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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   25097 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 25, 2023

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How is burning down the South going to raise the average IQs of a particular subset of the population you didn’t mention at all but who have managed to wreck just about every place they live in at any appreciable fraction of the population and whose behavior are responsible for most of the South’s worst QOL indicators?

You can't just blame black people for your own failures as a society. Enterococcus faecalis is a gut bacteria that all healthy humans have in our digestive tract. It helps keeping our gut healthy and is even used as a probiotic is some of those probiotic yoghurts etc. you can buy at the supermarket. However sometimes it leaks from the gut and gets into the human bloodsteam. Once there it wrecks havoc on you and if left untreated, eventually kills you.

Just because E. faecalis kills you if it gets into your bloodstream does not mean it isn't a "good bacteria" to have if properly controlled. Much the same with black people, you can't blame them when your society is set up in such a way that brings out the worst in them (i.e. lets the bacteria into the bloodstream) and lets it run rampant (i.e. not treating the bloodstream infection) rather than the best in them (i.e. keeps the bacteria confined to the gut where it aids in digestion).

  • -16

your society is set up in such a way that brings out the worst in them

As opposed to...which other society of that era, exactly?

Detroit and Chicago vs Atlanta and Houston... Hmmmmmmm. There's something... I can't quite put my finger on it...

Yes, that something is the tabula rasa insanity believed by the left leaning sorts who are in power in Detroit and Chicago; nothing more, nothing less. It's like believing E. faecalis is no different from H. pylori and treating both of them in the same way.

I have to be honest bro, I preferred arrogant royalty to this nazi scientist thing.

They say that what we percieve is in the eye of the beholder. I don't see myself as either "arrogant royalty" or "nazi scientist". Those are labels you project upon me, while I and my beliefs exist independent of them.

Pray tell, what were you thinking of when you said "Detroit and Chicago vs Atlanta and Houston", Altlanta is almost half black, Detroit is almost 4/5ths black, while Chicago is less than 30%, so it can't have been that.

Oh yes, you're being thoughtful and sincere when you associate black people with both disease and shit.

As for my point, it's that it's not the dirty Southerners who need to hear your revolting advice. Black Americans in cities like Atlanta and Houston are doing just fine, while black Americans in cities like Detroit and Chicago and Baltimore suffer immensely. But oh no, it's somehow different when Northern cities mismanage the shit out of everything, that's on leftists, and nothing else. It's only half the country's fault when you dip below the mason dixon line.

Isn't that just cherry picking (or perhaps peach picking) tho? Did they do well in Houston through Hurricane Harvey? Did they do well in News Orleans through Katrina? Cities that grew with big industry are not doing that well after decades of deindustrialization while cities that have other niches (logistics, transportation or energy) do better. So do their underclass.

Perhaps it is true that it is better to be black in the South of the US, and I would wager that it has to do with a better understanding between black and white Southerners.

Perhaps the whites that could not stand living with them already went North, or never moved to the South in the first place, just like they retreated from the city of Detroit to the suburbs when the federal government started bussing their kids to black schools, in living memory.

I could see a difference between a 'racist' plantation owner who entrusts his children to a black servant in his own home and a 'racist' Midwestern who refuses to share a ZIP code with them.

I was giving examples, not passing moral judgement. Those are what came first to mind. E. faecalis was in the news recently for being involved in an outbreak which is why I remembered the name, while H. pylori is about the most quintessential gut bacteria you can get, if someone can name just one bacteria that's associated with the gut I would say it's probably H. pylori (maybe other than E. coli, but that's not gut specific).

I frequently and happily compare the behaviour of what my people are doing to the west as being like an invasive species colonisng a new landsape which has no defensive mechanisms against it. I don't do it to disparage my people, I do it because I genuinely think that the invasive species model is the best way to understand the dynamics of what's going on in the west with regards to immigration right now. Doesn't mean I think we should stop the immigration (in fact, I think the opposite).

Equally I have zero qualms calling Islam a memetic virus (which it absolutely is); I'm not trying to pass judgement, just doing my best to describe things in the most accurate way I can, regardless of the "moral" valance of my choice of comparisons and I find that calling it a memetic virus is a more accurate description of it than other phrases with the same level of lexical complexity.

If someone reads my comparisons and then claims I am associating X with Y rather than just associating a trait of X with a trait of Y then that's completely on them and not me as well as being an indictment of their own low decoupling behaviour because they are creating links from their own imagination and beliefs that I never intended.

if someone can name just one bacteria that's associated with the gut I would say it's probably H. pylori (maybe other than E. coli, but that's not gut specific).

You had an option that doesn't live in human shit, and you are familiar with an option that doesn't live in human shit, and you are even aware of E. Faecalis' relative obscurity next to H. Pylori in popular knowledge, but you chose the option that lives in human shit anyway. If you weren't trying to make a point then you fucked up.

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Man, the OP has generated some of the worst discussion here in recent memory.

I'm just going to tag this response as one of the worst offenders because you're the most blatant about it without actually being willing to speak plainly.

If you want to say "All our problems are because black people are stupid criminals," you need to say that (and then be able to defend it, because just saying that is clearly a sweeping generalization, so get your arguments properly formed rather than just taking the opportunity to vent your hatred of black people).

hill people proud ignorance and shiftless rebellion against anyone who might have gotten any of that big city 'lernin.

Is this sort of demeaning caricature where we mock the accent of our outgroup and misapply the things they believe acceptable now? Because while the response you tagged wasn't great, at least he wasn't "we wuz kangz n sheeit" posting.

It's funny that FCfromSSC saying "hey, maybe violence is justified in self defense" is enough to send every leftist into paroxysms of performative denunciation and triggered a crisis that led to the schisming of the whole community. But leftists talking about how their political enemies just need "the mao treatment" "annihilating them and their families" is just fine and only people who downvote and push back are "the worst offenders."

Leftists exterminating their victims as a class is just part of the plan, I guess. But if anyone fights back you lose your fucking mind.

It's funny that FCfromSSC saying "hey, maybe violence is justified in self defense" is enough to send every leftist into paroxysms of performative denunciation and triggered a crisis that led to the schisming of the whole community.

You don't actually quote a specific post, but most of my posts that fit your description were not a central example of "justifying violence in self-defense". They argued that Blue Tribe had collectively engaged in organized political violence and gotten away with it, and that this removed most good-faith objections to Red Tribe doing the same. There was an exchange about self-defense specifically, but I'd be surprised if that was the one you were referring to.

Given the references to the schisming, probably talking about this event and this comment, referencing this post, which was about those good-faith objections.

That said, yakultbingedrinker's comment (that were also highlighted as "evil sentiment and a precursor to atrocities", and received more emphasis) were about self-defense; Tyre_Inflator may have confused you and him.

The comment I was thinking of was linked in your first link, here, which was about self-defense and Tracing Woodgrain's comment that Kyle should have just let his attackers beat him as much as they wanted and hope they had the mercy not to kill him, rather than fighting back.
yakultbingedrinker's comment was very similar though.

@FCfromSSC this was the post of yours I meant, which was cited as justification for the schism.

I think even later a strong case can be made against escalating to deadly force. So far, 32 people have died during these protests, four for reasons other than being shot. It's impossible to get a precise count of the number of physical confrontations that have gone on, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect many more than that. Could they have killed him? Yes. Would they have killed him? From a probabilistic standpoint, I'd give it maybe 1-2% odds at most assuming he was passive/compliant.

Color me surprised.

In any case, I would still disagree that leftists generally were upset about arguments for self-defense. In the first place, it was an extremely aggressive argument in favor of self-defense, and in the second place, it wasn't just that argument, but also me arguing that if blues could justify lawless political violence, reds could and would as well. My posts in that era are not fairly summarized as "hey, maybe violence is justified in self defense". I still stand by the arguments I made, but I also lament that I failed to find a better way to make the point, and the damage that resulted.

Kyle should have just let his attackers beat him as much as they wanted and hope they had the mercy not to kill him, rather than fighting back.

That's not even close to what he said, he said Rittenhouse's life would have been better if he had not killed anyone, which was controllable on more bases than not pulling the trigger, i.e., presumably, not willingly walking into a riot by himself (which itself was a massive self-endangerment). There's a world where you can frame that as "Letting communities be besieged by rioters" or something, (although he evidently would have preferred the government step in), but he said absolutely nothing remotely resembling "you should let people beat you and hope they have the heart to be gentle."

Could they have killed him? Yes. Would they have killed him? From a probabilistic standpoint, I'd give it maybe 1-2% odds at most assuming he was passive/compliant.

He literally said Kyle should have been "passive and compliant" and let the attackers beat him, because he was replying to LotsRegret question specifying "when he was being pummeled by the people later."

Trace’s argument is similar to the pro-russia argument that if ukraine had simply rolled over and surrendered itself into russia’s power, a lot of people who did not ‘need to’ die 'probably' wouldn’t have, even if ukraine had the right to fight. Although I don’t recall you or @FCfromSSC making that argument (as opposed to other pro-russia commenters).

At no point have I ever argued that Ukraine doesn't have a right to fight. It seems to me that if it weren't for us intentionally trying to fuck around with Russia since the end of the cold war, there probably wouldn't be a fight for them to be involved in. Likewise, now that there is a fight, I do not agree that we have either an interest or a responsibility to involve ourselves in any way, and would be wiser not to. None of this has anything to do with Ukraine's rights or its interests. They can surrender tomorrow or fight till they either conquer Moscow or depopulate their country entirely. I don't care.

None of this has much bearing on what should be done when one is attacked. In Rittenhouse's case, self-defense was practical and an extremely good idea. There are situations where that is not the case, and it is better to give ground, make concessions, accept loses, etc. Defense is a means to an end, not a terminal goal in its own right.

Possibly because they're not against Ukraine defending itself. But if you want to point out inconsistencies, it's weird how you haven't brought up Trace making that argument re: Russia.

What do you mean? I don't have a database of everyone's arguments, I just have knowledge of both side's common arguments + sporadic recollections of commenter-specific ones.

I am pointing out an inconsistency in a hypothetical left-wing commenter who supports trace's argument here but denies it in ukraine's case just as much as his right-wing counterpart who does the opposite.

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Ah, thanks. Sorry for the confusion

Thanks for the link. I was having a hard time googling it. (It seems like a lot of twitter and reddit posts are no longer searchable?)

Tracing Woodgrain's comment that Kyle should have just let his attackers beat him as much as they wanted and hope they had the mercy not to kill him, rather than fighting back.

Man, it's not even that long ago, and I already forgot how far even the most respectable went back then...

I know this is not what this comment was about, but why was a 1-2% odds of Kyle getting killed assigned in this case?

Hypothetically speaking, if Kyle had not shown up with a rifle, perhaps he would have been fine, but what if I recall correctly happened was that one crazy guy, who kept antagonizing Kyle's crew all evening prior to the dramatic conclusion, ran after him and attacked him from behind, while a second character actually shot at Kyle.

While perhaps Kyle would have been fine if he hadn't started shooting, the combination of getting melee-attacked and a second character closing in on him with a gun does not give me a 98% confidence in his survival.

People routinely die from their head hitting the ground after getting punched, multiple grown men (convicted felons) ganging up on one person with no accountability in sight doesn't forebode well.

At least Kyle made a good example pour encourager les autres. When there's a riot and ACAB, sometimes punching nazis is not enough, especially if the nazis in question are full-grown teenagers with more martial instinct than half a dozen antifas combined.

A second (still uncaught and unknown!) character shot toward Rittenhouse before Rittenhouse raised his gun, and then latter Grosskruetz drew an illegally-concealed handgun and prepared to fire at Rittenhouse.

Charitably, Trace may have been examining things less in the red team exercise sense of what would have happened had he gone into the same environment and done all the same things except had the gone, and more making measures in a more frequentist analysis of what the typical counterprotester/counterrioter encountered. If you assumed only 32 deaths, a 1% fatality rate requires only 3200 confrontations.

Of course, then you dive into the actual facts on the ground, and the definition of 'confrontation' becomes very important. How many people were in a vocal disagreement that maybe involved a thrown punch? Tons. How many ended up completely alone and surrounded by a violent mob, including many who were illegally carrying concealed firearms?

And then we're back to conceding the public commons to whoever could get away with bringing the violent mob there.

It's just bizarre all around.

Both your first and your second sentence are bad faith paraphrasings of what both respective parties said, and disingenuous representations of what the reactions were.

  • -10

My second sentence is literal quotes from ImmanuelCanNot in this very thread.

leftists talking about how their political enemies just need "the mao treatment" "annihilating them and their families"

Is not a literal quote of:

A genocide would have been overkill. The top southern 1%-2% being subject to the mao landlord treatment and their holdings redistributed would have led the country to a much better place long term.

I do not agree with ImmanuelCanNot's sentiments, and you can certainly object to them. But there is a difference between talking about how it would have been good to do something to "The top southern 1%-2%" in 1865 and "leftists talking about their political enemies." Of course if you would like to claim that what ImmanuelCanNot actually meant was "the left's political enemies today," you can do that, but you will have to substantiate it rather than just mindreading or projecting. Given that your interpretation of FCfromSSC's accelerationist post is an even more egregious misrepresentation, I suggest you invest some effort before making such an attempt.

I am curious how much effort annihilating them and their families would actually have been. It couldn't have been more then one or two thousand. You could even just exile them to south America or Cuba if you were feeling particularly merciful.

What is wrong with you?! I just read that whole conversation you had with Gattsuru and you seem completely miserable about the way you engage people, but you never change it!

Reading comprehension test:

Who is "them"?

(a) Leftists' political enemies. (b) The top 1%-2% of Southern landowners during the Civil War.

I’m going to echo the chorus of ‘but the OP started it’- yes, this was a bad comment, but we should be evenhanded- the post was also bad.

@hydroacetylene @IGI-111 @winedark

The OP's post is bad (11 reports so far, 1 AAQC) but I'm leaving it to the other mods to decide whether it breaks the rules. I don't think it does, because clearly stating "Our historical problems are for this reason" - even if "this reason" is "Da Joos" or "importing Africans to America" or "White Southerners" and why you think that - is allowed. You are allowed to criticize your outgroup, but it requires laying out a thesis, which can be debated (as is happening here).

"Black people are the worst" is just booing without offering much to debate.

OP's post is similar in quality to other top level posts here, save for whose sacred cows it brings to the slaughter.

And top level posts get modded for antagonism and boo outgroup regularly.

This post is of the same caliber as OP. Neither are particularly unusual in terms of quality, but "why are progressives stupid and terrible?" gets a round of applause while "why are southern conservatives so stupid and terrible?" makes a lot of users feel personally attacked.

I agree that they're both bad, but there's a bit of a difference between "It's actually insane to me that much of the the <X> in America thinks <Y>" and "Every degenerate tendency in US Con. politics has originated directly from <X>". And I say that as someone who thinks the Reconstruction got backstabbed, even if the real version of that is more complicated than the colloquial one.

If we're going to allow or disallow posting "this group is the root of all evil and should be or have been exterminated" we should probably be even handed about it.

The OP is literally "it didn't happen but it should have" for the ACW.

I mean, this post is literally about how white southerners are the root of all America's problems.

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