MathWizard
Good things are good
13m ago
What is the frequency of ICE arrests and/or deportations being false positives? (The person is actually legally allowed to be here and ICE has no legitimate business with them but grabs them anyway). How would I ascertain or estimate this information from an unbiased source? People on the left keep complaining about this and I can't tell if they're being genuine or just Motte and Baileying their objection to illegals being arrested and deported. How do I tell if this is a real issue or not?
(I apologize for this being potentially culture war fodder, but figured it didn't belong in the main thread since I don't have actual discussion or commentary of my own to provide, and am more looking for links to external sources rather than you telling me your own potentially biased opinion.)
CertainlyWorse
No one is coming. It's just you.
29m ago
If ICE stopped being masked goons who look like they came straight out of a bad YA dystopia movie,
Your terms are acceptable. This can be accomplished by arresting and punishing those on the left that are attempting to dox the ICE agents and use intimidation, violence and other tactics (even stochastically) against the agents and their families to demoralise them from their work. Once the doxxers are significantly deterred to the point the criminal behaviour is drastically reduced, and the doxing threat against ICE agents for doing their jobs is removed, then ICE agents can go maskless again.
and became normal accountable government officials who behave kindly and civilly
If this is not code for 'become ineffectual' and actually means that you wish them to hold the above demeanor as they effectively do their jobs then this is also acceptable. Effectively doing their jobs however includes an appropriate use of force against those they are arresting and also those attempting to disrupt law enforcement activities.
idkwcpgw
34m ago
It's 100% real, it's one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my entire life.
That's why he's the transitional figure, he's got both.
Celestial-body-NOS
Supra tumulum tuum, astra nobis.
59m ago
Or August 1914; "Our boys will be home by Christmas."
gattsuru
1hr ago
This is, of course, why no one ever compared Mitt Romney or George Bush to Nazis.
popocatepetl
1hr ago
I'm confused by the timing. 2015-2020 saw the Pittsburgh synagogue, Charleston church and El Paso walmart shootings despite conservatives being in power and the anti-Trump/nazi rhetoric being significantly more unhinged than it is today.
In the current moment libs/leftists feel themselves losing harder than they ever have in living memory, even if the rhetoric was sometimes crazier in 2017.
This is it. In 2016, leftist freaking out was mostly a performative way of calling for the managers to take care of a problem, according to Victimhood culture rules. Progressives (and indeed, most everyone) saw Trump v1.0 as a passing blip who won due to Hillary Clinton being a uniquely unelectable candidate, and whose administration would be smothered by "institutional checks and balances".
Cultural leftists did not really feel like they might actually be losing grip on the country until recently. Probably the last twelve months.
pigeonburger
1hr ago
The stakes are much higher in the average ICE raid over the average police intervention. The vast majority of interactions between police officers and citizens are not a life ruining event for the citizen. An ICE agent during a raid is going to be ruining or at least seriously affecting people's life; many of which if given the chance would do a lot to avoid that happening to them. Note that the police officers whose average interventions are also high stakes, like SWAT teams, often wear face coverings as well.
aqouta
1hr ago
This really depends on what you mean by maintream left. I'll remind you the more fringe left was rebuffed by the mainstream left party on their demands for I/P. You're really often comparing what you know to be your fringe with what you think is more mainstream on the other side. Yes, the average dem is to your left on trans stuff and immigration but the violence is coming from people who are often as far or further left of them than they are of you.
pigeonburger
1hr ago
I think this would reduce the violent sentiments against them tremendously
Sadly, I don't think that's realistic. First, because no matter how nice a face you try to put on it, deporting an illegal immigrant, especially if it seems like the border is going to be significantly harder to cross next time, is potentially a life ruining event for them. They are unlikely to ever have a life as nice as what they had in the US, whoever they were sending money to abroad loses out on life changing revenue as well. Even if the agent doing it is very nice and apologizes a lot, if the illegal immigrant thinks that maybe he/she could get out of it through violence and intimidation, then that will be on the table, especially if the timeline is extended because that's nicer. Or the enforcement can also be ineffective, because grabbing them and putting them in a holding facility is Stormtrooper-ish, so letting them out with a court date gives them more opportunity to disappear again. So anyway, if we assume that in either case, the illegal will consider anything to try and avoid deportation, at least shock and awe method doesn't give them time to talk themselves into or prepare themselves for those extremities.
And also, there's the problem that ICE is also opposed to organized criminal elements, like human smugglers, that are aligned with cartels. Cartels are be perfectly willing and able to terrorize ICE agents and their families.
ThisIsSin
PC is for progressive-conservative
1hr ago
I would rather see enforcement increase in harshness by several multiples without concealing the faces of the enforcers rather than undermine that norm.
Meh, they’re protecting themselves from the unvaccinated.
Joking aside, it’s also in response to another norm, which is “technological bookkeepers can unperson you at any time now or in the future if you are ever caught enforcing laws they don’t like”.
This wasn’t as much a problem 50 years ago, for obvious reasons, but it is today. And we can write legislation so that that doesn’t happen, but we haven’t done that yet, and we want to start enforcing the law right now.
So yeah, they need the masks.
TK-421
1hr ago
Eh, I don't think it's reasonable to claim that because something's more common than winning the actual lottery that it's an accurate description of police behavior to expect during arrests (and a reminder that the 3,000 includes justified shootings completely unlike your scenario). But reasonable isn't an objective standard and based on your reply in our other discussion on policing I think your negative experience(s?) with the police have left you unable to be reasonable about the subject.
marten
1hr ago
This post resonates with me, mainly because I also don't like the aesthetics of masked officers -- especially balaclava-style masks. This is despite the fact that I largely support ICE's activities.
While I share the ideal that law enforcement should strive to be so "kind and civil" as possible, I also recognize that this is just an aspirational sentiment. Ultimately, the laws need to be enforced, and that enforcement is often going to require violence -- sometimes deadly violence. So be it.
But balaclavas really rub me the wrong way -- and in a Chesterton's fence sort of way. Maybe it's just Western cultural chauvinism on my part, but it looks like what the bad guys wear. I associate the balaclava aesthetic with Eastern despotisms and the forces of Mordor. It's arguably something that you would wear when you are ashamed of your actions.
If I had to choose, I would rather see enforcement increase in harshness by several multiples without concealing the faces of the enforcers rather than undermine that norm.
themig
1hr ago
A great many more could have been saved if a bunch of serbs had not conspired to kill him
aldomilyar
2hr ago
The Right tends to throw off more fringe interest groups for violence. Main catalysts for recent Leftwing stuff seems to be Israel/Palestine, Trans issues and Immigration issues. I don't think there's a ton of room in even the mainstream left to dissent on any of those issues.
dragonfly
2hr ago
Leaving aside all the other issues with that tweet (which I'm not accusing you of endorsing) -- which is the third "extremely violent shooting and firearms simulator with graphic imagery"? Garry's Mod? VR Chat? Is Dick suggesting he learned to use a rifle from Hearts of Iron?
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
2hr ago
There's no chance that lightning suddenly escalates after a few trial strikes and increases it's lethality by a double handful of orders of magnitude.
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
2hr ago
Ok but from sources I believe the right vs left political violence tally is like 50/50 after you take out the obvious nonsense picks.
This seems like a great opportunity for a mass collaboration.
TIRM
2hr ago
little reason to need wonder why or how someone who was against ICE might have hit people ICE was detaining instead
Supposedly the victims were inside a windowless van with ICE markings. In the back of some ICE vans are ICE officers. In the back of others are detainees. Oops, these were detainees.
dragonfly
2hr ago
I do think talk therapy, etc, have a place as a first-line intervention and everyone is too quick to jump to puberty blockers/HRT, but ultimately I agree with you: estradiol worked, the other things didn't.
I even had reason recently to stop it for a while which seemed like a good chance to test if it was still necessary or whether the other changes were enough. Sure enough, things were terrible again (long after the period where the hormone changes had largely settled down).
My position is that it's kind of like chemo: it may not solve things and dear God don't do it if you don't have the relevant issue, but if it works it's invaluable.
Ecgtheow
2hr ago
The optimal amount of a bad thing is always zero. The question is at what point do the costs of preventing the marginal bad thing outweigh the benefits of preventing it.
I would expect the marginal cost of preventing lone gunmen from doing political assassinations to be extremely high given the surveillance required.
TIRM
2hr ago
Christchurch shooter did it first.
The bullet writing seems like a lamer version of gun writing. And if I recall correctly one of the trans shooters also used obviously copycat gun writing.
The fact that this is literally Princip's line of cope is funny to me.
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