site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   29423 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 19, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Given the low income urban persons they’re interacting with plus the political correlates of anxiety/depression, I suspect this initiative it strategic in getting more democratic votes. 50k registrations is huge! Doubtful that many will come close to voting but that’s easily Enough to sway the state and thus win the election for the Dems

I do feel like republicans just don’t have near the strategic thinking necessary for this sort of thing - does Trump have a Karl Rove who can help find a path to victory?

I do feel like republicans just don’t have near the strategic thinking necessary for this sort of thing

IME rather than a lack of thinking capacity it's a stubborn belief that "doing something like that would make us just as bad as them!" The right is still unaware that this a Culture War and I'm increasingly certain that this ignorance is willful and cowardly.

I don't know how difficult getting democrat favoring non-voters to turn out is. But getting republican favoring non-voters to turn out makes pulling teeth look like cutting your toenails.

doing something like that would make us just as bad as them!"

Everyone says this all the time. Both party supporters believe they have the moral high ground in whatever area they are incapable.

If Republicans could muster up a non-profit network that would do their bidding, they would do so without a second thought about the high ground. But they don't have this capability and dont have people willing or interested in building it. I think that lack of interest goes beyond "it is dirty and wrong."

Partly why I don't understand why @TracingWoodgrains gets so much push-back (on Twitter at least) on his Republicans Are Doomed piece. Maybe the conclusion is wrong, but the observations regarding disparity in human capital and reach are correct.

Think it mostly just goes back to Republicans with power caring about wealth generation and Democrats with power caring about power generation. AT least that is my theory.

Maybe they already do that!

I had a relative in a nursing home with dementia during the Trump/Hillary election. Someone was going room to room IN THE DEMENTIA WARD OF A NURSING HOME "helping" people fill out absentee ballots. My relative voted for Clinton because he recognized the name. I only know this because another relative happened to be visiting at the time and watched it happen. That other relative is extremely liberal and said that despite the extra vote for Clinton, she found the whole thing very disturbing.

That sounds like it could be a conspiracy... but towards what end? This happened in a solidly Republican town, and old people are even more Republican than baseline, so this could have been some kind of scheme from Republicans to turn out the vote.

Unless I read it wrong, the 50,000 number references the number of doctors they signed up to register voters. According to Google this is between 4-5% of all doctors in the United States. This number sounds unbelievable as I write it, but I'm no longer in a position to double check stuff at a screen. Did I quote that correctly?

Perhaps it is just the number of voter registrations and Aaron was sloppy with his writing? I can look tomorrow.

Are all of these people doctors, necessarily? One can well believe there's vast numbers of nurses who signed up.

Correct. The actual source says "healthcare professionals". This is much more believable.

Actually I suspect that a lot of them if examined would not be mentally fit to vote anyway. If someone is in the ER for a mental health episode, it’s obviously pretty severe, with either heavy drugs or commitment as real possibilities. Add in that a doctor, if you’re in acute distress, hold a lot of power and authority over them. I’d love to be a fly on the wall, because I have a suspicion that it’s at least somewhat implied that help is contingent on them registering to vote.

Doubtful that many will come close to voting

That's where ballot harvesting comes in. Or straight up fraud; intercept the ballots coming for the patients, fill 'em out, send 'em in.

Yeah it’s a shame the right doesn’t seem to have the will to engage in more aggressive ballot harvesting.

The right doesn't have the penetration into the right professions to pull it off -- this magnifies what Nybbler is saying, in that even if there is a right-wing social worker/doctor/whatever who wants to go around 'encouraging' people to fill out ballots, the other 99% of his cow orkers will be lined up around the corner waiting to rat him out.

The right can't do it for the same reasons they can't riot. The right can make 100 plausible accusations of ballot harvesting or fraud, and this will be "John Righty said, without evidence..." or "John Righty falsely accused..." and the courts will just dismiss the case. The left will respond with one accusation (true, false, or in one case a stunt to show how easy it is) and it will be taken entirely seriously, the media will crow about how this proves the right are the real cheaters, and the rightists involved will be prosecuted. For some reason even judges on the right prefer cases against the right than the left, perhaps feeling the right should be held to higher standards because they know better.

I’m not convinced it would work out well without the sort of institutional cover the left gets, even in its currently decaying state.

I remember discussion on right wing election twitter- so this would be much closer to the GOP establishment than the dissident right- in 2022 that Wisconsin had more white men with hunting licenses unregistered to vote than Biden's margin of victory in 2020, and complaints that there was no plan to register them.

These people would, if successfully registered, probably vote 95%+ republican. Based on my hunting buddies, though, convincing them to do something they don't want to do is a much steeper climb than it would be for depression patients. I suspect that unregistered natural republicans are, in general, much harder to register than unregistered natural democrats.

That Scott Pressler dude who has apparently been doing work registering voters in PA has definitely mentioned trying to reach out to hunters specifically for this reason.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats