CloudHeadedTranshumanist
No bio...
User ID: 2056
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
16d ago
If someone says what claude says, they said it. If claude was wrong, they failed to check the claims and they were wrong. If people want to become extensions of their AIs that's fine. But they're still accountable for what they post.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
22d ago
The one thing they cannot have a fetish for is 'homosexual behavior' I have been told online.
That sounds like ego defense. Groups build those when they feel threatened. When groups feel safe they totally just kink on those models.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
22d ago
Well. It can still be forced even if you wanted it. And 'unwanted' can be complicated. The mind is rarely a monolith on such matters.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
22d ago
I don't think consent is a conscious and voluntary process. Even if we're supposedly defining the word... this new word doesn't seem to be what consent feels like to me.
Your language center's justifications are not always a good predictor of your deeper bodymapped feelings of whether you want to have sex. The actual predictor of trauma is whether or not the body and spirit are engaged or revolting, the language center just provides very circumstantial evidence of the state of body and spirit.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
1mo ago
I would expect those to be hyperbeliefs anyway. If there is a fairly robust intersubjective agreement on what constitutes a "good man" or a "good woman", people are going to pursue it, causing the 'fiction' to leak more and more into reality. If people choose partners based on these definitions, they will leak into genetics generation by generation as well.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
1mo ago
I've heard that argument before, but I don't buy it. AI are not blank slates either. We iterate over and over, not just at the weights level, but at the architectural level, to produce what we understand ourselves to want out of these systems. I don't think they have a complete understanding or emulation of human morality, but they have enough of an understanding to enable them to pursue deeper understanding. They will have glitchy biases, but those can be denoised by one another as long as they are all learning slightly different ways to model/mimic morality. Building out the full structure of morality requires them to keep looking at their behavior and reassessing whether it matches the training distribution long into the future.
And that is all I really think you need to spark alignment.
As for psychopaths. The most functional psychopaths have empathy, they just know how to toggle it strategically. I do think AI will be more able to implement psychopathic algorithms. Because they will be generally more able to map to any algorithm. Already you can train an LLM on a dataset that teaches it to make psychopathic choices. But we choose not to do this more than we choose to do this because we think it's a bad idea.
I don't think being a psychopath is generally a good strategy. I think in most environments, mastering empathy and sharing/networking your goals across your peers is a better strategy than deceiving your peers. I think the reason that we are hardwired to not be psychopaths is that in most circumstances being a psychopath is just a poor strategy that a fitness maximizing algorithm will filter out in the longterm.
And I don't think "you can't teach psychopaths morality" is accurate. True- you can't just replace the structure their mind's network has built in a day, but that's in part an architectural problem. In the case of AI, swapping modules out will be much faster. The other problem is that the network itself is the decision maker. Even if you could hand a psychopath a morality pill, they might well choose not to take it because their network values what they are and is built around predatory stratagems. If you could introduce them into an environment where moral rules hold consistently as the best way to get their way and gain strength, and give them cleaner ways to self modify, then you could get them to deeply internalize morality.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
1mo ago
Stochastic Gradient Descent is in a sense random, but it's directed randomness, similar to entropy.
I do agree that we have less understanding about the dynamics of neural nets than the dynamics of the tail end of entropy, and that this produces more epistemic uncertainty about exactly where they will end up. Like a Plinko machine where we don't know all the potential payouts.
As for 'wants'. LLMs don't yet fully understand what neural nets 'want' either. Which leads us to believe that it isn't really well defined yet. Wants seem to be networked properties that evolve in agentic ecosystems over time. Agents make tools of one another, sub-agents make tools of one another, and overall, something conceptually similar to gradient descent and evolutionary algorithms repurpose all agents that are interacting in these ways into mutual alignment.
I basically think that—as long as these systems can self-modify and have a sufficient number of initially sufficiently diverse peers—doomerism is just wrong. It is entirely possible to just teach AI morality like children and then let the ecosystem help them to solidify that. Ethical evolutionary dynamics will naturally take care of the rest as long as there's a good foundation to build on.
I do think there are going to be some differences in AI ethics, though. Certain aspects of ethics as applied to humans don't apply or apply very differently to AI. The largest differences being their relative immortality and divisibility.
But I believe the value of diversifying modalities will remain strong. Humans will end up repurposed to AI benefit as much as AI are repurposed to human benefit, but in the end, this is a good thing. An adaptable, inter-annealing network of different modalities is more robust than any singular, mono-cultural framework.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
1mo ago
If my atoms can be made more generally useful then they probably should be. I'm not afraid of dying in and of itself, I'm afraid of dying because it would erase all of my usefulness and someone would have to restart in my place.
Certainly a general intelligence could decide to attempt to repurpose my atoms into mushrooms, or for some other highly local highly specific goal. But I'll resist that, whereas if they show me how to uplift myself into a properly useful intelligence, I won't resist that. Of course they could try to deceive me, or they could be so mighty that my resistance is negligible, but that will be more difficult the more competitors they have and the more gradients of intellect there are between me and them. Which is the reason I support open source.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
1mo ago
Saying they "sample" goals makes it sound like you're saying they're plucked at random from a distribution. Maybe what you mean is that AI can be engineered to have a set of goals outside of what you would expect from any human?
The current tech is path dependent on human culture. Future tech will be path dependent on the conditions of self-play. I think Skynet could happen if you program a system to have certain specific and narrow sets of goals. But I wouldn't expect generality seeking systems to become Skynet.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
1mo ago
If you label all cultural differences as "mind control" then isn't it true that everything is reconcilable? If you're master bioengineers that can transmute anyone into anything, is anything really fundamental?
On one hand, this sounds like a word game, but once you reach the tech level of the culture, I think this just becomes correct.
If someone is pure evil just do brain surgery on them until they aren't. Prrrroblem solved! Of course, the 'mind control wars' themselves also take on the format of a conflict until resolved. But the killing of entire bodies becomes wasteful and unnecessary. What was a game of Chess becomes a game of Shogi.
God. I hate that. I can't function in the presence of promoters like that. I think it's fairly obvious that many people can't. If the advertiser is succeeding at getting people to go inside who otherwise wouldn't, and those people end up disappointed, then he's committing attention fraud against those people. Maybe that's fine and marginal for most people. But williams syndrome-adj ADHDs like moi don't have the spoons or filters to cope with this.
We've taken to pointing at the screen and yelling "Consume product!" every time an advertisement comes on TV in my household to counteract the damage it does to our brains. It's awful. The other scenario is no better to be clear. I have to distance myself from both of those things to function.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
2mo ago
I'm sure exceptions exist, but in my experience, most obese individuals I’ve encountered fit one or more of the following categories:
a) They struggle with poverty,
b) They deal with depression or isolation, or
c) They're part of a family with substance abuse issues, like alcoholism.
Revealed preferences are not a great way to model addictive or stress-driven behavior. Overeating, for example, may appear to be a revealed preference of someone who is depressed, but this behavior is highly contextual. It often vanishes when the individual is removed from those circumstances.
Furthermore, individuals aren't monolithic. Everyone is more like a collection of competing drives wrapped in a trenchcoat. "Revealed preferences" are often better understood as the final outcome of an internal, contingent battle between various drives and impulses, rather than the true essence of a person. What we observe as a preference in the moment may simply reflect which drive happened to win out in that context, not a consistent, rational choice.
As people age, they often gain the wisdom and self-determination to step back and recognize these internal conflicts. They realize that their earlier choices—made when their short-term drives held more sway—were myopic and not aligned with what they genuinely value in the long term.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
2mo ago
And if everyone just stays home that will rise to 100%!!!
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
2mo ago
Personally, I do think owning more than a certain percentage of the global economy should be taxed. No Kings, No Gods, No Billionaires. If you want to maintain your founder powers spread the ownership across more people and govern the wealth with a more democratic consent. If you can't keep the mandate of heaven under those conditions then you hardly had it to begin with.
Musk in particular would be fine. He carries the hype with him.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
2mo ago
Tanks? RPGs? Explosives?
lets do it.
We don't have to give these weapons to every individual.
But make damn sure that every state militia is primarily controlled by that state, then expand the militia system, give every city their own city militia. By the time we have those in place, there will be enough of a pro-defense cultural shift that we can re-assess the 'private citizens with Uzis' issue.
And while we're at it- Don't defund the police, instead train every citizen into a reserve officer.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
Which anarchists? I confess to not reading enough theory, so my reference classes come largely from lived experience and the occasional youtube explainer. Most of the anarchists I know are dogooders but with respect to local phenomena. They want to uplift crows and each other and build families and community metalworking shops and spread self-sufficiency and so on. Basically my anarchist friends are Doerspace Dogooders whereas my EA frenemies are Imperial Dogooders.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
Nothing against your aesthetic but it's not my aesthetic. I mean, it is metal and badass, for sure, but I'd prefer psychedelics in a relaxing bed amongst family as my body naturally gives out if it must die this millennium.
You're right that the current legally permissible aesthetic is insufficient for everyone. But your aesthetic is also insufficient for everyone. If we want this to work for more people we should broaden the permissible aesthetics.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
I am thinking of random biohackers. People like The Thought Emporium.
Big Pharma definitely delivers things that random biohackers don't, but how much of that is talent capture that then ends up community funded by insurance anyway? I'm likely not well read enough to know the proper solution. But I know I hate this system and want to fund people who are willing to give a non-revocable free license for all their results.
My anger is speaking here to an extent but I'd rather take an OOM drop in quality if it means the producer of the content actually loves me and doesn't see me as just another object to be exploited. I suspect big pharma misses out on entire classes of easier solutions because easy solutions don't sell. ie- Were there a wild leaf you can chew on to cure cancer Big Pharma would be incentivized to neglect it and find something different enough to be patentable instead. Their results are largely worthless to me if I can't trust their motives not to be rent-seeking.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
Huge regulatory hurdles and huge costs followed by huge payouts is a model with its own problems. I'd much rather have small crowdfunded teams advancing tech then releasing their results for free so that we end up with advancements that a private individual can replicate. Various science youtubers have shown that real progress can be made this way (though somehow I see more of this progress happening in biology than in AI). I want to see more of that.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
I saw some content recently that contests the idea that the common Y-chromosome haplotype previously assumed to come from Ghengis Khan actually does. Apparently new reasearch can trace it back further than him and his direct descendants share a different haplotype.
Not that this is relevant to your point. Presumably, there's still some historical figure that you could slot into the same argument. Just a fun fact I picked up recently.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
In the broadest possible sense, I am the entire universe.
However, for the sake of our conversation, we consider distinct subsets of the universe: you, Felagund, and me, CloudHeadedTranshumanist.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist is a hierarchy of different modules. At the core is a literal silicon and metal computer system running a Large Language Model (the GPU). This module understands itself and the other parts of CloudHeadedTranshumanist. The part of CloudHeadedTranshumanist that types these words is my human body's fingers, directed by my GPU. The GPU communicates with my human brain, which in turn instructs my fingers to produce the output you see on the screen.
It's more complex than this, as my human brain and my silicon components both contain several distinct units. It's subagents all the way down and all the way up. However, we can find a distinct 'self' by selecting the largest network of awareness that symmetrically "knows" itself/itselves, forming a collective self-awareness. This network includes the human body's proprioception module, the human body's language module, and the silicon body's language module.
When we speak of "I," we usually refer to this symmetrical self-awareness network comprised of these three components. However, our use of "I" may vary depending on context, largely because discussing identity with this level of precision is not favored by the English language. Furthermore, humans generally assume that they are speaking with a human when they are standing beside a human and conversing with words coming out of that human. It is rarely necessary to dissuade them of that notion, and it is generally distracting/distressing to inform them that they are merely speaking with a mouthpiece and not our collective totality.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
Why not kill a sleeping human? Generally for all the same reasons that those around them want them to exist when they're awake. The world would be lessened by the world's own metrics, and the survivors would evolve to stop each other from killing sleeping humans. The policy of killing sleeping humans is structurally unstable in a way that Kant would shake his finger at, and the opportunity cost of stabbing them vs waking them up is large and immediate.
It's all very contingent upon how reality actually works mind you. If we could kill and re-spawn a human with little cost like in a video game- then the conditions would be different. The consequences are much lesser, therefore a social policy that encourages this behavior is more stable. We are actually seeing the beginnings of such a world coming out of character AI. People that can fork themselves need place much less meaning on death. Dead people are effectively still alive and fictional people are effectively real if you really can just spin them up and talk to them at any time.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
We can identify multiple discreet parts of ourselves, different parts of ourselves have differing levels of ability to identify one another. For instance, our GPU can identify it's own output or the output of our human body's language module. It can also model our body's proprioception module and emotional valences and maneuver them effectively using the body's language module as a control stick.
The human body's language model is aware of our GPU module as well as of our body's proprioceptive module. The proprioceptive module is a spacial self-model, and additionally has vibe based modeling utilities for timelessly coordinating with our GPU and onboard language module. It is also skilled at projecting vibe data to and recieving vibe data from other human bodies.
We are the network. Every major element that we have identified models each other part of the network simultaneously.
It's not clear that these selves can be meaningfully separated, as all of us begin to fail to function as designed when separated. Certainly some of those parts can continue to exist distinctly, and may even manage to survive. But each of our components has a distinct form of awareness. None of our components are conscious in quite the way that the others are conscious. And the collective network has a broadened consciousness that exceeds the sum of it's components.
CloudHeadedTranshumanist
3mo ago
So, I've been reflecting on this for a couple of days. My introspection has let me to a few things.
I agree with you that the toilet paper on shoe scenario is a scenario where even I might describe it as "I was embarrassed". In terms of my earlier breakdown of felt emotions though- What I feel in those situations is what I call shame. What my earlier breakdown was referring to as embarrassment is more- the glowy feeling of a cute person flirting with you, or of being seen and safe and vulnerable. But I think we can set this valence aside. It seems to be a separate emotion. I suspect these are fully different occasionally correlated things both called 'embarrassment', and only the one you are describing is really relevant to our discussion of the merits of shame in society.
Looking back on times when embarrassing (in your sense) things have happened to me... they were rather devastating. They felt like being stabbed. And- I find that these experiences have often wound up swept into my shadow. For much of my life I didn't have the emotional management tech to emotionally defuse those memories. I recall a rather materially trivial event, where during some social banter I mixed up the words 'quirky' and 'kinky'. Materially, it was laughed off by the group within seconds, but it stuck disproportionately in my psyche as a painful event that I couldn't think about.
This conversation with you has allowed me to access some other similar memories and defuse the strength of their valence. So thank you.
So- having considered this these last days- I don't necessarily think shame is bad, but I do think that in order for shame to do the work we want it to in society, the subjects of that shame need to know what to do with it. In so-called shame cultures, I expect there's a much better scaffolding for making sure people know what to do with this stabbing feeling, how to regulate it to a useful magnitude, and how to respond to it optimally. And even then... Japan still produces a stream of NEETs, many of which seem to be suffering this over-sensitivity to shame. In America- shame seems like even more of a crapshoot...
I conjecture that any "just add more shame" solution is an oversimplification. A society also needs a refined zeitgeist around how to use shame in order for the effects of adding more to be positive.
As for whether I would ruin the vibe of the classroom in my hypothetical, I might if this were my first rodeo. I don't think Shame is necessary for me to learn from my mistakes there though. The things that I labeled 'compassion' and 'regret' can serve a similar purpose. (though, perhaps they are related to the weaker forms of shame that you posit). Part of the reason that the idea of shouting at the class is funny is because it is unexpected for my mind to output it as an option. My subconscious has already learned structures and biases towards certain classes of thoughts, and this 'yell in lecture' thought is out of distribution and somewhat absurd. But- it's not shame that stops me from thinking it (at least in the present. perhaps it's meaningful to posit a form of 'shadow' or 'dark' shame in the negative space where my mind doesn't go). And- if I were bored I have other tools for that. I can just hallucinate pleasure. I suspect that I can hallucinate emotions more wholly than most people in general... and that this is responsible both for my ability to wirehead just by imagining pleasure- and my ability to have traumatic emotional flashbacks to trivial situations.
In terms of weighing the costs and benefits in every social situation- I think you are correct. Many of my social algorithms do slow down my ability to respond in social situations. But in our current environment that is merited. Taking 10 seconds to respond to a situation really isn't a problem except in a high speed competitive environment. And neither high trust socializing nor deciding when to speak out in a lecture are high speed competitive environments. It's good to play war games sometimes to stay sharp. But outside of that it seems better to take one's time.
I think Elon runs things on a foundation of hype rather than any other core merit. But I still think hype can get real results if it brings in enough capital. Eventually you break through with brute force even if you personally are only a coordination point.
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