site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   5472 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 24, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

What Car Should I Buy?

I'm beginning the process of shopping for a new car. I will beat this decision to death, I expect it will be several months until I actually make a purchase, including many test drives of different models and digging deep into Consumer Reports and Car and Driver's archives. Figured I'd throw the question out to theMotte and see if there are any models I'm not thinking of or should give more consideration to. As I write so much word vomit, I realize this is also an exercise for me in writing out what I'm looking for.

Strictly speaking, I don't need to buy a car and if I don't end up finding one I like, I won't buy one. I'm in kind of a unique situation for a variety of reasons, I have a work vehicle (crew cab 4wd pickup) that is low mileage and that I will continue to use to regardless of any other purchase; I also maintain my dad's car collection with him, so I have no desire for a crazy sports car because if I want to drive a convertible that gets to 60 in 4 seconds I can just head over to his house and borrow it. But I set this date on my calendar a couple years back, and I'm seeing evidence of it all around me, it seems like now might be the time to pull the trigger on a new car. As I stated in a previous post, my early teen years the industry was just emerging from a nadir for the American car market, things have gotten better pretty much every year since. But lately the tech in cars is becomingly increasingly baroque, and the features are becoming harder to avoid or turn off, I'm worried that if I wait another year or two until I need a car I might be forced to endure features I don't want and unable to find a car that has what I do want. Increasing government targets on fuel economy etc are also a threat. My theory being that I'd rather buy a new or low mileage car now and not have to worry about this again until I'm 40 or so (pending accidents or whatnot).

For starters, located in the USA, so sadly no GR Yaris' or Renault Meganes around. Northeast, so AWD has always been a preference of mine, but FWD will work, RWD is probably a no go but I could be persuaded for the right car since I still have the 4x4 or my wife's car for bad storms. Looking for a four door, but it doesn't need an adult sized big back seat. My wife has and will continue to have a bigger car for comfortably transporting multiple adults, so this one just needs to be theoretically capable of doing so more than actually needing to regularly. But with carseats, I probably don't want to bother trying a 2+2. Cargo space isn't a huge concern, but I do like hatchbacks. I want to avoid SUVs, I just don't like driving them as much, really looking for a sedan or small hatchback (though I am kinda pondering the Kona N as factually more hot hatch than SUV). I want something reasonably quick with good driving dynamics, but I don't need a ton of horsepower (I'm basically looking at stuff between 200-300) and I'm unlikely to take it to a track day beyond fooling around at a local autocross on street tires. I could talk myself into a manual, but I'm fine with a conventional auto, CVT I'm iffy on. I'm probably leaning gas engine, but I feel like I should cross-shop a few EVs because they are the new hot thing.

I'm looking mainly at the Asian carmakers. Toyota, Honda, and Subaru all seem to make vehicles that simply run better longer and are much easier/cheaper to fix than the German carmakers; I'd be open to an American car but there aren't many out there that really appeal to me right now. I've had BMWs, Audis, and MBs for years now; it's not so much that they break down all the time, though I am under the impression that they do, it's that when they break down I need to special order the fan belt from the single nunnery in the Alps that makes them for thousands, while when Japanese or American cars break down I can choose between $50 in stock at the dealer or $35 at the local Autozone. I'm tired of it, I'll probably look at a few Audis and BMWs just to cross shop but idk that I'd pull the trigger on one. I'm open to buying a used car, hell I buy used shoes, but I like the idea of having something under warranty for at least a few years. Also the used car market for most of the cars I'm looking at is so out of whack, I see two year old and 30k miles on Subarus that are less than $2k off what I could buy a brand new one for at the dealer. I'm not in a hurry, so needing to order one from the factory and wait a couple months is nbd to me. Budget is realistically somewhere between $30-50k; I could afford more but I don't see a lot of cars that make me want to reach out of that range, and I want a car cheap enough that I don't worry about it when I use it, which I don't think I could do with a $60k+ car.

Prior cars I've daily'd: 1991 Ford Bronco, 1996 Ford Explorer XLT V8, 2000 Subaru Outback Wagon XT Manual, 2000 BMW 323ci Manual, 2004 Audi A6 Quattro 2.7t, 2003 Mercedes-Benz C230 Wagon, 2005 Audi A4 3.0t Quattro Cabrio, 2005 Toyota Camry. I currently drive a 2008 Chevrolet Avalanche LTZ most days, it just crossed 60k miles so I expect to have it for the foreseeable future and honestly I expect to have it until it is illegal to drive it in the city. My wife drives a Lexus RX, which we will trade in the near future on a new Subaru Outback.

Current Contenders:

Acura Integra. Pros: Small, hatchback, Honda guts, great MPG, luxury badge, drives well, strong CPO warranty and availability near me. Cons: CVT unless you go with an up-charge package, weakest engine of the cars I'm looking at, expensive for what is ultimately a civic in a sport coat, FWD.

Subaru WRX. Pros: Fun to drive, manual, great AWD, resale price, Subaru around me is kind of the perfect stealth luxury brand among PMC types, I got into a horrible accident in my prior subaru and survived so I have good vibes towards it. Cons: Not designed for comfort, boy racer looks are a little heavy handed, need to get the manual because the CVT is right out for this car I'd think.

Hyundai Elantra N. Pros: Performance monster for the price, hilariously long powertrain warranty, customizable settings galore, polarizing looks but honestly I love them when I see them. Cons: Hyundai badge carries no weight, reliability may not be there so even with the warranty I don't actually get to drive it, FWD.

Mazda3 Turbo Hatch AWD. Pros: Hatchback, AWD, good speed, gorgeous design, actual automatic gearbox offered. Cons: Small.

I'm kicking around other ideas from trying to find a GR Corolla to a Toyota Crown to going Tesla 3 or Ford Mach E, and like I said I'll cross shop things like BMW or Audi but may not go for that. Leaving aside budget, I'd probably get something like a Tesla S or high end 3, higher end Mach E, or a Rivian or GMC Hummer EV, just because I think they're the coolest fucking things on the road right now.

What are your thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should consider? Any experiences that you'd like to share with some of the cars I've listed?

Since you're looking at Acura, you should check out the Lexus IS 300 AWD or the IS 350 AWD. I drove the IS 350 AWD a couple months ago and it was fun to drive, the modern safety features weren't overly annoying and the guy told me you can turn many of them off. My memory is it gets ~25mpg. The IS has either the 8 speed automatic or the six speed automatic Toyota has used for a while. It has a decent amount of space without being a large sedan and I think it meets all of your requirements. If I was buying a sedan, it would probably be this one. I've owned BMWs in the past and they're reliable but if anything goes wrong it's going to be $1000+.

Also, since you're already looking at the Hyundai, you should check out the Genesis G70. A friend has either that one or the G60 and he's quite the fan.

Both on my cross shopping list, along with the ES and the LS (unlikely, but just for funsies)! Thanks for the cosign on the IS. Honestly, I've had such good experiences with Lexus products that friends and family have owned, that the IS and ES would be the top on my list if I didn't hate the cowcatcher grill they have on the new ones so much. Even if they were merely boring, I'd stomach it, but the weird hourglass things looks like the car the Riddler would drive in an old Batman comic.

I bought a used V8 GX 460 about five years ago and I still own it and still love it. I will probably drive it until it dies which can easily be over 300,000 miles. Whenever I need to tow something, it performs wonderfully and is a great road-trip vehicle. A friend of mine owns a V8 LX480 which is still going strong with 340,000 miles on it. I love Toyotas despite their ~decade long obsession with ugly noses, the aardvark noses and the hourglass noses; besides, I think the hourglass grill styling looks better on the sedans than the SUVs.

I say get a bright green one and own the Riddler theme!

I bought a used V8 GX 460 about five years ago and I still own it and still love it. I will probably drive it until it dies which can easily be over 300,000 miles.

That's a sweet ride. Land Cruisers and LX's are the most common scam cars on craigslist around here these days, because everyone (including me) wants one.

Every time I see a car-related discussion I am reminded how different the US market is from the Euro one. Anyway, I was going to recommend something in the Impreza-Outback-Forester range, but it looks like your wife is already getting one.

I wouldn't wright off the Legacy either if sedans are in the mix. Its a shame they don't offer the MT anymore, but you can still spec one with a turbo, and it'll be more refined than an Impreza. I personal liked the old poorly placed inter-cooler with the functioning hood scoop, but the newer ones have less of a boy racer aesthetic. OP, let us know if you test drive one, I'm interested to know how responsive the newer CVTs are. As far as CVT reliability goes, I would change the transmission oil wayyy more frequently than called for in the US maintenance manual. Like every 25k miles or so.

OP, let us know if you test drive one, I'm interested to know how responsive the newer CVTs are.

Will do. Probably get in to test drive the Acura and WRX CVTs in the near future, those dealerships are real close and they have those in stock.

That was my own dislike of sedans showing through. Kia K5 and Stinger are probably the only modern ones that I like. The rest look like they are chosen by people that use a spreadsheet to compare the total cost of ownership for 20 years when buying their next car.

A new car? Why?

If, in two years, you're worried about Google listening to your radio stations, buy a 2023 car. Or a 2015, or...I won't suggest going back as far as 1999, but the point is that the well-designed ones won't disappear. They'll just have more mileage plus a corresponding discount.

Disclaimer: I drive an '07 Corolla. Decidedly not GR. So perhaps I have different tastes a higher tolerance for looking poor.

There is very little value in buying a late model used Subaru or Toyota near me. Buying a WRX with 30k miles barely drops $2k off the MSRP around here. At that point, it does make sense to buy one fresh off the lot with warranties, that you know hasn't been abused, etc.

So perhaps I have different tastes [or] a higher tolerance for looking poor.

Probably, yeah. I'm at a point in my career where it isn't cute to be hassled by "my car is in the shop;" and I'm in that in-between point where I can't put a client/partner in an '05 Beige Camry with cloth seats. Five years ago I was young and poor enough that it would come across earnest, insh'Allah ten years from now I'll be rich enough that it will merely be eccentric; today I need to meet social standards and seem like I have my shit together enough to make a regular car payment. Not quite to the degree where I'm going to get a realtor car (leased Range Rover or BMW SUV being the classics, ewww), but it would help to show up in something late model and reasonably comfortable sometimes.

I recently bought a Mazda3 hatchback. I like it, but the safety features are annoying and I am going to see if I can turn them off. The seatbelt chime will immediately go off if you don't have your seatbelt on before you turn anything on, even just the electronics so you can open the windows or turn on the A/C and even if the car is in park. The lane assist and automatic braking occasionally activate when they shouldn't, which is dangerous. Also, the visibility isn't great. Pedestrians are sometimes hidden behind the A pillar. Otherwise, it's a good car. It's a smooth ride and I don't find it too small despite being very tall. I also like the design of the electronic controls.

1999 Suzuki Grand Vitara

I drive a Buick and I really like it. Every time I see the last-gen Buick Regals I drool a little bit. There's a station wagon version that looks simply awesome to me.

Personally I've just been enjoying all the cars I couldn't afford in the oughties at sub $10k pricing -- this was peak car IMO; the computerized EMS problem was solved, manual transmissions still widely available, 2-300 hp easily available and plenty of creature comforts with no widescreen TVs on the dash.

But I take your point that this may be the last time you can buy something new that isn't too cucked -- indeed you may almost be too late. I think Mazda is the only manufacturer with a (stubborn) corporate policy around physical controls. (as opposed to touchscreen, or that awful BMW dial that controls the thing that should be a touchscreen but isn't)

I guess "Mazda3 only bigger" is a Mazda6, but then you don't get the hatchiness; interior seems... OK? At least there are real gauges: https://imgcdn.zigwheels.ae/large/gallery/interior/25/250/mazda-6-sedan-dashboard-view-246339.jpg Discontinued because of course it is, but you could pick up a like-new GT one (250hp) pretty easily I'd think.

Honestly the WRX might be your only choice -- unlikely that you will be able to get a manual transmission for love or money within a few years, so why not?

I agreed with you on the former for the last ten years, but I'm at a point in my life where I am A) Tired of stuff developing mysterious problems that take too long to figure out and B) Lack the combination of time and skill to do it myself, plus C) if I want to borrow my dad's C5 vette I can just go do that, I don't need to own that car. I'm looking for a reliable pleasant daily driver, easy to park, that gives me just enough engagement to enjoy taking the scenic route every now and again.

I put this date on my calendar two years ago when I realized I had the money to buy a new car but didn't need to, largely on the theory that it was going to get harder and harder to fix a car from 2005-2008, but if I buy a car today from a reliable brand I can hope to drive it until 2030 at least, at which point we'll likely be in a very different place in terms of car culture.

Yeah, I feel you -- my wife is the same way, and we've been shopping for/driving newish things lately. It's just hard to be impressed with anything in the last ~5 years, I feel like we are in a transitional period between car-cars and techmobiles -- and the techmobiles aren't quite there yet, while the attempts to move in that direction have ruined the carness of current models. Also the standards of interiors in high-end shit seem to have gone downhill somehow? Recent model BMWs just don't feel that nice inside, for instance -- even though the driving experience continues to advance.

I don't know what to suggest other than the WRX TBH -- my wife is more in the 'large crossover that won't absolutely destroy you on gas' zone, so we will probably get some sort of plug-in -- but 'mid-size sedan' is just dying.

How about a Caddy?

The ougties versions of these (in AWD) are something that I haven't touched on yet in my odd-yssey, but am actively monitoring -- a new one should be pretty nice if you can afford it. (and handle the grandpa jokes)

You exactly hit on the transition period.

Also the standards of interiors in high-end shit seem to have gone downhill somehow?

The older ones feel more special. The difference and care was obvious in my e46 or even the old C class wagon. The control felt nice in your hand. When I've sat in modern luxury cars they feel plasticky, with a big-ass screen to make up for it. One of the reasons I'm not that interested in any of the luxury brands, just don't want to pay for something that isn't special.

Good call, I should probably give the Caddy a shot. I get all the old man jokes anyway.

The Ford Maverick also sounds like what you're looking for, albeit as a hybrid pickup truck.

100% what I would buy if the Avalanche died, they're such a great vehicle and as someone pointed out to me the other day, Ford hasn't even advertised the damn thing, they just sell out all on their own! I'm no expert on car logistics, but it's amazing to me that Ford can't manage to churn out more of those. Although I'm feeling like I should have bolded and underlined "really looking for a sedan or small hatchback" and "good driving dynamics."

I don't own a ford maverick(although it will definitely be my next truck- I drive a used compact truck from a Japanese brand), but my dad does, and it drives like a hatchback. This is also the report of everyone I know who owns one.

It's not a hatchback, but I suspect a hatchback version of a maverick is coming in the next few years.

Isn't the hatchback Maverick just the Escape? Or is there a significant stance difference? Personally I'm curious to see if they bring out a high hp street-truck Maverick ST

Personally I'm curious to see if they bring out a high hp street-truck Maverick ST

I doubt it, partly because it's technically difficult but also because the problem the maverick exists to solve(fuel efficiency standards making it hard to create a pickup of a size with significant unmet demand) doesn't apply to high horsepower trucks.

I don't need a ton of horsepower (I'm basically looking at stuff between 200-300)

That sounds like a contradiction.

I could talk myself into a manual, but I'm fine with a conventional auto, CVT I'm iffy on.

I've seen people on 4chan's /o/ board say several times that, though CVTs often have reliability problems when they're attached to too-powerful engines (such as in Nissan cars), this is not a problem with the 76-horsepower Mitsubishi Mirage.

Worth noting for those who don't know that CVT and ECVT are totally different things. A CVT on a non hybrid car is a mechanical variable ratio pulley system, and these have had reliability issues of the type you mentioned. Hybrid vehicles instead use a system of dual electric motor generators, which, by varying the power or load, can operate as a planetary gear with variable ratio.

It's quite a clever technology, actually - having a single planetary gear with the motor generators allows you to delete multiple other planetary gears, the reverse gear, the starter, the alternator, and the torque converter.

Not so much concerned with CVT reliability as driving dynamics. I think it's theoretically possible to have a CVT that produces a strong driving experience, but all the ones I've actually driven have been sludgy, kinda boring, slow to react. I'd probably prefer a well executed dual clutch automatic to a manual.

If you value reliability over performance then you should probably get a Honda or Toyota. If you care about having an electric vehicle they make plug in versions of many of their cars which I think gives you the best of both worlds in that you can have an ev for most regular driving but can still take road trips easily.

I currently drive an older rav4 hybrid, if I were getting a new vehicle I would likely buy the plug in version of the current year model.

If cost were a bigger concern I would just get a plug in Prius (or non plug in Prius). I had a 2004 prius for years while in grad school with over 300k miles on it (I don’t know how many miles were actually on it because the odometer quit working at 299,999). Minimal maintenance, and only real downside is if you get a bad battery pack.

Also you should do some research on hybrid vehicles post lithium switch over. Older nicad Toyota hybrid battery packs could be reconditioned fairly easily (and cheaply). I doubt this is true on newer hybrids/plug in hybrids with lithium battery packs, which might impact the calculus a bit.

Toyota, in my experience, is the king of reliability. The Long-Term Quality Index agrees with me. Honda is second; still very reliable WRT engine and powertrain but some of the craftsmanship on some of the components is not exactly bulletproof. Things like the AC system and door locks are only average in reliability. Door locks outright suck on like late 2000s Hondas.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats