ffrreerree2
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User ID: 2195
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
Can men respect women as agents?
For all its hypocrisies, there is one aspect of girlboss feminism that continues to seem valid to me, and which makes me frustrated on behalf of women. I am talking about whether men (and women?) can respect or admire or empathize with a woman on the basis of her actions in the world or the way she wields power.
I was recently tickled but these posts on twitter/reddit:
When a man is in the presence of a tender, gentle, trustful, dependent woman, he immediately feels a sublime expansion of his power to protect and shelter this charming, delicate creature. In the presence of such weakness he feels stronger, more competent, bigger, and manlier than ever. This feeling of strength and power is the most enjoyable he can experience. The apparent need of the woman for protection, instead of arousing contempt for her lack of ability, appeals to the very noblest feelings within him.
and
This is not very feminist of me but I think it’s great rizz for a woman to pretend to occasionally need help with stuff she can actually do on her own. Don’t pretend to be a moron or anything but I think even modern men like to be needed
In response to a man's story about "the haunting feeling of fumbling a 10/10":
When I read men’s opinions on women and interactions with women it gives me this disgusting skin crawling feeling all over that makes me want to puke. I wish I was born a lesbian.
I bring these examples up not to harangue men but to explicitly set aside the discourse about romantic relationships, in which most men and women seem happy to accept a certain asymmetry. A male friend recently gave me the dating advice that what's important in a partner is that they are "naturally happy", which struck me as a hilariously insufficient and condescending criterion, better suited to choosing a puppy. As a spergy gay man, I don't have a dog in this fight, if it is a fight, but I do find explicit commentary on the expectations of gendered social interaction helpful (and entertaining).
But outside the romantic context, is there not still a weird asymmetry in attitudes? For instance, women seem more able to put themselves in the shoes of male protagonists in fiction, while men generally seem uninterested in female protagonists. I am not here to say that you are sexist if you did not enjoy Captain Marvel. I hate being lectured to in my entertainment as much as anyone and find woke fiction repulsive. But it's generally hard to think of good examples of female characters occupying much mindshare among men. (Skyler White?) Who are the female counterparts to Harry Potter or Sherlock Holmes, popular among both boys and girls (and whose roles and stories do not particularly depend on their masculinity)? And of all feminist talking points, the Bechdel test stands out as one that I actually find revealing.
I am happy to grant or even defend all the usual replies, such as that women are in fact less likely to be out in the world doing extreme, daring, exciting, risky things that make for good stories. Maybe when women attempt to fill traditionally masculine roles, they will be less effective, less capable. Never mind that few women want to be mob bosses or whatever in the first place. But none of that entails that when women are competent actors in the world, men should be uninterested or even annoyed.
On the flip side, one could argue that women actually deserve no "empathy credit" for their interest in male protagonists, or at least no more credit than men deserve for their interest in Princess Leia, if women are only interested in stories about men taking action in the world when that is precisely what makes them eligible mates. But I'm not entirely convinced here.
Of course I don't think it's a moral failing if, say, by some effect of psychology, a man is incapable of admiring a woman for her achievements in the same way he might admire a man. Maybe nothing can be done to change such feelings. But if this is generally true of men, more than the reverse is true of women, then when I see rallying cries of the "nevertheless she persisted" variety, after the cringe has subsided, I must still have some lingering sympathy.
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
If assimilation into this elite is so easy given a little money, as you seem to suggest, how can this status "define ... every aspect of one's outcome in life"? Can you give examples of people (or types of people) that we'd consider PMC in the American context but who can never be members of the British elite?
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
I feel you. An annoying thing about the West is the icebreakers like "what makes you special" (which would seem dangerously narcissistic back home) or "what are your hobbies". I don't really consider "reading" (my main activity) a hobby which makes things more awkward for me.
Recently I've been saying "I'm looking for a new hobby in the city, what's something I should try?" It's still awkward and fake though. I wonder if it might be necessary to develop a normal "hobby", or at least learn enough to talk about it casually, just to make these moments go more smoothly.
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
Then I just tripped by myself
Did you need to know someone to get your hands on the stuff?
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
Do you think this is a change that can be made at will?
Think more about making the people you're around happy and comfortable, and less about how you feel.
I'm not convinced this is what socially fluent people are doing most of the time. I know they do it sometimes, since I notice when they are trying to include me / make me feel comfortable, but most of the time they seem to be "performing" - telling a story, going on a fun rant, etc.
The ways I can think of to make people happy and comfortable are to
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show interest in their life/hobbies/wellbeing - Asking lots of questions is my go-to, but I think it only gets you so far and eventually tires people out.
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show "alignment" through emotional reactions - Recently someone told me about their serious health problems and I couldn't think of anything to say other than "that sucks" (which sounds wrong so I didn't say it and was just awkwardly silent). Later I heard the phrase "that's rough" which I think I'll use next time if I remember. Do you think it's worth learning stock phrases for different situations?
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make jokes/banter - I think I'm not quick or witty enough for this
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offer compliments - there are so many ways this can fail (too direct, too patronizing, too insincere, etc.), and I don't know if it's the best option for establishing rapport with other men
Are there other ways?
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
I've been lifting on and off for about 7 years, making slow and unsteady progress, but I'm still skinny by American standards and with a shirt on I look like I've never stepped foot in a gym. I'm aware of the things I need to work on, including consistency, diet, and sleep, but I don't know if I'll ever manage to do everything perfectly. The low reward/effort ratio is honestly frustrating. Do you think it would be worth getting on PEDs?
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
if you learn how to convincingly "pass" as a normie and fit into their society, it would mean living like undercover agent in enemy territory for the rest of your life
Yes, this is what I am worried about: even if I manage to gain social skills, socializing might still be unpleasant. So my question is not only whether it's possible to gain social skills, but also whether it's possible to change one's personality to enjoy casual social connection.
for what "benefits" exactly? Pure monetary/career advancement ones?
Career, dating, friends, having a "tribe" (not in the political way). Also: developing my skills in things I'm passionate about (e.g., math, software, music). For a long time I thought my technical interests were chiefly solo activities until I met people smarter than me and observed how they bounced ideas off of each other and how fruitful social interaction can be. But being able to establish rapport with people seems necessary for this to work.
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
How do I find groups that will introduce me to psychedelics safely?
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
Not infrequently someone here will ask for advice on improving their social skills, and I guess this week it's my turn.
My question: can anyone offer testimonials of having significantly altered their personality through conscious effort? I've become increasingly skeptical that certain kinds of change are possible.
I am 30, socially retarded, and have tried much of the usual advice, including
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joining hobby groups (sports, dance, music, improv, rationalists, board games) - never made any lasting friends
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improving fitness / grooming / appearance - this is in progress and I expect I'll continue to work on this
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talking to strangers - doesn't go well (nor particularly poorly, just awkwardly)
My concern is that hanging out with people who are not very close friends is 1) difficult, in that I suck at establishing rapport, thinking of things to say, responding with appropriate emotion, 2) extremely tiring, and therefore 3) just unpleasant. This is true even if the people are super nerdy and share the same interests as me. One has to keep track of the words, body language, and emotional states of both oneself and one's interlocutor, and that is too much for my brain to handle. Literally there will be moments when I realize I should probably stop staring at the floor and make some normal brief eye contact, and in the second it takes me to adjust, I will lose track of the other person's sentence, and therefore be unable to respond appropriately.
Roughly from 2016 to 2019, I aggressively (by my standards) sought out chances to practice socializing and attended more meetups / hobby groups than I wanted to. Looking back, I don't think my social skills improved much, and socializing didn't ever get more fun or bearable. I did, however, get better at noticing the social skills I lack. Some things I've learned are
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the chasm between how normal extroverts experience life and how I do is even wider than I thought
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the facility and graceful precision with which sociable people can smooth over a bad joke, off-color statement, or awkward silence is incredible
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the returns to social skills in every aspect of life - friends, dating, career, learning, general wellbeing - are much greater than I realized
I am now trying to decide whether I should redouble my efforts in this area (which is tiring and demoralizing) or essentially give up, and just live my life in the way that is natural to me: avoid talking to people whenever possible, one or two close friends excepted, never leave home except for work and necessary errands, and accept that I'll miss out on the benefits of human connection.
Other facts about me:
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My coworkers are brilliant, most clearly smarter than me. In general this makes small talk more difficult since the bar for a comment being passably interesting is higher.
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I am temperamentally boring and don't really enjoy most activities people find fun, especially if they involve leaving the house. Books and movies are good enough for me.
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I started taking Vyvanse recently, which probably doesn't help here. But my social problems predate Vyvanse.
ffrreerree2
1yr ago
At the risk of making discussion even less substantive and more personal, I ask: are you, by any chance, like myself, a self-hating person of East Asian descent?
The only people I know who are as obsessed as you are with the particular deficiencies of the Chinese soul are myself and a small number of acquaintances, also of Chinese descent. Occasionally we will have conversations along the lines of "why do we just kind of suck?" We'll challenge our other friends to name a single courageous, empathetic, inspiring Chinese leader, and they'll come up with some names, and I'll say those are pretty weak examples, and they'll say, well how many courageous empathetic inspiring leaders of other races can you name? And I'll ask whether basic kindness is even a virtue in Chinese culture, which will elicit eyerolls. Etc.
While I am somewhat heartened by the testimonies of commenters here who insist that they have interacted with East Asians and found them all right, I remain, like you, hooked on this idea of a fundamental racial difference in disposition, even if I cannot put my finger on exactly what it is. And I'm sure I would be shot down just as you have been if I tried to make more specific claims. However, I'm less sure that this is important on a geopolitical or civilizational level. There's definitely some vibe mismatch, and sometimes vibes are superficial and sometimes not. Anyway, if you do not happen to be an undercover East Asian, I suppose I can only express my hope for general tolerance.
I will respond to you on one specific point:
3.2 MASKS PEOPLE, MASKS! Explain to me why, until perhaps the last two months, your average East-Asian American was more likely to be masked than blue-anon types. Isn't the parsimonious answer simply that infants who won't fight to uncover their nose, become adults that are indifferent to showing their face?
Speaking only for myself, I still wear a mask sometimes for several reasons: 1) it's cold out, and a mask keeps my face warm, 2) I seem to get sick easily, 3) when I have allergies I feel more free to sneeze/throat-clear on a crowded bus if I'm wearing a mask, 4) it seems to produce some feeling of psychological safety, as with sunglasses, 5) the lower half of my face isn't especially attractive, so I'm not losing too much, 6) it might deter unwanted chitchat when I'm in a hurry, a bit like headphones. (Reasons 4-6 are more just slight benefits that counterbalance the negatives.)
An aging species tries to save itself
We begin with Do It For Denmark. The angle in this ad campaign is sex. Don't you want to have sex? No? Well, do it for your country, or at least your mother, who wants grandchildren. We'll also throw in a travel discount for a romantic holiday getaway, where you will hopefully have sex. Of course, the declining appeal of sex is probably not the main cause of declining birth rates.
Like Denmark, Iran also has a fertility rate of around 1.7, but of course we find a more conservative version of the exhortation to build a family in this ad from an Iranian cultural center. The sell now focuses on the benefits of a tradwife: she'll replace your alarm clock, cook you healthy meals, and give you children. I guess they saw no need for an ad on the benefits of a tradhusband.
For the most direct and honest appeal we turn to Taiwan, whose fertility rate of 1.0-1.2 portends a crisis possibly even worse than the much-discussed demographics of its belligerent neighbor. To a soundtrack that tries to be hopeful, this PSA from the Taiwanese ministry of education, which I recommend watching, pleads its case:
Once upon a time, building a family [/ settling down] meant that the man got a second mother [a wife cooks in the kitchen], while the woman had to leave her parents' home [to join the multigenerational household of her husband]. It took many years for her to realize she could search for her own voice ... outside marriage [they return their wedding rings in a bittersweet farewell].
One upon a time, building a family [/ settling down] meant the man's domain was outside the home, and the woman's inside. So they ended up living in separate worlds [split screen: woman waits on the sofa while the man works late]. But sometimes, all it took to break down conventional roles [man pushing a stroller with his son] ... was a chance. [Text: More and more men are taking paternity leave.]
Once upon a time, building a family meant rushing [to have kids], as if to wait was to waste [her] youth / prime years [pregnant woman hands her boss her notice of leave].
[Text advertises increased government assistance for fertility issues.]
When we've learned to better empathize with others, we've become stronger supporters of each other [happy gay couple]. And behind every step of progress we make [happy lesbian couple] ... are countless clashes and acts of persuasion. [Text: paternal benefits are also open to same-sex couples.]
Although things aren't perfect, over the decades we've seen more and more ways to build a family [group of happy young people at a restaurant]. And of course that includes starting a family while single [woman walks alone at night]. Because in a democratic society, everyone has the right to decide how they want to live their life.
[A couple takes care of their baby. The camera lingers on a pamphlet: "From 0 to 6 years old: raising a kid together with your country."]
With gender education [?] and environmental awareness as our starting point, let's work together as a society to do our "homework": raising the next generation. [Montage of different kinds of families.] We promise to work even harder to take care of more families, and make it normal and comfortable for everyone to ...
[final screen with slogan] choose to build a family, together.
I don't know about you, but the earnestness and sheer desperation in this plea really broke me down. And I have no reason to think the whole project isn't exactly that: an act of desperation.
Growing up in a conservative part of the US, I felt a little less lonely seeing images of people living openly gay lives in, say, New York. Now the gay teens in my high school are probably doing fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if some soul in Egypt finds hope in some bland pride gesture from a sports team or influencer from my hometown.
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