This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
As far as I can tell that labor MP basically made that number up based on nothing in particular.
Which estimates are these
The 1 in 6 and 200k numbers you quoted were not restricted to Rotherham alone (there are not enough people in Rotherham for 200k girls to be raped). What is the relationship between "1 in 6" and "hundreds of thousands"?
Haven’t found hundreds of thousands yet but 20,000 official reported cases in 2018-2019 alone.
Assume at least that many cases again unreported, and account for increased migration and some number of new victims a year, and I think you could get to 100,000 pretty easily.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grooming-child-sex-abuse-exploitation-rotherham-rochdale-police-a9215261.html
Concerning, but I don't think that it's quite the same as OP's claim. Presumably not every girl that gets groomed (I couldn't find the definition they are using here) actually gets raped. There's also this line which makes me think that I don't understand what they are measuring:
In what sense can a child "groom" a peer? Or is that just a vanishingly small number of cases? I guess we'll have to wait for some kind of official report.
Your 16 year old Pakistani 'boyfriend' can groom you into child prostitution as easily as his 'much older' uncle or father.
More options
Context Copy link
The terminology of "grooming" is confusing here. It implies they were getting too friendly with these girls on discord and maybe sharing explicit links with them. Reading wikipedia all the accounts given are just straight up rape. I can only read this as deliberate obfuscation
No they would groom them using the standard methods. Offer them food, alcohol, drugs and attention. Posing as "boyfriends" at first before coercing them into more and more extreme behaviors. Blackmailing them with those previous acts and threats to them and family. It's a tried and tested method across the world for those grooming vulnerable young people into prostitution (which is what most of these gangs were doing).
Grooming is the term we would use in social care at the time. Remember this started in the 80's and onward. The grooming term used in the online era is derived from the terms we used at the time for the more "old school" methods. But the initial context for almost all these girls was luring them in to what they thought was a relationship before then taking advantage of that. That's why grooming is the correct term. A gang which simply outright kidnapped girls off the street would be picked up much more quickly.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
We usually call it date rape, but the actual difference between being taken advantage of by an age peer and being taken advantage of by a grown man is not really one of the behavior in use.
More options
Context Copy link
Look at the Wikipedia page for the Rotherham scandal, though. Even on Wikipedia, you can see how much under-reporting and mis-reporting still occurs. You’re never going to get a good source saying X many girls were tortured and raped by Pakistani gangs. They will use euphemisms like ‘grooming’, they will misdescribe the perpetrators or hide the number in some other category wherever possible, they will refuse to count anything without definitive proof that can’t be explained away.
1 in 3 or 1 in 6 is obviously wrong but 100,000 in a country of 60,000,000 seems entirely plausible to me.
It’s entirely possible for an 18 year old teenager to recruit a 14 year old girl, either for himself or older relatives.
This is actually an extreme improvement from the state of the page a few months ago, when they attempted to cobble together a narrative that the whole thing was a racist hoax (the page got renamed "grooming gang moral panic in the United Kingdom" and rewritten to match). It stood that way for several months before people started to take notice and they quietly changed it back without admitting fault.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If "grooming" is the authorities' way of saying "raping", it makes perfect sense
No matter how you slice it, this is clearly measuring something beyond the central case of Pakistani men rapping teenage girls en masse.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
1 in 6 in the most affected cities.
Which cities?
Rotherham
I already posted a breakdown of the city in reply to you.
https://www.themotte.org/post/1322/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/282955?context=8#context
So 1 in 6 is just in Rotherham. Okay, that seems correct (though I wish you had said "affected city" to be more exact) and has nothing to do with the "hundreds of thousands" figure.
Where is "hundreds of thousands" coming from? Clearly that's not just Rotherham, so where is this number from?
There were Dozens if not hundreds of cities that had Grooming gangs like this, Rotherham is simply the most famous.
There are only 55 cities in England. Rotherham isn't even one of them. There are barely 150 towns OR cities the size of Rotherham or bigger. Unless you are thinking places like Bury St Edmonds which have a total of about 100 male adult Muslims has 25% of that population being in grooming gangs, there simply cannot be hundreds of places like this. Your understanding of the scale of England is clearly terrible.
More options
Context Copy link
Can you give list of 100 such cities?
More options
Context Copy link
So where is the number from?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link