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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   3856 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for May 19, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Why are tattoos ubiquitous these days? Almost everyone seems to have some where I live, even young teenagers. Are people really going to go the rest of their lives and be glad that they have a sagging triangle or cross or butterfly on them? How can I convince my kids in 5 years that they do not need or want to have one just to fit in, and that they're too expensive and most people will regret having them for various reasons?

It seems to me that there is likely a culture war component to this as well, as tattoos seem to be wannabe gangster, rebellious, and individualist, even though you'd probably be more rebellious just staying tattoo free these days.

My favorite teacher always told us tattoos were stupid because identifying marks show up on arrest warrants and interpol dossiers, so real professionals would never be caught dead with one.

Best thing you could say to influence 11 year old boys.

How can I convince my kids in 5 years that they do not need or want to have one just to fit in, and that they're too expensive and most people will regret having them for various reasons?

Do things that get them to respect your values and opinions. There is no argument you can provide that will convince them if that foundation isn't there.

I'll also give you a different perspective, since there are many people who are anti-tattoo here. If you really hate the idea of tattoos on your kids, you can consider my point of view and work against it for maximum protection. Personally, I would say your post is a great argument against bad tattoos, and making permanent decisions based on peer pressure. Hopefully your kids don't fall into either of those traps. It's important for you to instill a good sense of taste and self-assuredness in them - that may or may not mean that they end up getting into tattoo culture, but hopefully that means they avoid a saggy butterfly tramp stamp.

I only recently got into tattoos, and I am in my 30s. I had no desire in my younger years - my earliest memory of a tattoo was a no-longer-recognizable rose on my mum, which she didn't like, and I thought was weird. I recently got into tattoos because I am very familiar with my body, and I like art. Now I can get a tattoo and see cool art any time I want, and I don't miss having bare skin (I might have when I was younger). It's a similar experience to something like carrying a nice pocket knife (which I also do when I am working). I can take it out, look at it, and it brightens my day a little every time. And similar to a nice pocket knife, I expect it will last decades, and change over time. Do I expect it to look the same for decades? Definitely not, but seeing the change is part of the experience. Old tattoos have a certain charm for some people, just like grandpa's over-sharpened slipjoint.

Of course there are people who get tattoos for the image of being a gangster or individualualist (and of course there is an irony to the latter that they will never understand). The majority of tattoos, like the majority of any cultural expression, reflect bad taste (as you note with your examples). But I think that's a bad argument, because it doesn't apply to everyone, and even the people it does apply to won't think that is does. I think tattoos have become ubiquitous in part because they allow anyone to showcase their taste. Whether it's good or bad, that's irrelevant. What matters is finding people who share it or respect it, and tattoos do that well. They can be an immediate talking point, and for people who are really into tattoos, they are a hobby like any other to bond over - both the result on your skin, and the experience of getting them.

The other aspect to their popularity is that no one can take them away. You note their longevity as a negative point, but that's double-edged. Go back to the pocket knife example - they are durable, can be beautiful, and are certainly more useful than a tattoo. But they are also extremely easy to lose, and produced in large numbers (well, aside for extremely expensive customs). Tattoos fill a gap that is hard to fill in contemporary life: individualized modification, which is an external representation of change that you enact on your surroundings. Some people like modifying their cars, some people like modifying their homes, and some like working in their gardens. But the fact is that tattoos can be less expensive than any of these, and are more accessible and meaningful for many. Many younger people can't afford their own spaces, which means they can't meaningfully modify their environments to reflect their tastes - but they can modify their bodies.

So maybe get your kids into landscaping?

Aside from having some form of output (if they are prone to needing that) and building a foundation of respect for your opinion as their parent, you have to protect them from the notion that tattoos are normal. That's tough because eventually you will have no control over their social circle, and many normal people have tattoos these days. Having friends or colleagues with tattoos is the biggest impact, I would guess. I started getting tattooed because my partner has tattoos, and I wanted to have that shared experience. I think that is something different from peer pressure. It's not the idea that you should do something because others want you to do it, but the idea that you can do something because you want to and the people you respect won't judge you for it.

Good luck.

If I believed that there was a tattoo that perfectly encapsulated something essential about me (or my kids), and I knew it would do that forever, then I'd be in favor of such a tattoo. I just don't think that actually exists for me, or maybe anyone else. And it's certainly not gonna be the flaming skull head snake-rose combo. I do worry that people get tattoos these days for mostly bad reasons that won't hold up for any length of time. I talk to my friends who get them, and it sounds like they put close to 0 thought into their next tat, like "idk, I like owls so I figured why not get an owl riding a horse". And I also worry about the normalization aspect, too that you mention.

I suppose I also think there's a certain pride that I take in having unmarred skin, being my natural self, that I would like to instill onto my kids. A natural body is prettier than most tattooed ones. Tattoos are certainly addicting and people who start often end up having the opposite value, trying to think about always getting the next one, seeing how little of their body can remain natural.

I think tattoos have become ubiquitous in part because they allow anyone to showcase their taste. Whether it's good or bad, that's irrelevant.

How long does one's taste really last for before it should naturally start to change? Could tattoos have a retarding effect on one's growth as people struggle (subconsciously) to maintain their same taste for the rest of their life to not have buyers remorse?

I think the points you bring up vary by person.

I had similar thoughts when I was younger (hence why I waited until I was in my 30s). I used to specifically say that I thought natural skin was nicer than any tattoo... then I started looking at tattoos I actually liked. I have always had a lot of confidence in my own taste, probably from looking back and being quite happy in the things I surrounded myself with and created no matter how old I am or was when I made them. What if that were to change? It didn't, and I don't think it ever will: I still like what I like. While my tastes are always changing, I don't see the previous iterations of my own taste as a foreign object - sometimes they are quite refreshing.

Personally I never really felt that meaning in an image is important. The meaning is less about the image, and more about the associative memories surrounding the tattoo, so there's no drive to find the perfect image (for me), or fear that the idea will change. It's more like a personal memory for me than a statue built to commemorate something specific - but that sort of thing is not a hard line for a lot of people. The idea that an image transposed into my skin, chosen by me, could feel foreign is also a foreign idea to me at this point, but certainly not unheard of for others. In fact, I have even heard some people say that it is a useful psychological breakthrough for them to integrate a new tattoo into their perception of themself. I suppose that speaks to the vast underlying reasons people have for getting tattooed. As another commenter mentioned, it is a bit ritualistic. As you note, it's addictive in many ways.

Realistically, I think your best bet is to focus on everything but tattoos, since firm directives without any backbone will get you no where with rebellious kids, or with kids who are smart enough to think for themselves. What are the reasons someone would never even consider tattoos as an option (rather than having to weigh both sides)? Well, in short, they have hobbies, interests, friends, and investments far outside the scope of tattoos. Why do people get tattoos? To rebel, to modify, to stake a claim, to look cool, to appreciate, to remember, to cover themselves... among many other reasons. You need to consider how your kids will either not run into those problems, or will have strategies that solve those sorts of things in a satisfying way.

It's the Classic Geeks MOPS and Sociopaths model applied across status in different subcultures. From the time I was 14 to today, I've been a part of some subculture in which the super-serious hardcore guys were covered in tattoos, the regulars all had a few with varying visibility, and I was weird for not having any tattoos at all. Boxing, attending local punk rock shows in warehouses and basements, crossfit, rock climbing, I've always had some hobbies where everyone has a tattoo or seven. The question among my friends was never "Why do you have a tattoo?" it was "Hey FiveHour, why don't you have any tattoos yet?" This holds across a lot of other hobbies and subcultures, like motorcycles or the military. The dynamic, regardless of hobby, is that the guys who make money from the hobby (whether a lot or a little) are more likely to be more heavily tatted, as they don't have to worry about judgment from the "straight" world. The rest are imitating the higher status members of the subculture. As we're seeing more and more professionals and normal citizens take up hobbies like rock climbing and crossfit instead of hobbies like golf, we're going to see more and more professionals and normal citizens get tattoos. The gumbies want to look like the old timers, and a tattoo is a way to "buy" credibility.

This also parallels the decline of the corporate dress code. Suits and ties went from a natural status item "When you're at work, you dress the way rich people dress all the time;" to an artificial imposition, the monkey suit, "nobody dresses like this off the clock, we all know that we take off our suits as soon as we get home, and nobody goes out in a tie unless they don't have time to change." As soon as a suit and a clean white dress shirt became affordable to the average working stiff, it became unfashionable and the upper classes began to work their way into our culture of casual dress. You get the phenomenon of flouting the dress code as a status symbol, which arguably starts with go-to-hell pants and related items in the preppy subculture which were as obnoxious as possible while still being within prep school and country club dress codes, and runs through the apish imitation of Zuckerberg's refusal to wear formal clothing. Geniuses and the highly valuable were allowed to flout dress codes, so midwits ape them and flout dress codes in hope that people will perceive it as high status. Same dynamic with tattoos. The rainmaker has visible tattoos as a status symbol, he is above the losers in HR who would discipline him. Others ape him, to try to show that they are also above HR.

Much as berets in military uniforms went from elite commando units to part of the standard, tattoos have gone from symbols of the absolutely dedicated to alternative cultures to silly play-acting alt-hobbies. We've gone from a standard in professional settings of "no one has tattoos," to a standard of "if you have a tattoo no one should ever see it," to a standard of "if you have tattoos, you should be able to cover all of them up." We're inching towards a standard of "We all have tattoos, but you should be able to cover most of them up." Increasingly it's expected that people will have tattoos, that everyone has them, and as that happens it's going to make less and less sense that they can't be visible. Just as people used to wear suits and ties to work, and to go out for a drink, then slowly it declined to the point where few wear them to work and no one wears them out; now people conceal tattoos at work, but don't at home, and slowly they'll reveal more of them at work.

As for your kids, short of moving to Lancaster or Medina, do your best to raise them with long time horizons on their mind. Getting a tattoo is really fun, but you're stuck with it forever, so people who think short term tend to get more of them. If your kids are long term thinkers, they're likely to never get one, and if they do want to they're likely to put so much thought into it that they never end up pulling the trigger anyway.

Though, some of the arguments you make in your post strike me as piss poor. "Your tattoo will look stupid when you're old and saggy;" "Ok but I'll be old and saggy anyway, and the internet is full of dudes telling me I'll hit 'the wall' soon and it won't matter after that." What good is avoiding regret, anyway? Tattoos aren't really very expensive, unless you're having a huge complicated piece done by a well known artist, a couple hundred bucks will get you good custom work on a small piece at a clean professional studio, and if you order straight out of their book it'll be cheaper still. "Hip to be Square" is an argument that's been made since, well, quite a while, but never really been landed worth a damn.

You should work on sharpening your anti-tattoo points before your kids hit their late teens. I still remember going on a double date with a single friend of ours, who had only met her date in passing before this. The kid shows up, and he's got APPLE PIE tattooed across his knuckles. Yes, Apple was split across both hands. He got it done as a gag at a house party in high school where someone had brought a tattoo gun. The date was over for him right there.

Tattoos are degenerate and an affront to God. I always dislike people who have them at least a little. One of the best signs (along with being fat) of poor impulse control and general stupidity in an adult.

You’re coming in a bit too hot, here.

Huh. This is actually your first mod warning at all. I guess that means you definitely know better, and just hate tattoos that much.

A fair warning, it was rude.

I see a much bigger rise in prevalence in women and assume the usual causes, for instance I've had a number of female friends and family members asked me if they should get a tattoo, if they'll be judged for it, will men hate it etc. I say nothing. Which is the same approach I assume most people use. The judgement for tattoos is still there, but saying anything that can be interpreted as critical to a woman is such a bad idea that people say nothing and the gap in preferences goes unchallenged.

It sounds to me like you are doing your friends and family a serious disservice. If they ask you for your opinion, and you really do think it's a bad idea to get a tattoo, then imo you should tell them that.

https://x.com/robkhenderson/status/1323302896352530433

Oy. At least cite the stats directly!

I actually made this post because I was at a community pool and noticed some mid-teen girls who seemed to be the extremely shy and introverted type, the type who I would have expected to be more reserved. And even they had a few tattoos on their arms.

'Yes girl, get that skin ink. Any man who doesn't appreciate your body art isn't worth your time to begin with. Why are your dating options restricted to gloomy wannabe artists and underemployed manchildren? No idea, just keep slaying queen'

gloomy wannabe artists

My ears are burning.

Yeah, weird, my hostility to tattoos is dropping by the minute. Underemployed manchildren too, you say?

Tatted anorexic goths look great at 20, but tats look shit on even skinny old women. Collagen is magic skin elasticity juice, and the potions stopping their work means three wolf moon starts looking like droopy and drippy

don't worry babe my soundcloud totally speaks to the soul, got two new listens last week. Spotifys gonna pick me up on the trending page. we are out of rollies now though so can you pick up another shift at Safeway?

STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT

Joking aside I have a real job and music is a passion project I pursue in my spare time.

They are increasingly popular in Poland. A tattoo place I pass by once in a while is called "ACOTATANATO" (translates to "but what will daddy say to this?", a mystery why it's not "ACOTATONATO" which is still correct and flows better) - a vapid, somewhat common reason, I imagine. Rebellion in the face overbearing authority, except such prepackaged rebellion is common, and authority in retreat.

Young people often make decisions which their elders would have told them they would later regret. The structures that moderated this effect have been getting steadily weaker since the late 60s.

That’s probably a big part of the increase in tattoos.

I don't have an insightful answer to your question but I hate tats myself. A lot of my friends, even if roughly my age, have them, and the tattooing stories all sound inane to me.

The popular belief about Japan is that tattoos are a signal of organized criminal membership (Yakuza) and this has been my own experience. The view that Japanese therefore find tattoos "scary," however, I'd take issue with. Japanese are very aware generally that tattoo cultural norms are different outside Japan, and seeing a tattooed foreigner isn't particularly traumatizing, but probably does seem like a class signal. In other words because the yaks generally attract the socially disaffected (e g. burakumin or Zainichi Korean, etc.) and then gang members have the irezumi (traditionally tattooed with bamboo needles) sleeves and back-tats etc., to be seen tattooed is to be unconsciously associated with the dregs of society. Like seeing someone with a gold incisor, even if you know they're not in some gang or whatever.

For this reason many places where all or part of the full body is on view such as pools, hot spring resorts, or sento (public baths) have signs everywhere that tattooed patrons are forbidden. (Although I've seen at least one Japanese man at a hot spring with a tattoo on his shoulder, and to my awareness nothing was ever said to him and he certainly was not kicked out. Then again he was a big dude and onsen staff are generally dainty women or old spent dudes. If tattoo guy had the stones to wade into the hot spring without fear of social rebuke, he pretty much was home free.)

There are also sento baths that do not forbid tattoos and these are usually straightforward, no-nonsense public baths in dingier areas.

I was raised to see tattoos as trashy. My dad was in the Navy and apparently this view lodged in his mind. He also liked Catholics, though wasn't one himself, because he said the Catholic guys were the one group that didn't immediately visit brothels at port. (I cannot verify the accuracy of this.)

Back on topic: Lots of young Japanese women now seem much more interested in tattoos than their parents, but only seemingly those already immature in their social development or mildly out-of-step anyway (e.g. they are also interested in foreigners.) For guys if you're a musician or otherwise resolved to stay on the fringe (artist, bar owner, etc.) you can get away with tats, probably.

People are dying to understand their life through symbols and condensed wisdom. Tattoos are the primitive form of this, the detailing of one’s ideals / status / life progress onto the body, as you always have the body with you and your body is always on display to others (tattoos in Europe are at least 6000 years old). This is probably why tattoos and astrology have much in common. Then there are other motives. It is a “gauntlet” experience, where the pain must be experienced to obtain the end reward, which is its own primitive ritual of costly signal. It is a costly signal of one’s own commitment to an identity, it is saying to oneself, “this is important and I commit to me”; human identity is fluid and capricious without identity-forming rituals, and tattooing takes the fluid and inscribes it permanently to the flesh. Lastly it allows one to imitate and conjoin to a celebrity or social scene, but that has more to do with instantiating the reasons above.

It can be worth it to look into the history of tattoos. For some it's an unfalsifiable high cost symbol of permanent allegiance to a group or culture. People like to belong and they're willing to pay the price.

That said, I think Gandalf got it right and so I'm against tattoos for myself:

“For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!'

I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.

I liked white better,' I said.

White!' he sneered. 'It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken.'

In which case it is no longer white,' said I. 'And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.'”

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