The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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Not infrequently someone here will ask for advice on improving their social skills, and I guess this week it's my turn.
My question: can anyone offer testimonials of having significantly altered their personality through conscious effort? I've become increasingly skeptical that certain kinds of change are possible.
I am 30, socially retarded, and have tried much of the usual advice, including
joining hobby groups (sports, dance, music, improv, rationalists, board games) - never made any lasting friends
improving fitness / grooming / appearance - this is in progress and I expect I'll continue to work on this
talking to strangers - doesn't go well (nor particularly poorly, just awkwardly)
My concern is that hanging out with people who are not very close friends is 1) difficult, in that I suck at establishing rapport, thinking of things to say, responding with appropriate emotion, 2) extremely tiring, and therefore 3) just unpleasant. This is true even if the people are super nerdy and share the same interests as me. One has to keep track of the words, body language, and emotional states of both oneself and one's interlocutor, and that is too much for my brain to handle. Literally there will be moments when I realize I should probably stop staring at the floor and make some normal brief eye contact, and in the second it takes me to adjust, I will lose track of the other person's sentence, and therefore be unable to respond appropriately.
Roughly from 2016 to 2019, I aggressively (by my standards) sought out chances to practice socializing and attended more meetups / hobby groups than I wanted to. Looking back, I don't think my social skills improved much, and socializing didn't ever get more fun or bearable. I did, however, get better at noticing the social skills I lack. Some things I've learned are
the chasm between how normal extroverts experience life and how I do is even wider than I thought
the facility and graceful precision with which sociable people can smooth over a bad joke, off-color statement, or awkward silence is incredible
the returns to social skills in every aspect of life - friends, dating, career, learning, general wellbeing - are much greater than I realized
I am now trying to decide whether I should redouble my efforts in this area (which is tiring and demoralizing) or essentially give up, and just live my life in the way that is natural to me: avoid talking to people whenever possible, one or two close friends excepted, never leave home except for work and necessary errands, and accept that I'll miss out on the benefits of human connection.
Other facts about me:
My coworkers are brilliant, most clearly smarter than me. In general this makes small talk more difficult since the bar for a comment being passably interesting is higher.
I am temperamentally boring and don't really enjoy most activities people find fun, especially if they involve leaving the house. Books and movies are good enough for me.
I started taking Vyvanse recently, which probably doesn't help here. But my social problems predate Vyvanse.
I have gone from an extremely negative person to a moderately positive one within 2 years. My friends have noticed and commented. I set out to try and 'fix' my depression, not change my personality per se. I relate to your experiences a lot. I wouldn't consider myself a socialite nowadays, but things are much better. I did not realize my social awkwardness was in part due to my depression / mild anxiety.
I have two pieces of advice to offer; meditation and to care less for what others think of you.
Meditation isn't a tool but it has the helpful side effect of robbing your thoughts of their power over you. When you have thoughts of tracking body language, emotional stress, eye contact, you can notice these things as thoughts appearing that do not hold any weight. You can let go of them and just be.
When the thoughts and *feelings *of anxiety have less power over you, you'll be paying attention to what is being said, not where your hands are etc. If you are unfamiliar with meditation it is really difficult to describe the difference in experience. I guess you'll have to trust a stranger on the internet here (hopefully).
I highly, highly recommend the Waking Up app. Treat it as seriously as religion, practice daily and make your way through the theory section.
Additionally here's a fun blog on caring less about what people think (and being less stuck in your own head). The analogy of the mammoth always stuck with me.
https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/06/taming-mammoth-let-peoples-opinions-run-life.html
Best of luck.
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As a child, I was rather reclusive. I always preferred books to human interaction, and being dragged out to be paraded before my relatives was something I very much dreaded and avoided.
I distinctly remember that around the age of 10, I felt a whimsical urge to be talkative and nice to an aunt of mine for a change. And I was so overwhelmed with positive feedback when she was happily taken a back by my behavior that it flipped some kind of switch in me, like "hey, isn't being praised nice? Maybe I should interact with people more often!". And that's what I did.
I also approached med school as an opportunity to start over with a blank slate, I faked being more outgoing than I actually am, and while that wore off eventually, I was quite well liked by the majority of my classmates and colleagues. So at least I had people around who'd invite me to places and stop me from being a complete homebody, even when I didn't initiate anything myself.
(I don't know how much weight to put on childhood memories, they can be quite unreliable. That being said, this is a pretty vivid one, that I noted as important even at the time. So my take away is that you should try to fake it till you code switch like a glove and it comes naturally.)
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Yes, even in my final year of undergrad at the age of 21 I was far less conscientous and noticeably more awkward than I am now. The first was solved by working a bunch of kitchen and manual labour jobs where I got very good at not being late for things. I think functioning on 4 hours sleep is a trainable skill. I still mess up my focus sometimes by drinking or gaming (the latter has effects even when you're not playing), but in general I can go to a library and study for 4 hours without any deadline to motivate me.
The second I can partly attribute to drugs like MDMA and LSD (but the afterglow wears off eventually), partly picking the low hanging fruit of just meeting more people, and partly as a result of me no longer treating social situations as tests I have to pass or fail but opportunities to meet someone I really get along with. The latter is important as I still think I'd be just as awkward today in a room full of people I don't have anything in common with, but I have been pleasantly surprised at the results of no longer being afraid to tell jokes that are funny rather than pleasing or of giving my real opinions to people (with some sugar-coating or self-censorship depending on what I know about them of course). There are a lot more people I can easily get along with than I thought, I was just not doing a good enough job of going out on a limb and raising a flag for them to spot me. There is a risk with being genuine like this, not everyone will like you, but even the most socially savvy people I know have a few enemies.
My personal experience would strongly disagree ;)
During my internship, I had multiple stretches of less than 6 hours of sleep, and I never got any better at handling it. That's a big negative for a doctor, the very best can function acceptably even in utter sleep deprivation.
That's acceptable and not optimal, because countless studies show that doctors and surgeons fuck up orders of magnitude more when they're sleep deprived. Yet the machismo in the profession persists..
I won't disagree, but that's far more complex work than I've ever had to do.
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kinda tangential: A "personality" simply refers to tendencies in way a person acts. Trivially, you do choose the way you act - so you can 'change your personality' by acting differently. Regularities of a personality emerge as much from personal idiosyncrasies and genetic factors as they do the situation you're in, and the way you relate to the specific other people you interact with. As a weird but local example - a lot of motte regulars post on rdrama, sometimes with the same usernames - and their motte "personalities" are, just facially, absurdly different from their rdrama "personalities". This is because they use themotte for political and intellectual discourse, and rdrama for humor/mocking/exploring weird people and interactions.
Imo, the best way to make strong 'friendships', and indeed the best kind of friendship, is to undertake maybe somewhat serious, complicated, difficult, long-term - projects, shared activities, etc with specific people. Maybe it's a hobby, whether it's D&D or kayaking, maybe a lot of it is just 'discussing something you're both interested in', there are almost infinite options - but at a non-surface level, and in a way you both benefit from somehow. This also saves you from the 'im bad at small-talk' problem - if the other person/people are getting something else out of it with you, chitchat isn't bearing all the load, and you can chitchat about the activity at hand, which, due to being somewhat involved, should provide plenty of material. If we imagine the 'evolutionary origins' of friendship, it's less "people you do small talk with" and more "material alliances with competent and trustworthy people who live near you". e: reading Five's comment, his suggestions are great, for that reason.
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Do you feel anymore confident when drunk or on benzos? I tend to be socially anxious with people I meet, but if I’m drunk or using benzos, I feel much more confident and can actually enjoy the conversation. That’s obviously not a solution, but may give you a sign on what you need to work on. It tells me that I have the ability to be social, it’s just a lack of confidence or calmness that disallows me from doing so.
It’s also simply difficult for more introverted, introspective, or “thinking” type people to make friends. We are quite in our own heads and it’s difficult to be present in social situations.
The people that I’ve become closest friends with tend to be those who are the opposite of me. It’s almost like they can’t “feel” my awkwardness and just sort of plow ahead with the conversation. We admire each for different things; I admire them for their social ability, they admire me for my intellect and organization (organizing trips, meals, golf, etc).
But yeah, there are few people in my life I’m totally comfortable with. It does suck, not gonna lie, especially when I think about how much better my social life and career would be if I were a “normie.” I guess my advice would be, do the things you enjoy even if it’s awkward. I personally love golf, softball, and musical theater, so I join teams or take classes. Even if I’m not making lifelong friends, I’m still doing an activity that I enjoy, and I take satisfaction from that.
Getting a full nights sleep and exercise also helps my mood.
If by recreationally you mean once every 3-4 weeks, then yes. In the past, I’ve taken them for particularly bad hangovers, but found the rebound anxiety the day after to just not be worth it. I’ll also take a very small dose if I’m going to a particularly stressful social event or if I’m experiencing bad anxiety while trying to fall asleep. But generally I space them out enough that I don’t feel it’s a problem.
That's safe enough, but still, keep an eye out for escalation in dose and frequency!
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Not really imo. "more introverted" vacuously means difficult to make friends - "thinking/introspective" types may prefer the company of similarly intelligent / interested-in-complex-discussion people to others, but they don't necessarily have 'trouble being present in social situations'. I think there are reasons there's something of a correlation, but a majority of more intelligent, or more introspective, or "thinking" types are normal or better socially.
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Let's break this down into a couple of components: Can circumstances significantly alter one's personality? And can one change one's circumstances through conscious effort? Put that way the answer is obviously yes to both. Circumstances are changing our personality all the time, and we can change our circumstances through conscious effort.
The way you have phrased it makes it seem as though one thinks really really hard about it and changes one's personality through sheer force of will. I don't have any experience with that, though others might.
On the other hand, I can attest to significant parts of my personality changing over time in response to circumstances, and to my ability to change my circumstances by conscious decision making. The guy attending the party typically acts differently than the guy throwing it, but all you need to do to become the guy throwing the party is to throw a party. Throw enough parties and you become that guy on a deeper level, a more permanent basis. Think of how people's professions and avocations become imprinted on their personality. The Marine Drill Sergeant, the kindergarten teacher, the mother, the surfer, the factory floor foreman, they weren't born with these personalities they were molded into them by assuming the role every day.
Think of it as the difference between buying a bag of chips and saying you won't eat them, versus choosing not to buy a bag of chips to begin with. One is a much easier use of will than the other.
So what circumstances can you create in your life to force sociality? To change how you interact with people? I have a couple random suggestions:
-- Are you American? If so, this is probably the middle of primary season in an off-off-year election in your state. This is a boring year around me: no governor, no legislative elections, no presidential election, just some local, school board, and county level stuff. This means that every election comes down to ground game, voter contact, and that no one gives a shit so they are desperate for interested volunteers and will take anyone. These groups are starved for volunteers, find someone you vaguely agree with* who is running for local office and get in touch with them and offer to work with them. Offer to knock on doors and speak to constituents about the candidate. For the most part even if you do a hilariously shitty job, the skin-in-the-game commitment of knocking on doors will have 75% of the value anyway for the candidate. And within a few days you will have your vibe down, your game down; you'll knock on the door and know exactly what to say when they open it.
-- Seek out a leadership/mentoring role. This can be in a work setting or in an avocational setting. I'm guessing here, but it sounds like you work in a technical white collar field in a junior role, you are talented but have no direct reports, no one is underneath you in the flow chart. This has accustomed you to a junior role, taking orders rather than giving them. You need to become accustomed to command. Volunteer to mentor new employees. Teach a class in something you know at a local community college or high school. Volunteer with the Boy Scouts or another youth org. Purely formal power, power with no meaning at all, will cause people (especially younger or dumber people) to automatically give you command, give you credibility and status, just find a way to get that title and you will start to learn how to use that power. When we think of the proverbial lost masculinity of our ancestors, a lot of it was wrapped up in the Great Chain of Being, even the serfs at the bottom of the pyramid ruled over their children and their animals. Right now you aren't used to giving orders, so it is unnatural, put yourself in circumstances where it is natural and you'll see a lot of social skills blossom.
-- Go to church. Piety is the single easiest valuable trait to fake your way through, where every other hobby has some buy in, churchgoers more or less have to be nice to you. Doesn't matter what church, just do it. Worst case ontario, Pascal's gamble right?
*Yeah yeah, all you extra special bois can chime in that there is no candidate who matches your views. I used to sympathize with this view, until I realized how much of it serves to substitute fantasy for action. If you wait until a movement appears that enacts your exact worldview, you'll never do anything, but the bright side is you'll never have to do anything.
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I have no good advice for getting to where you want, since I'm on the same journey. I would make a point about beginning or not though.
I guess what I'd ask you is to seriously - seriously - consider how tolerable you find your current life. Is this desire to improve just because you think it's something you should do or you legitimately feel some social deficit?
Cause, having been here, it was easy to write off improvement because I was "naturally" introverted (not really true: I was more extroverted when I was younger before certain events caused anxiety that made social interaction legitimately painful).
If you're anything like most people and do seriously miss those benefits indulging this line of thinking will do nothing but cost you more time. If you're prone to FOMO or the fact that you're aging past the acceptability of being a hermit/weirdo then it'll make the psychological burden you have to carry and the hill you have to climb even larger.
The desire for the benefits will never go away and you risk sinking into some purgatory or trying to redo all of this...except at 35.
I feel you. An annoying thing about the West is the icebreakers like "what makes you special" (which would seem dangerously narcissistic back home) or "what are your hobbies". I don't really consider "reading" (my main activity) a hobby which makes things more awkward for me.
It happened just yesterday at a work thing. I think I did a good job of brushing it off with humor but social retard so...
Depending on what books you’re reading, if I met you at the office I’d be super interested in having a conversation about that. I’m a big reader myself and know very few people in my life who read books consistently. People who talk about their passions (especially if their interests are similar to me such as books, golf, history, movies, theater) are almost always interesting to me.
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Recently I've been saying "I'm looking for a new hobby in the city, what's something I should try?" It's still awkward and fake though. I wonder if it might be necessary to develop a normal "hobby", or at least learn enough to talk about it casually, just to make these moments go more smoothly.
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This is sad. You are not a normie, but you want to become one.
If you succeed, if you make it work, if you learn how to convincingly "pass" as a normie and fit into their society, it would mean living like undercover agent in enemy territory for the rest of your life, and for what "benefits" exactly? Pure monetary/career advancement ones?
Yes, this is what I am worried about: even if I manage to gain social skills, socializing might still be unpleasant. So my question is not only whether it's possible to gain social skills, but also whether it's possible to change one's personality to enjoy casual social connection.
Career, dating, friends, having a "tribe" (not in the political way). Also: developing my skills in things I'm passionate about (e.g., math, software, music). For a long time I thought my technical interests were chiefly solo activities until I met people smarter than me and observed how they bounced ideas off of each other and how fruitful social interaction can be. But being able to establish rapport with people seems necessary for this to work.
Please don’t listen to @Eetan. I faced a similar decision when younger and decided to become more charismatic and personable (talking about becoming a “normie” is dismissive and foolish language). That was the best decision I’ve made in my life.
I now have an incredible partner, a solid group of friends, and literally more activities and social events in my life than I can keep up with. I’m not trying to brag - I was suicidally depressed 12 years ago because of my lack of social success. It is absolutely possible, although difficult, to change your stars, but you’ll never stop wanting it.
As someone else mentioned, either work on it now or drop everything and work on it later at 35. Your choice.
I think much of the callousness toward "normie" behavior stems from a healthy desire to avoid some of the and common vices people indulge. But beyond that, what's more "normie" than exclaiming how un-normal you are? How many movies have you seen where the lesson is that conformity isn't suspect at best?Contrarianism is the fashion. Everybody's special.
I think, along a similar vein to your post, that maturing means moving past the silly idea that what's common is bad and that diversity in itself is some positive good. If anything, the opposite is probably true.
But I can see why a lot of people, especially those to whom social interaction is difficult, want to throw their hands up and declare the effort sour grapes. I think deep down there's a thrill in being an outcast, even if your exile is self-imposed. It's easier than cultivating relationships which lead to in-groups. Us introverts and socially awkward people have special incentive to take that path.
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You need self esteem. You are worried about making mistakes socially because you beat yourself up when you make a mistake, so you are going into the situations feeling negatively about the results. People can sense your negativity, and react with uncertainty because they don't know why you're feeling hesitant or awkward, so react with hesitance and awkwardness in turn.
Think less about yourself. Think more about making the people you're around happy and comfortable, and less about how you feel.
People who are better at social skills than you are aren't smarter or better than you, they just don't beat themselves up if they make a mistake so they're more willing to put themselves out there and make mistakes. They also tend to think more about other people's emotions than their own.
Do you think this is a change that can be made at will?
I'm not convinced this is what socially fluent people are doing most of the time. I know they do it sometimes, since I notice when they are trying to include me / make me feel comfortable, but most of the time they seem to be "performing" - telling a story, going on a fun rant, etc.
The ways I can think of to make people happy and comfortable are to
show interest in their life/hobbies/wellbeing - Asking lots of questions is my go-to, but I think it only gets you so far and eventually tires people out.
show "alignment" through emotional reactions - Recently someone told me about their serious health problems and I couldn't think of anything to say other than "that sucks" (which sounds wrong so I didn't say it and was just awkwardly silent). Later I heard the phrase "that's rough" which I think I'll use next time if I remember. Do you think it's worth learning stock phrases for different situations?
make jokes/banter - I think I'm not quick or witty enough for this
offer compliments - there are so many ways this can fail (too direct, too patronizing, too insincere, etc.), and I don't know if it's the best option for establishing rapport with other men
Are there other ways?
You build self esteem by making changes in your life to become more like the person you want to be and less like the person that you dislike in yourself. For me, I lost weight and took care of my body more and paid more attention to my appearance, and honed my other skills and hobbies outside of physical traits and built an inner dialogue of self respect and over time my self esteem seriously improved. It is a combination of material changes and mental ones, all done at will to improve my life.
If you are asking if thinking about others more is a change that can be made at will, it definitely is. Tell yourself that being too concerned about your own emotions is rude and selfish and that you should think more about other people in social situations. You are making people uncomfortable by being uncomfortable with them, so do your best to make them comfortable. It is rude to make people feel bad, but the answer isn't to withdraw from social situations altogether, because we all need to interact sometimes, for our own good and the good of everyone around us. You have a responsibility not to be a drag to everyone around you, otherwise you are bringing misery to the people around you for no reason. Accept that you have power as (I assume) a grown adult and accept this as a gift that you can help or hurt the people around you by the way that you act, and then act to improve the lives of others, because their lives collectively are more important than your personal comfort. It's immature to be so selfish that you are afraid of embarrassing yourself that you withhold your kindness and friendship from others.
People do this because they're uncomfortable in social situations and are running on a script. You're witnessing their self doubt and if you were better at making them comfortable they would rely less on these performances.
I think the most important advice I have is: don't project your personal insecurities onto other people. Do not seem snooty or ready to put people down. If someone likes something, do not tell them you dislike it, even if you don't like it. Try to listen to what it is they like about that thing. Be compassionate that other people have different experiences to you and try to find a common ground. Go into social situations with less self doubt and selfishness and you will find them more rewarding. Spend time with people you don't see as threatening if you need practice. Talk to children or people with mental handicaps or the elderly, people you do not feel inferior to, to get practice in showing kindness and compassion toward them. Then once you get used to talking with them, remember that everyone is equal and the people you are threatened by are no better than a kid or your grandma and you, too, are worthy of the same respect as everyone else.
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is just to listen to them (or pretend to) and eagerly agree with everything they say. Most people are enamored of their own voices and are never tired of talking all the time if they can.
"Yes"
"Yes, KAREN"
"No, KAREN! This is horrible! How could STACY do this to her best friend? Tell me what happened next!"
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"At will," no. I don't think there are trivial answers here, even though your problem is reasonably common. There are some approaches that work better than others, but a lot of this stuff is context-dependent, which is a serious pain if you have difficulties reading social context.
There's a Youtube channel that I like for this area called Charisma on Command. Yeah, a lot of the video titles are click-baity, but the substance of the channel is a pretty clear exploration of how to build positive social interactions, including when not to. A typical video takes a look at a particular celebrity/public figure, and explores exactly what behaviors project likeability, command respect, and maintain poise.
Often, advice in this area is open-ended, which leads to problems. For example, Chris Hemsworth is very tactile with his friends and coworkers, and is much loved by them. But he's universally tactile; it isn't targeted at one person in particular, which can get creepy fast. He's also sensitive to other people's comfort levels, and backs off smoothly. Touch is a great way to connect with other people, but there are failure modes, and it might not be your style. Keanu Reeves is another example of a beloved public figure, but one who is far more introverted.
Teasing humor can also be a great form of bonding, but only if you know where and how to use it appropriately. It's funny if you aim at someone's strengths, where he has actual confidence, and can shrug off teasing casually. It's hurtful if you aim at weaknesses. Conversely, a compliment will have much more impact if it's both honest and aimed at an area that isn't the other person's most obvious strength. A smart guy or a pretty girl can find someone to tell them "hey, you're smart/pretty" any time--this is expected and takes no insight. So compliment the smart guy on his tenacity for sticking with something that he found difficult, or the pretty girl for her compassion in volunteering at the senior center. Be careful: this can also be taken too far. You're aiming for "I paid attention and noticed this cool-but-not-obvious thing about you," not "I hacked your email/have drones following you/stole your diary."
Hope this helps, and good luck.
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Yes, I've changed my personality quite a bit over the years. One other thing that I was very surprised by is just how much being jacked affords you social leeway. I've been losing weight recently, slowly revealing the muscles I've built over the past 8 years of gym training, and I can literally perceive the difference in social treatment that each additional 10lbs lost makes. I'm planning on writing a longer post on that once I get to where I want to be.
I've been lifting on and off for about 7 years, making slow and unsteady progress, but I'm still skinny by American standards and with a shirt on I look like I've never stepped foot in a gym. I'm aware of the things I need to work on, including consistency, diet, and sleep, but I don't know if I'll ever manage to do everything perfectly. The low reward/effort ratio is honestly frustrating. Do you think it would be worth getting on PEDs?
No, don't get on PEDs if you 'look like you've never stepped foot in a gym'. Not a fan of PEDs generally, you get some extra muscle in exchange for moderate but significant health risks, but they're pretty much pointless if you're still struggling with 'consistency, diet, sleep'.
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It might be, if you estimate that increases in your social desirability would do more for your happiness than the decreases from possible steroid side-effects. If you start taking steroids, you better do a shit-ton of research first on endocrinology, maybe freeze your sperm before you do this if you really want kids later on (you can still have kids, but you need what's called a "post-cycle therapy" to make your body restart producing testosterone on your own). And be aware that once you start steroids, you're basically committing yourself to a lifetime of TRT. Be aware that you could get enlarged organs, really fucking bad acne on your body, small testicles, high blood pressure, weird mood swings, etc. But it still might be worth it for you.
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I can attest that I’ve changed my personality significantly. It takes a lot of deep work though, I used psychedelics, meditation, therapy, and lots of studying philosophy and religion. It can be done but it has to come from significant, transformational experiences. It’s not a habit you can practice or force yourself into if you want deep change.
Also, it is worth it from where I’m standing. Good luck and Godspeed.
I don't think this is true, really - you can just 'change your personality' by acting differently. That people usually don't is because their desires, knowledge, situation leads them to particular modes that they, at least locally, 'want' to stay in. If you're an "introvert" and start spending a lot of time on social stuff ... you're now an extravert. If you're an "extravert" and just decide to spend a lot of time reading, doing work, instead of being social ... now you're an introvert. I've done both for extended periods of time, and there wasn't any meditation or transformational experience necessary.
This depends on what you mean. I’ve found I can certainly act differently over a period of time and the act becomes easier, but without conscious effort/a good mental state I would revert to prior behaviors and modes.
The sort of change I’m talking about is on a deeper level and doesn’t require any mental upkeep so to speak.
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How do I find groups that will introduce me to psychedelics safely?
Hmmm... this is pretty tough. You general want to trust people a lot before you do psychedelics with them. My strategy was to read a ton about psychedelics, books like this and reading trip reports on Erowid and other sites. Then I just tripped by myself and over time found others with similar inclinations.
I would also say Meetup is a good app to find curious, interesting people. Look for book clubs with heterodox views or similar groups.
Did you need to know someone to get your hands on the stuff?
I did, but you don’t necessarily. You can order them from dark web markets, just Google Gwern’s discussion for a guide.
Alternatively if your risk tolerance is slightly higher, and the risk really is pretty small unless you’re reselling, you could go to a site like https://www.mushmoremushmore.com/
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