This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In b4 someone unironically argues that Biden could order the military to arrest every Republican in the country and they would do it instead of mutinying.
Of course there’s presidential immunity for official acts. We can’t be having presidents going to jail all the time like Illinois governors.
I've seen stuff like that repeatedly on reddit today. "So Biden could just Seal Team 6 every republican appointee on the Supreme Court", etc, etc.
I mean, if he could do that, worrying about prosecution wouldn't stop him. He'd just Seal Team 6 anyone who tried. He could pardon himself on the way out of office, or more likely just remain President for Life.
More options
Context Copy link
I've met former special forces guys. I'm pretty sure they'd refuse to carry out domestic political assassinations ordered by a senile democrat when in the service, and I'm pretty sure this is generally true of actually-killing-people jobs. Someone with sufficient loyalty to just have the tip of the spear eliminate his political opposition does not have to worry about whether the law allows him to do so. He simply does it.
I'm about 98% sure that Biden couldn't find a big enough force to arrest Abbott or Desantis if they threatened to resist. I'm about 90% sure Trump would be in the same boat with Newsom or Hochul.
More options
Context Copy link
It is weird. It’s one of those “my enemies are soooo stupid” takes that makes you question why the Redditor didn’t stop and think “maybe I misunderstand their argument”
Unfortunately, that's just the state of public discourse these days. Basically everywhere but here, people are whipped into a froth either against the right or the left, and believes themselves to be in an existential fight for our society itself. People are, as Men In Black put it, "dumb panicky animals". And because of that, they are acting very stupid right now.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Why not?
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but when the Roman Republic tried that they descended into a series of bloody civil wars. Once prosecuting ex-politicians was on the table, their leaders realized that letting go of power meant being at the mercy of their successors. The inescapable conclusion was that the only thing to do was to never, ever let go of power. Eventually they emerged as an Empire ruled by a succession of military strongmen.
So that's one reason.
If you never hold politicians accountable you encourage corruption and tyranny. Holding politicians accountable means prosecuting them when they commit crimes.
We already prosecute politicians. The constant special pleading for Trump makes no sense.
If you only hold opposition politicians accountable, you are also encouraging corruption and tyranny. Hence why prosecutions of politicians needs to be even-handed, and why counter-corruption campaigns are an archetypical narrative justification for politically-motivated prosecutions by tyrannical governments.
Because you're dismissing objections as special pleading, rather than acknowledging like-to-like contemporary actions (and lack of actions).
Naturally if you ignore context, context-based objections likewise can be ignored as senseless.
More options
Context Copy link
I’m for accountability. But I think the forum for that is impeachment. The reason is there is too much risk that with venue shopping one can goose the jury and make the conviction political (see the NY trial as an example). Impeachment likely requires bipartisan agreement the conduct was beyond the pale. That, to me, is the correct approach.
McConnell seemed pretty pissed about J6, and didn't defend Trump at all. His stated argument was that Trump was already out of office, and therefore the judicial system was the correct forum. For all the talk about lawfare and political hitjobs, impeachment is also a highly political process, and Trump was likely protected from impeachment because McConnell didn't want to lose Trump voters.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Setting aside he Illinois governor bit, it's insane to expose the President to prosecution for executing the duties of the Presidency.
Congress is empowered to impeach the President. The Senate is empowered to try and remove him. The people are empowered to elect his opponent. This is how the system was designed.
Giving every one of the 10,000 podunk judges and DA's across the nation these same powers is madness. It's a heckler's veto. Some corrupt DA in Georgia shouldn't get to override the will of the people.
Why? If the president can't do his job without committing crimes, maybe we need to either review his job or the law. The constitution certainly doesn't suggest immunity from criminal liability.
Furthermore, is there are reason why this standard is particular to the presidency and not any elected official? Shouldn't Bob Menendez be accountable to his voters, not some dodgy DoJ official? Who are federal prosecutors to to contravene the will of Illinois' people by charging Mike Madigan?
There are too many hypothetical crimes. 3 felonies a day and all. A malicious reading of laws makes us all hypothetical criminals.
The Constitution states the responsibilities of the executive. They can not also be illegal. No mere law supercedes the Constitution.
More options
Context Copy link
Even if we did "fix" the 50,000+ pages of the U.S. code, as well as all state and local laws, there's no way to create a law code that can't be interpreted maliciously by one of the thousands of legal jurisdictions.
Scale matters. The severity of the crimes and the scope of the office should come into play.
But it really comes down to pragmatism. Do you want to be right, or do you want to have a functioning country? The only reason that elected officials are not routinely prosecuted is because it is not done. This is the mos maiorum of our country. The reason that parties haven't (thus far) used lawfare against their opponents is because they value the country over their own ideological victory.
They can already do this.
We already prosecute elected officials. If we concede to Trumpist threats every time it comes time to punish him for his lawlessness, we won't have a functioning country. Why not say the stubborn insistence that Trump must be impervious to prosecution and punishment is a threat to the stability of the country because the message it sends is that procedural politics are futile? If corrupt politicians will never face justice, why not deliver it yourself?
Why haven't you delivered it yourself? There must be real reasons within your psychology right?
I feel like our confusions here are similar. Rule of law seems unreasonably efficacious upon the people of this nation.
But the answer must reside within the both of us. Why haven't you, or I, personally, gone out and made killing some lawless politician or another our life's work?
For me, alongside being a bit selfish wrt how I spend my life- My certainty that it would be a net good for the people of this nation or this planet is quite low. Assassinating Trump would trigger civil war 2.0 or something just as bad.
It would also be a major defection... which isn't the sort of thing I stand for- except when I deem it absolutely necessary to prevent an 'always defect against jesusbot' equilibrium. I don't judge us as there yet. My life is far too blessed for that.
I'm sure you have similar reasons. For now at least. Maybe we are approaching that tipping point... where skilled and smart people start stepping over that edge and heads start rolling...
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Again to me, you want any prosecution of the president to be so clear that it is bipartisan. If you do that, then the risk of spiraling lawfare is heavily limited.
There's another stable equilibrium: One side is so dominant that they can simply impose their will on the other side.
IMO, the impetus for the lawfare is that Democrats thought they had fully captured the institutions, and could now impose their will with no risk of retaliation.
We're at this weird spot in history, due to social media, where the elite seems a lot more unipolar than it really is. If you go by the official statements of corporations, media, and universities, then like 90%+ of the elite are fully woke. But I think this is a false consensus, and there are a lot of shy Tories out there. Elon Musk liberating Twitter really freed up the discourse. A lot of elites are coming out of the closet now. David Sachs can host a Trump fundraiser in San Francisco and get a lot of donations with almost no pushback.
I mean, there are shades of this with the Elon Musk stuff since that's not even pretending, but with Trump it's more like "well, we're obviously correct, so people will agree with us, right?".
More options
Context Copy link
IMO this is a bullshit story right-wingers tell themselves to rationalize power grabs. Throw in regular ominous remarks about the dangers of prosecuting (their) politicians just so people understand and it looks more like a story of incredible Democratic naivete where they thought a conservative judiciary would act in a principled manner rather than closing ranks to protecting their guy.
They didn't close ranks, though; they left most of the charges against Trump potentially open.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Sure I guess. But when one faction controls everything law qua process is irrelevant. But when they are multiple factions law inherently needs to be a process. I’m suggesting a process.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link