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Culture War Roundup for the week of October 21, 2024

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While Trump is making a correct move by being among his voters and not hiding in an ivory tower McDonalds isn't exactly a great brand to be associated with. Why associate yourself with unhealthy, bland consumerist food? Mcdonalds should represent the opposite of what the right stands for. It is the antithesis of tradition, beauty, culture, small business and family.

Because that's America's burger. Unhealthy, bland, consumerist food that takes advantage of a weird strategy to make money on real estate and not the actual burger is America.

That's America's president. America, as it exists today, is the antithesis of tradition, beauty, culture, small business and family. It has spent the last fifty years gleefully tearing down tradition and family, and when it's not actively hostile to small business it's trying to buy them out or crush them. It defines culture as being what the majority don't like and beauty as what the majority enjoy because they are stupid.

McDonalds is one of America's most successful cultural exports next to the Internet and pre-2020s Hollywood. Your opinion on McDonalds aside, it is an American institution, built by Americans, and is wildly successful.

Why associate yourself with unhealthy, bland consumerist food?

The quarter pounder is one of the top 3 fast food burgers out there (especially in its double permutation) and is ubiquitously available. Wendy's has fallen off completely, Burger King has blown for more than a decade, and you need to cede a significant fraction of a minimum wage paycheck for Five Guys or Shake Shack, if you live near one.

The app performs reasonably well and you can actually get the food you order 90% of the time, unlike a bone-in-chicken place. It's really not that bad.

Maybe the right should be against it but I can't imagine going back a decade and telling people Trump's brand is incompatible with bland consumerism.

When I drive cross-country, McDonalds has the most reliably clean restrooms, and they don't insist on you buying stuff first. (The one exception to that I found was in a Denver suburb, where they had a sign on the bathroom saying "For customers only". I asked a worker to let me and the kids in, and she did without any questions, and without requiring a purchase. I guess that's to discourage the local homeless.)

The food is also fine. I don't subsist on it, but an occasional chicken sandwich isn't going to kill me any faster than anything else I can get quickly on the road.

(The one exception to that I found was in a Denver suburb, where they had a sign on the bathroom saying "For customers only".

This is pretty common IME in areas where crime and homeless are legitimate concerns.

The food is also fine. I don't subsist on it, but an occasional chicken sandwich isn't going to kill me any faster than anything else I can get quickly on the road.

Yeah, people exaggerate how unhealthy typical McDonald's food is. Their cokes are the exact same ones you can get anywhere else, their fries and burgers and nuggets contain more additives than elsewhere but have roughly similar macros, it's the 'treats'- frappes and mcflurries and deserts- that kill people there, and that's mostly just from McDonald's cornering the market. And even then, a bunch of this is really more like a starbucks drink, just to lower class clientele.

None of this is health food, but McDonald's is lower class and really common, so it makes an easy scapegoat.

Yeah, people exaggerate how unhealthy typical McDonald's food is. Their cokes are the exact same ones you can get anywhere else, their fries and burgers and nuggets contain more additives than elsewhere but have roughly similar macros, it's the 'treats'- frappes and mcflurries and deserts- that kill people there, and that's mostly just from McDonald's cornering the market. And even then, a bunch of this is really more like a starbucks drink, just to lower class clientele.

It's not unhealthy in relative terms, but it's still unhealthy. Fries, sauces, treats and non-diet coke are terrible. Nuggets are okay. Burgers are okay. But no one orders just a burger. If you have small fries with buffalo sauce, a small coke and a cone with your burger, the macros are not that bad. For a dinner. But if it's medium fries with ranch, a medium coke and a regular M&M's soft serve, it's many more calories than anyone who's not a miner or a lumberjack needs.

But if it's medium fries with ranch, a medium coke and a regular M&M's soft serve

Wait, I could have been getting fries with ranch or buffalo sauce all this time? Dang, maybe I do wish people would upsell me sometimes and not just offer me the pies (which I think have the highest calorie to dollar ratio of any fast food menu item ever).

But no one orders just a burger.

I was under the impression that everyone orders the standard meal. And if you do that, you're still coming in around 1K calories; you could go twice a day if you actually wanted to and be treading water, calorically speaking. Maybe if you get the mocha/lattes you'd be pushing 1400 but their coffee (that is not actually offered in the US locations, so maybe it doesn't apply as much) is good enough there's no reason to bother.

If I had to guess I'd say McDonalds optimizes its meals around 1000 calories specifically because these days it says so right beside the thing on the menu, where other places are usually pushing 1300-1400 for their default meal, which means your other meal now has to be smaller to compensate especially if you only eat twice a day and work a sedentary job.

Trump is associating himself with working at McDonald’s, not with it as a cornerstone of the American diet. One in eight Americans have worked at McDonald’s- statistically, Trump is showing that he’s not too good for an incredibly common American experience.

Now obviously it’s a campaign stunt. But it’s a clever campaign stunt that plays into his Everyman image.

But it’s a clever campaign stunt that plays into his Everyman image.

Has Trump ever had an "Everyman" image? As far as I can recall, Trump has always represented a billionaire business tycoon. Maybe he acts the same way an average person would act if they won the lottery (gold plated toilets, supermodel wives, etc.) but I don't think he was ever a true "Everyman" in the same way Homer Simpson is.

He's definitely done the 'Boss swaps jobs with a worker' schtick before with good results.

The video of this was freely available until recently, but I've been trying to search for it in Youtube and it seemed to have been memory holed until I found it through external search engines.

Edit: Clip was from Oprah's show in 2011.

Trump has always had a bit of a plebian sense of wealth. The expression a decade ago was that Trump lived like how poor people thought the rich lived, as opposed to how the rich actually lived. In that sense, he's the 'what the Everyman would see himself doing if he had Trump's wealth.'

Michèle Lamont, in The Dignity of Working Men, also found resentment of professionals — but not of the rich. “[I] can’t knock anyone for succeeding,” a laborer told her. “There’s a lot of people out there who are wealthy and I’m sure they worked darned hard for every cent they have,” chimed in a receiving clerk. Why the difference? For one thing, most blue-collar workers have little direct contact with the rich outside of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. But professionals order them around every day. The dream is not to become upper-middle-class, with its different food, family, and friendship patterns; the dream is to live in your own class milieu, where you feel comfortable — just with more money. “The main thing is to be independent and give your own orders and not have to take them from anybody else,” a machine operator told Lamont. Owning one’s own business — that’s the goal. That’s another part of Trump’s appeal.

Hillary Clinton, by contrast, epitomizes the dorky arrogance and smugness of the professional elite. The dorkiness: the pantsuits. The arrogance: the email server. The smugness: the basket of deplorables. Worse, her mere presence rubs it in that even women from her class can treat working-class men with disrespect. Look at how she condescends to Trump as unfit to hold the office of the presidency and dismisses his supporters as racist, sexist, homophobic, or xenophobic.

The following is a transcript of a conversation I had with a friend which I think is relevant. I have recreated it as closely as possible.

clo: Work is shit. Humans can become accustomed to completely terrible conditions. Thrive in them, even. So why do people hate work? Why are there so many grifters, liars, cheats, when honest work seems, genuinely, easier? Because work is shit. People would rather debase themselves on Onlyfans or spend 18 hours editing some shitty yt video than work.

hv: arguably, it is working for a living. there's a streamer a mate watches, mainly does Resident Evil successful. chatter asks what it's like and how to get started themselves. his answer: "it's a job". he wakes up, has breakfast, maybe exercises, then plays Resident Evil for 12 hours, takes holidays, gets breaks, he's not in a cubicle, but yeah. that's work. I'd put money on guessing that most grifts are pretty fuckin' hard work too. people like to gloss over exactly how much effort and work things take because, yeah, it's ugly.

clo: Yeah but have you thought about why they did that. Over working. That's the question

hv: they are working, though

clo: not my question

hv: or are you drawing a line between working for themselves or someone else?

clo: Why did the guy choose to play RE for money, over say, getting a job? I refuse to believe there aren't jobs that pay more, especially now? Why would someone work for Rooster Teeth over like, I don't know, taking a minimum hours job in db admin.

hv: well in all these comparisons it sems to boil down to "working for yourself" or "working for someone else, who pays you"

clo: I've worked all through coof. I've had (counting) six jobs, and the whole thing reminds me, depressingly, of the replacement debate. People aren't honest because the honest answer is bad. They can say it's money or qualifications, and those are definitely factors. But I think it comes down to this: people hate work because modern workplaces are fucking dogshit for self respect. It's not the pay, it's not even the working conditions, it's the fact that you have to swallow your balls and watch as shit rolls over you from on top. that's literally it

hv: we agree on this, shit rolls downhill. why would anyone want to start climbing?

clo: I think this is all. And I wish it could be solved. Certain people do climb in this system and that's also why, you built a system that self selects for cowards and psychopaths. People say it's money, I don't think so. I've witnessed people turn down money to stay low. I've personally worked at two companies that were known for underpaying employees but treated their employees like human beings. They never had trouble retaining. In fact, people left and then came back. This is why someone would rather try and make pennies streaming Fortnite, than even take a mcjob for a couple months, because you'd have to swallow your pride for a half fucking second and just bend over and take it. You will be reminded of it every second of every day. And if you forget, the job won't let you forget. It's like being a prison bitch. Everyone knows. You know.

hv: yeeeeeah I think this is what got galvanized working at the last two places

clo: So that's why people are checking out. The depressing fucking thing is, working from home changed that. It gave people back a modicum of self respect

hv: AND THEY IMMEDIATELY TRIED TO TAKE IT AWAY LMFAO, YES

clo: it resulted in a flood of people quitting. In some case they don't come back even for 50% more salary, I've seen the numbers. So yeah, kids want to grow up to be a streamer. Being a streamer is pretty much objectively shit unless you are the 0.01%

hv: "content creator"

clo: You have zero job security and are dependent on algorithms and how much Twitch feels like losing. But people would rather do that than be a prison bitch, because you would know you were a prison bitch. People don't respond well to being told what to do. And to have your material existence and quality of life being used as blackmail against you to make you do as you're told - which, let's face it, is exactly what work feels like even though it's not what it actually is in a lot of cases, well... In the rumored words of Churchill, badly paraphrased, you already know you're a whore. The rest of it is haggling about the price. Wallstreetbets openly advertises how horrible it is to your financial well being, but people continue to yeet their life savings into it at warp speed. Why is that? It's because if they win, they're nobody's bitch

hv: Fuck You Money

clo: Now are you capable of finding your own path to money? Or are you a bitch?

hv: this plays into why people are finding it harder to get into relationships, doesn't it

clo: A relationship is work. We know it's not work for some people. We know because we see it and they tell us how great it is (or are lying). So why are we working for it? Fuck this!

The arrogance: the email server.

For a second I forgot about the specific Hillary context and reacted to this with, "What's wrong with Exchange admins!?"

There is a lot to this. Upvoted and AAQC'd, but I wanted to put one of the resident motteizean blue collar workers on record as saying- I see this attitude every day. You want to know why working class voters of all races, especially white ones, are turning against the DNC? Because their politicians come off as our hired bosses- managers, not owner-men, and especially as the HR people and managers of whatever the fuck who get left to deliver bad news when the actual bosses don't want to-, and the GOP pols come off as people who worked to build their own businesses.

Of course this is a false impression, and of course I have my own disagreements with democrat policies. But politics is vibes based.

Why is it a false impression though?

People who build their own business are more likely to be Republican than the PMC. It's not the whole story, obviously, but nothing is.

Nothing will turn a person Republican faster than owning their own business and seeing the heaping pile of shit that the government throws at you every chance you get.

It's a false impression because there are very few politicians of either description. Democrats running for office have mostly been in government service since they finished college and republicans running for office may have had careers beforehand, but usually as like, investment bankers and the like- few started businesses.

The pipeline to Congress favors types capable of setting their own hours. Most employers aren’t going to tolerate you disappearing for a couple of months because the state legislature is in session.

And state legislature pay is not great, so either you’re independently wealthy and don’t care, need to keep grinding while being in office, or you’re a scrub and the pay is an upgrade.

I once saw a lady who earnestly said she needed the money when she came before a local party endorsements committee for some small local office. And the pay was around $30,000.

More comments

Note that Trump is already heavily associated with having McDonald's as a cornerstone of the American diet.

Mcdonalds should represent the opposite of what the right stands for. It is the antithesis of tradition, beauty, culture, small business and family.

On the contrary, McDonald’s represents the true culture of the American proletariat. You may never have worked at McDonald’s, but you know someone who worked at McDonald’s. The elitist liberal media says that McDonald’s is unhealthy slop, but deep down, you know the truth. every blue-collar worker in America has done great things fueled by a quick stop at McDonald’s.

The elitist liberal media says that McDonald’s is unhealthy slop, but deep down, you know the truth.

Yup. Very few people are deluding themselves that a McDonalds burger is healthy, but it's honest. Yeah, ground beef isn't the healthiest meat, white bread buns aren't the most nutritious either, but from remembering what I used to think when I was a liberal 15 years ago, it's as if McDonalds had an Underpants Gnome-like scheme that increased their profits from sneaking in toxic sludge inside their food and customer base.

Now, Portillo's Chocolate Cake Shake, that is one thing that on my last trip to the US that I couldn't allow myself to eat just from looking at the caloric intake it represented. That actually seemed like it was designed to bring ruination to a body.

While i do appreciate that mcdonalds uses real beef patties in their staple burgers, they also peddle a lot of weird stuff that kindof pretends to be something else. If you look at their website that describes a hamburger you may notice that the line where they say they dont use fillers/preservatives etc has an asterisk next to it. The asterisk is because this claim only applies to their nationally available permanent hamburger menu items. Chicken nuggets for instance do not adhere to a strict chicken and breading philosophy.

I agree that the hippyish mindset of mcdonalds being made of dead pig anuses is a fantasy, but i dont think the mc rib is what i would consider "honest" food. Their french fries contain Hydrolyzed Wheat, so a usually gluten free food is not gluten free at mcdonalds.

I guess my point is that while i dont hate mcdonalds i would be wary of lionizing them with the word "honest"

Interesting and... kind of true? I think it was Kerouac who presented roadside hamburger stands as the embodiment of the Great American Spirit (maybe On the Road, but could have been a more obscure book) and Steinbeck definitely raved about mobile homes in Travels with Charley. (in which he drives around in a camper-truck and does DIY veterinary interventions on his poodle in 60s USA)

Why associate yourself with unhealthy, bland consumerist food? Mcdonalds should represent the opposite of what the right stands for. It is the antithesis of tradition, beauty, culture, small business and family.

I really can't get myself into the headspace of someone who doesn't understand what this stunt is about.

McDonnald's is low-status precisely for the reasons you point out, but people eat there because it's affordable, and they work there because they'll hire anyone right off the street. He's showing he's on the side of people dismissed as "low-status".

It's not affordable anymore though, so he's a bit late.

Senators Warren, Wyden, and Casey are on it and made a press release today:

https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/warren-casey-wyden-slam-mcdonalds-for-squeezing-customers-with-excessive-price-increases

Late news. They pivoted back.

$6 now gets you a McDouble, small fries, 4 piece nuggets, and a small coke. Counting app rewards all-in cost is closer to $5. It's real cheap.

But they do screw people who order a la carte items now.

It is, you just have to use the app.

If you ever find a mcdonalds app on my phone I'm already dead and robbed. :)

How are they not bankrupt? It was their only redeeming quality.

It can still be, it's just that they've tiered their offering to extract more money at the top of the market. They probably realized there's a lot of people eating at McDonald's who don't really go because it's cheap, and would be willing to pay over 10$ for a trio, so they added items for that market, but you can still eat what I'd call a full meal for around 5 US dollars.

Couple of things-

  1. McDonald’s is not exactly cheap, but it is slightly cheaper than the competition. Some people actually want and like greasy fast food and McDonalds is on the affordable end.

  2. Poor people really like McDonald’s treats for whatever reason. Think frappes and the like. I think it has to do with the amount of sugar in it.

  3. McDonald’s offers a lot of deals and coupons and the like. I have no interest in minmaxing for cheap Mickey d’s, but someone who wants to can easily do so rather effectively.

  4. McDonald’s stores are owned by franchisees, and corporate makes their money by extracting rent from franchisees with only a limited effect from sales.

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