage, but it’s something they could aspire to learn without having to go through music school and years of meticulous training to master.

It’s miles ahead of “Sweet Little Sixteen” in terms of creativity and musicianship, but it’s not trying to be Dream Theater and isn’t primarily about showing everyone how great they are at playing their instruments. The average non-musician listening to the song might be vaguely aware of the impressive musicianship - Slash’s solo definitely shreds, in a way that’s obvious enough to impress non-guitarists - but it’s not the main takeaway or the main point. It’s just a kick-ass, catchy, anthemic rock song, and I’m personally willing to say that on all of the relevant criteria, it might well represent the pinnacle of the genre.

Anyway, that’s my contribution to a months-old, dead conversation topic, the OP of which will probably never see this and can’t respond. I thought it was a fun enough question to maybe resurrect here for another go-around, though.

The original thread

Which suggested Springsteen's Rosalita as the greatest Rock and Roll performance of all time.

My original criteria if we want to recreate the thread:

I think the greatest rock and roll song of all time would have to: be recognizably Rock and Roll to the majority of Rock audiences throughout time, I want something that Wolfman Jack would love while still having pushed and developed the genre further, so however much I love Ulver’s Nattens Madrigal it's out. From a great rock and roll band as an aspect of "career achievement" so one hit wonders are out. Can't be too obscure, the all time GOAT should be recognized by mass audiences, so anything by the Queers is out. A great upbeat car-radio song, so ballads and such are out. Covering classic rock and roll themes of teenage love and freedom and joy, so something too political like Eve of Destruction or too weird like Iron Man is out.

Looking back on it though, I give the win to @netstack who suggested Hendrix's performance of All Along the Watchtower. Hendrix is the essence of burning out at Forever-27, Dylan getting a Nobel at age-one-million is the essence of fading away; Hendrix is rock's greatest guitarist, Dylan is its greatest writer. That pick is perfect, it encapsulates the genre much better than Rosalita.

@pusher_robot deserves credit for suggesting Sweet Child of Mine at the time, you two should be friends.

Thank you, thank you.

This stands as my most significant contribution to the Motte.

Aw man, I feel terrible for shortchanging you! And also for misremembering which song you were actually arguing in favor of! (Probably because your choice is wrong and bad, and the choice I thought you had made would have been good and almost correct, though still not as correct as my pick.) And @pusher_robot, I will cede to you 50% of any royalties I earn from this post.

Sweet Child o mine is definitely a top contender but I think Free Bird is still the GOAT 🦅

I don’t think the length matters here, we’re talking about the greatest rock song, not the most average, and 6 minutes has a Greatness that 3 minutes lacks.

we’re talking about the greatest rock song, not the most average

What's the most average, in your opinion?

Agree with you on Free Bird. I also think Bohemian Rhapsody deserves a nod.

Am I the only person who loathes Free Bird? It's just so God damned slow, and every time I hear the guitar warble all I can see in my mind is a desert highway from the back of a station wagon, just endless tedium and apathy.

Keep in mind that neither I nor my parents have ever owned a station wagon, so I don't think it's just that my parents previously owned @FiveHourMarathon's old car with the busted tape deck and we took it on a road trip through the desert, and the memory is tainting my listening pleasure. But the image in my head is definitely a station wagon, and it's definitely going through the desert, I want to say in Wyoming or maybe the Northern Territory. I would interrogate this phenomenon further except then I'd have to listen to Free Bird and I'd rather jam knitting needles into my ears (I lasted 15 seconds listening to it for this post.)

It could be a station wagon, but it could also be a convertible:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=lho97LPe4os

See, Rob Zombie gets it! Wait, that actually hurts my credibility doesn't it?

Good God I can't stand Bohemian rhapsody.

“Bohemian Rhapsody” is too far outside of the expected parameters of “rock and roll”. Way too many non-rock elements. Fails the Chuck Berry test, in the same way that “Stairway To Heaven” does. It’s a great song, and technically it’s a rock song, but it’s not a great rock song.

What? It’s obviously Stairway to Heaven. How is this even a question?

Way too slow and soft for 80% of the song - it’s more of a folk song than a rock song, in totality. The drums don’t even show up until four minutes and eighteen seconds in! It’s an incredible song, but it’s not an incredible rock and roll song.

Gotta disagree there. Any criteria for rock and roll songs which exclude Stairway are fundamentally broken and need revising. Stairway is one of the all time great rock and roll songs, without any question.

Something has gone horribly wrong in your analysis. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but it may have something to do with grading art using a rubric.

You could show Stairway to Heaven to Beethoven, Mozart, or even Bach, and it would immediately communicate the power of rock.

I mean, the point of the rubric is to provide ground rules and an Overton Window for the discussion. Without making it clear what’s included in the category under discussion, what’s stopping someone from arguing that Beethoven’s 9th Symphony is a rock song? (It’s in 4/4 time, it includes vocals, it’s soaring and anthemic, etc.) Certainly “Stairway To Heaven” is much closer to the genre than Beethoven is, and I agree that it’s coherent to speak of it as a rock song in the sense that the final 20% of the song is recognizably hard rock. Still, I think that if there are ground rules for defining the genre, “Stairway” is missing some important elements that are shared by more central examples of the genre. I definitely don’t think Chuck Berry would call it a rock and roll song.

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