Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
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User ID: 314
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
16hr ago
Yeah, this is back to not understanding the concept. Genuine non-partisan concern for the rule of law is costly because it pisses off everyone, eventually. If you're going to be big mad about due process for deportations now, that pisses off conservatives. And if you were actually principled, then you'd have already pissed off the progressives by spending the Biden administration writing scathing critiques of their utter disregard for the law. You'd be criticizing at least some of these activist judges for overreach. You'd be carefully mindful of all the laws and evidence demanding that Garcia must be deported.
The fact that you don't recognize this, the fact that you seem totally unaware of the tribalism that infuses most political discussions, the fact that you don't have a gut-level appreciation for how progressives treat heretics and enemies are very strong signals that you've never actually insisted the law be applied to them, too.
FWIW, there are members of this community who do have such a track record, and I highly respect them for it.
If you want your partisan arguments to gain extra consideration because you claim to have a costly non-partisan virtue, it is completely reasonable for other people to ask you to prove you've paid that cost.
And when you appear to struggle to grasp what that would even entail in the first place, it is completely reasonable for people to notice that, and adjust their impressions of you accordingly.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
If your standard of evidence was so lax as to take "Just take me trust bro, I believe X and Y", why were you seemingly unwilling to accept it beforehand?
Because you wouldn't even give a single example.
If you want an example where I criticized progressives, I believe Biden's covid era eviction moratorium was a bad thing. While not on the exact level (such a thing was not ruled against yet), Biden had previously suggested he knew it was likely to get struck down and proceeded anyway.
See, this is a reasonable and good example. Thank you. Was that so hard?
Iconochasm
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1d ago
You really can't imagine how to reference such a prior belief/argument without doxing yourself?
FFS, just briefly paraphrase.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
but if I fretted over everything I wrote I'd never let anyone read anything.
Remember, your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you people cheer.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
I honestly don't think that's the relevant label. I think the guy comes off as very provincial and inexperienced. My whole point is that I suspect he's never been in a situation where being a pussy vs being brave would even come up, to an extremely unusual degree.
I'm suggesting he check his privilege, while actually bothering to explain why that's relevant. But there's no reason to continue belaboring the point.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
I very much agree, as a personal idiosyncrasy. In most cases, I just mentally replace all liberal->progressive whenever it's used by someone who isn't e.g. Glenn Greenwald.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
slippery slope of "disappear without due process illegal immigrants/terrorists
The guy wasn't "disappeared", he had multiple days in court, this whole thing is about accidnetally missing a page of paperwork that would have had no material impact on the sequence of events.
By comparison, we crossed the "murder American children by drones with no due process" threshold over a decade ago.
Relatedly, you would find much more consistency if you were checking for people being incensed about debanking.
Yeah, that would have been a decent example for anyone in this thread to bring up as an example of the non-partisan civil libertarian bonefides.
Instead of what they've actually provided.
Which is literally nothing.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
I've been arguing about politics online for seven presidential administrations. If called to task for being a partisan, I can reference my old flame wars about the war in Iraq and W-era abortion laws as evidence that I am at least historically willing to be angry at Republicans. Can you really not think of a single time you made a post or comment or argument or shower tirade in which you were upset at progressives for some violation of procedure?
Cause that seems kinda telling.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
A better analogy: You are committing tax fraud. The IRS catches you. They apply a totally legal and 100% justified garnishment of your wages, and then afterwards discover that they missed a piece of paperwork they were supposed to sign making sure you didn't have prior mandated child support obligation.... which you don't have.
I simply don't believe you are holding this position in good faith. If the sacred processes are so important to you, then go up thread at rip the NY governor a new asshole.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
He is the one arguing for ‘the ends don’t justify the means’ non-consequentialism whereas you seem to be arguing that dropping the murder rate by 99% justifies an awful lot.
I understood his argument as being upset about anything beyond the absolute bare minimum quantity of harm being done in the prevention of a greater evil, via the trite rationalist framework of "bad things are bad, and I'm free to criticize everyone else for being less perfect than my pacifistic ivory tower ideals". Maybe he's not the kind of person who doesn't want to punish criminals because of a shallow "people experiencing bad things is bad!" moral understanding... but that's certainly the impression I was getting, especially with him citing Thing of Things like it's a fucking Gospel.
And you know what? We can have that conversation. But you have to be able to justify the claims of unnecessary cruelty, and have to make at least some effort to weigh the pros and cons, and to account for cultural differences, too. And unfortunately, bro seems to be incapable of even attempting a serious effort at that. It comes off like an Eloi asking why the El Salvadoran's just don't notlet bad things happen. It's the "let them eat cake" of criminal theory.
you seem to be arguing that dropping the murder rate by 99% justifies an awful lot.
Yes. And I can support that stance under any moral framework you like, from consequentialism to virtue ethics. But the secondary part is that there doesn't actually seem to be an "awful lot" to justify. People in this thread keep going off about EL SALVADORAN TORTURE PRISON, but none of the people I've asked have offered any evidence that's it's even particularly bad as far as prisons go. Hell, they haven't offered any evidence at all. And my own brief searching seems to suggest that the prison in question is less brutal than a normal American prison, because the prisoners are kept so locked down that they can't brutalize each other. There was a multi-day meltdown over the presumption that Garcia was being tortured and probably murdered... and he just met with a Senator and seemed pretty comfortable and fine, and didn't seem to have complaints of that nature.
So... maybe some people should grow up and at least try to justify any of the horseshit they're peddling. Alternatively, I'm free to point out that they sound like spoiled children.
Iconochasm
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1d ago
OK. So, I'm going infer from this response that you've never personally experienced a threat in your life, and your entire understanding of evil/harm comes from reading other extravagantly comfortable, myopic nerds playing sterile word games. On top of that, you have the classic complete absence of second order thinking, and refuse to even notionally entertain utilitarian calculations with more than one variable. Non-utilitarian considerations are quantum physics in Klingon.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
You mean removing people to a country for which they had a legally binding order withholding removal.
That's not a "step in the paperwork" kind of mistake.
Yeah, it is. There's a process for removing that order based on obviously changed relevant facts. AIUI, it doesn't even require a judge. The basis for his withholding order was no longer valid. Ergo, it's a step in the paperwork.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
You never answered that question the other day about exactly how incredibly privileged and sheltered you are. Why do you believe that you have shared values with the murder-cult warlords who were terrorizing a nation less than a handful of years ago? Why do you think that you know better the exact line that can be drawn on exactly how rough one must be to repress the murder-cult, compared to the politician who actually accomplished that? Have you ever successfully spearheaded any kind of harm reduction effort comparable to reducing a nation's murder rate by 99%?
And once again, please explain what the purportedly inhumane conditions are. When I looked, CNN said it was "spartan rooms" and the machismo-fueled murder-cult prisoners were made to kneel while their heads were shaved, which probably didn't make them feel very good.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Will you concede that it's unacceptable to be 1/5k?
Nope. I don't find the actual error in question to be particularly meaningful. This dressing down to ignorant children who didn't do their homework sums up the state of discourse fairly well.
If you're going to say 1/5k is unacceptable, then I hope to see you advocating for burning down the entire government. The error rate for Medicaid payments seems to be something like 1 in 20. The Child Care & Development fund is bouncing between 9 and 13%. Apparently our own government can't even retire employees in a reasonably timely manner because almost 30% of the applications have errors
The IRS makes mistakes when taxing people less than 1% of the time... which is still 50 times worse than your "unacceptable" rate for "deporting people who were definitely supposed to be deported, but missing a step in the paperwork".
There's too many cites to bother linking them all, but I'm seeing false conviction rates ranging from 1-12%... including a purported 4% rate of executing innocent people that is in a paywalled National Geographic article I can only see a preview of.
Want to talk about drone strike error rates?
So, no. I'm not going to concede that a functionally irrelevant-to-outcome paperwork snafu happening in 1 in 5000 deportations is "unacceptable" in any meaningful way. That's actually wildly better than anything else I expect from our government and everyone who cares so, so, so deeply about processes apparently ought to be worshipping Tom Hooman and begging to put him in charge of other parts of the government, too.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
accuse me of hypocrisy here
I'm heavily hinting at it, while offering you every reasonable opportunity to demonstrate that the accusation is inapplicable.
Needless to say, I shant be holding my breath, and absence of evidence is very much Bayesian evidence of absence.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Can you name another time when you've been incensed over a 1-in-100,000 procedural error rate?
Can you name a government process or department with a lower error rate?
Iconochasm
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2d ago
because I find it quite doubtful that the median length of time that people have been living here illegally is 4 years or less
Why? Is there literally anything you're hanging this on aside from raw hope and vibes?
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Credibility doesn't come from nothing. The modern internet is absolutely filled with false flag shit. It's assuredly automated, even. "I'm a Trump voter, but I'm so mad at him about Current Thing that I wish I'd voted for Kamala, darn tootin" is practically an entire genre of reddit post. And this week's thread has multiple brand new accounts claiming that they've definitely been long-term principled civil libertarians.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
You can propose all sorts of scary scenarios you want where the president is required to wage nuclear war based on a court order for something seemingly trivial, but I'm not moved by them for the simple reason that such a system is vastly less scary than the one we're currently presumably operating under.
Ok, now imagine how the current situation looks to your outgroup, and remember that they're mostly real humans who are allowed to think the same sort of thing that you just did, right here.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Human smuggling seems to be the better terminology. I'll use that one to describe this instead.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Sorry, this is about the principle. Do you think the courts can generally demand the executive make specific foreign policy actions, requiring specific ends in direct contradiction to the logic in the legal decision upthread? Can you elaborate exactly what the limits of this judicial power are? Remember, we're all being DEEPLY CONCERNED about slippery slope precedents - can you show us exactly where the judges have explicitly claimed that they CANNOT order the executive to overthrow foreign governments? I mean, if they can order Trump to do this here, then there is NO LIMIT on them ordering him to do literally anything, no matter how insane and evil!
Right? That's how the arguments elsewhere in this thread have gone.
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Great. I'm sure you have a large backlog of posts making this same point at progressives, right? Are you familiar with the concept of an "isolated demand for rigor"?
Iconochasm
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2d ago
Speaking as likely the only person in this forum who has ever dug ditches alongside illegal immigrants, I would expect it to be much, much lower. If you've been here for 11 years and the best you've got is waiting outside Home Depot, you probably utterly suck.
And that's beside the point. The number of people who are estimated to have come in during the last 4 years is comparable to the total prior illegal population.
Do you think all of the previous ones dipped during the Biden administration?
People often complain when they get squirrels.
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