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PaperclipPerfector  25d ago (text post)   2848 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for October 27, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

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What’s the actual deal with ‘seed oils’?

Obviously a topic right now. Does RFK have a point about polyunsaturated fats?

Maybe, who knows. Saturated, unsaturated, polyunsaturated are only words. We'd have to listen to nutritionists to understand what they really mean. And nutritionists have not covered themselves in glory over the last sixty years. The experts have overseen the biggest public health disaster since smoking, they don't have a clue.

Just stick to the foods our ancestors ate, back when the very fat were circus attractions. Eat Fruit. Vegetables. Meat. Fish. Milk. Grains. Olive oil has been tried and tested for thousands of years, there's no reason to use canola oil (first used for cooking the 1970s).

Not breakfast cereals, not fast-food, not these syrupy Starbucks coffees, Coca-Cola, candy bars or jelly beans. At least not very often.

Similar to various so-called health influencer claims, I suspect the panic over seed oils is bullshit.

The claim is that omega-6 fatty acids in seed oils cause inflammation. There's a 2017 study that suggests there's no relation between systemic inflammation and linoleic acid (the typical source of omega 6 in seed oils.)

Some pundits, like the endocrinologist Robert Lustig, claim things like olive oil, when heated up enough, become transfats. This is, alas, bullshit, at least for the home cook, as olive oils would have to be heated to >200 C (about 390 F) for extended periods to have any effect. The typical temperature for deep frying may reach around 180 C, but not when sauteéing. And you'd have to be reheating the oil numerous times.

I'm not the biggest fan of Consumer Reports but here is an article suggesting the claims against seed oils are overblown.

I'm also not really comfortable with claims against so-called "processed" or "ultra-processed" food, as there's no widely accepted definition outside certain bubbles. All food really is processed--once you wash it, peel it, cut it, you're processing it. All of these things have different effects, and sometimes take away vitamins (see: washing your rice--a common, even culturally prescribed method of rice preparation in Japan--this rinses away some of the few nutrients contained in white rice) but it is not going to kill anyone. This may sound like a weasel-wording way around the term "processed" but like the push for "organic" or against "GMO" (both bullshit alarmist claims) I think the terror of processed foods is largely a storm in a teacup.

The basic knowledge we have about not eating tons of saturated fat (some is fine, just don't make it your whole diet) and eating plenty of fiber I think really covers the bases as far as a healthy diet goes. Most foods called "processed" (think things like apple juice) are essentially stripped of fiber even when it's in the original fruit. So eating lots of food that is high fat and low fiber, and doing this exclusively and all the time, is bad for you.

Sauteéng using canola oil or something, contrary to being bad for you, can actually be heart healthy.

This post appears to contradict a lot of others replying to you, which is one of the reasons I've tried to add sources (though you may not buy them, of course.)

Atleast a few studies on soybean oil implies that is has alot of effects, none of them good.

I personally try to keep them out of my diet. Your mileage may vary.

This is the best source I've found- https://dynomight.net/seed-oil/

In practice, avoiding seed oils is probably really good for you, because it forces you to eliminate most of the processed crap you shouldn’t be eating anyway.

seed oil theorists push a much stronger theory: that seed oils are the cause of Western disease. I’ll just be honest. I think this view is completely indefensible.

My real worry about seed oil theory is that it’s a distraction. If you want to be healthier, we know ways you can change your diet that will help: Increase your overall diet “quality”. Eat lots of fruits and vegetables. Avoid processed food. Especially avoid processed meats. Eat food with low caloric density. Avoid added sugar. Avoid alcohol. Avoid processed food.

I know this is hard. You could even argue it’s unrealistic. That wouldn’t make it wrong.

I've reached a similar conclusion.

The sort of foods that cause high consumption of seed-oils, are the type of foods that you should avoid anyways; Seed oils or not. I personally love extra-virgin olive oil, because if can use a little and get a ton of flavor out of it. Kirkland brand EEVO is cheap enough.

So yeah. Olive oil for everything. Unless it is high-temp wok cooking, when Canola is permissible.

I try to limit my intake of olive oil simply due to how calorie dense it is, though I've been going back and forth over finding a good pre-made vinaigrette to go on my salad and just throwing my hands up and making my own from scratch.

You'd be surprised how many of said pre-made vinaigrettes use soybean oil, hence my annoyance.

When it comes to cooking, I typically prefer lard or butter.

Unless it is high-temp wok cooking, when Canola is permissible.

If you aren't sold either way on the theory that hexane-extracted oils are inherently unhealthy, but want to suspend judgement and act in an abundance of caution in this epistemic hellscape, there's always cold-pressed peanut or avocado oil, which have higher smokepoints anyway.

Yeah I feel like there’s enough evidence to warrant avoiding seed oils from a precautionary principle standpoint.

Since there are no real benefits to seed oils except for their low cost it’s an easy choice to avoid them whenever possible.

I don’t use them in home cooking because saturated fat tastes better. But where is the evidence that polyunsaturated fats are worse for you? Like there’s all sorts of claims about soy, and some of them are likely true, but it seems like disentangling polyunsaturated fats from phytoestrogens is beyond the ken of current knowledge. Where’s the evidence against canola oil(and no, it having once had an unfortunate name is not evidence) and cottonseed oil and the like?

I don't have the studies at my fingertips. I'm confident I could dig some up quickly because there is a large and active anti-PUFA community. But it's definitely not in my wheelhouse so I'd leave that to others who are more qualified.

Nevertheless, I see no benefit to eating foods which were created essentially de novo in the last 50 years and whose use has correlated highly with the rise in obesity. The processes for making safflower oil, for example, are completely foreign to anything granny would have done, and typically involve the use of industrial solvents (Hexane) and machinery.

Flip your question. Where are the studies proving that seed oils are healthy? Got a source for that?

When I have a choice, I'll try to avoid seed oils until they can be proved healthy. There is no downside if I'm wrong. People who eat lots of seed oils can't say the same.

It's possible there's some minor impact from eating particular foods, but I am generally an IIFYM guy when it comes to the big obesity/health stuff.

Seed oil consumption tracks obesity because it is used in so many processed foods. The majority of technical diets that major in the minors just track with "create a restriction that prevents you from eating at a convenience store or fast food restaurant;" this prevents most people from eating mindlessly and serves as an effective calorie stopper.

Seed oil consumption tracks obesity because it is used in so many processed foods.

What's bad about processed foods? Does the act of processing a food introduce sin into the food that causes obesity?

Talk of hyper-processed foods causing obesity seems very hand-wavy to me.

What, specifically, is causing the problem? Is it seed oils? Is it additives? Is it hyper-palatability (press D to doubt). Is it ease of use?

Of all those factors, I'd say seed oils feels like the most likely candidate, low confidence.

Yes, it's hyper-palatability. Processed stuff simply tastes better and can be eaten mindlessly. To eat an apple mindlessly you have to mindfully wash it, core it and slice it. You can't eat an orange mindlessly at all. You can eat apple- and orange-flavored candy mindlessly and it's much more calorie-dense.

Well, first of all, I think it works like all restrictions— it makes it hard to just eat anything without thinking about it, reading labels, etc. This is important because America is stuffed full of convenience foods and they’re available just about everywhere you go. If you can’t eat processed foods, or seed oils, then you’re not going to be able to buy chips at the gas station, go through the drive through, get a pizza at the grocery store, etc.

Second I think there is something to hyper-palatable foods being a reasonable hypothesis as most processed foods have more intense flavors than anything in nature. The cheesyist natural cheese is not as intense as something like Cheetos. The sweetest fruits pale in flavor intensity compared to fruit flavored candies.

Third, processed foods often remove the things that allow your systems to feel full for example engineering mouthfeel (https://agrilifetoday.tamu.edu/2023/11/07/mouthfeel-of-food-determines-whether-people-go-back-for-seconds/) to induce purchases. Now the article was about hamburgers, but mouthfeel is just one aspect of the engineering of food to induce people to eat it. Now, once your diet reaches a certain point with foods engineered both to induce eating, and to perhaps keep you from feeling full, becoming at least overweight is pretty much a done deal.

What's bad about processed foods? Does the act of processing a food introduce sin into the food that causes obesity?

Talk of hyper-processed foods causing obesity seems very hand-wavy to me.

I literally explained the proposed mechanism in the next sentence:

The majority of technical diets that major in the minors just track with "create a restriction that prevents you from eating at a convenience store or fast food restaurant;" this prevents most people from eating mindlessly and serves as an effective calorie stopper.

Most Americans/Westerners aren't getting fat off of home cooking, even though one can quite easily make high calorie foods at home. Most people are getting fat off of fast food, takeout, and grocery store junk food, not high calorie home cooking.

The sin being introduced is mindless availability of calories. I would bet that consumption of seed oils tracks obesity less closely than percentage of meals eaten outside the home.

Yes, it introduces "sins". To process food is to remove healthy, valuable parts and introduce cheap, unhealthy parts, even straight up waste that not even animals can live on.

Watch this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=5QOTBreQaIk

Can you summarize the video?

I pretty much already did.

Glad I didn't watch a 57 minute video that can be summarized in one sentence.

Lol this is rude but I love it because I really hate when people link long videos as if I’m gonna watch them.

He did ask what's bad about processed foods. The video answers the question. He can scan through it or ask an LLM if he doesn't want to watch it. Asking me for a summary is some lazy Gen Z behavior IMO...

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I'm definitely on board with this explanation. I'd also point to seed oils not tasting as good as the more expensive oils they replace leading to more artificial colours and flavours which jack with endocrine systems. But is it worse to cook your fried egg at home in vegetable oil than bacon grease?

But is it worse to cook your fried egg at home in vegetable oil than bacon grease?

I don't really know and I don't worry about it too much. I tend to go the bacon grease route, I rarely use vegetable oil at home. But I'm not going to ask what oil the recipe used when I eat at someone's home, and if I eat some junk occasionally I'm not going to sweat it.

Sensitivities vary, of course. Maybe there's an allergy response some people have.

What's wrong with the taste of seed oils? Aren't they supposed to be mostly neutral/tasteless cooking oils?

Yes, they’re largely neutral tasting. But saturated fats taste good(and have higher melting points changing the consistency of some food), so to replace them seed oil heavy food tends to have artificial crap added.

I think the science is undeveloped but seed oil consumption tracks obesity rates better than sugar consumption (which peaked in the US around 2010).

Is this distinguishable from CICO?

One of the theories is that seed oils are more calorically dense and cheaper than traditional alternatives, so they encourage more eating.

All fats have about nine calories per gram.

Soybean oil: https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/171411/nutrients

Olive oil: https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/171413/nutrients

Lard: https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/171401/nutrients

Hoo boy. Don't want to go down that road. Some topics are too spicy even for this forum.

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