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PaperclipPerfector  9d ago (text post)   30253 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 9, 2024

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I'm not convinced that people even need to put down the fork. I can eat as much as I want and exercise very little but remain thin. Mostly I don't eat ultra-processed food, I just eat whole food.

https://openknowledge.fao.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/5277b379-0acb-4d97-a6a3-602774104629/content

Formulations of ingredients, mostly of exclusive industrial use, made by a series of industrial processes, many requiring sophisticated equipment and technology (hence ‘ultra-processed’). Processes used to make ultra-processed foods include the fractioning of whole foods into substances, chemical modifications of these substances, assembly of unmodified and modified food substances using industrial techniques such as extrusion, moulding and pre-frying; use of additives at various stages of manufacture whose functions include making the final product palatable or hyper-palatable; and sophisticated packaging, usually with plastic and other synthetic materials. Ingredients include sugar, oils or fats, or salt, generally in combination, and substances that are sources of energy and nutrients that are of no or rare culinary use such as high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated or interesterified oils, and protein isolates; classes of additives whose function is to make the final product palatable or more appealing such as flavours, flavour enhancers, colours, emulsifiers, and sweeteners, thickeners, and anti-foaming, bulking, carbonating, foaming, gelling, and glazing agents; and additives that prolong product duration, protect original properties or prevent proliferation of microorganisms.

Doesn't sound very appetizing! But it obviously is, ultra-processed food is 60% of US calorie consumption: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ultra-processed-foods-calories-american-diet/

It seems very reasonable that eating things full of strange chemicals causes unusual health problems. Circus freaks from 1900 have nothing on the physiques you can see waddling around these days, they wouldn't even make it onto my 600 pound life. And the US is exporting this all around the world.

I can eat as much as I want and exercise very little but remain thin.

The obvious retort is that the amount you want to eat is less than the amount fatties want to eat.

Yes but why is that? I never bothered counting calories or exercising any restraint. My willpower is pretty low, all things considered. I barely do much exercise, I guess I walk longer distances than most people but that's about it, I don't go to a gym or anything. I occasionally do some bodyweight exercises, I can do sixty pushups but that's probably mostly because I'm thin. It takes only a few minutes each day for a few months to get to that level and I plateaued since.

My BMI is 20. Australia is a pretty fat country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_Australia

I can only assume that a diet of fruit, good bread, milk and whole foods is superior to a diet of largely processed foods. I have chips and icecream sometimes, I'm not a puritan about these things.

This sounds like humblebragging and I guess it technically is but I think there must be something that can be learnt. Back in the 1960s everyone was like me. They could eat whatever they liked, drink a lot of alcohol and still not get fat like we see today. They were working desk jobs too! They just got sated. I get sated. When I eat a big dinner, I might not feel any need to eat even in the next morning, it doesn't cross my mind. I barely ever feel hungry.

I just don't see how I can be a genetic freak when this is how everyone used to live.

It's probably something in the water, given that obesity rates are lower in the mountains and highest at the mouths of long rivers....

I mean, I think the steelman for chemicals causing obesity is 'endocrine disruptors changing desires' more than 'microplastics make you hold on to fat'. But for another, everyone in the sixties smoked cigarettes(which does control appetite). Everyone fatshamed. Snacking was very expensive so people didn't do a lot of it. People were just more active in general. Etc, etc.

I am crazy overweight, I eat zero 'ultra-processed' food, and unless you count things like 'bread' and 'cheese' as processed, I eat basically zero processed foods.

Personally, I think I just enjoy food more than other people. God I love food. I love eating. It is basically the only thing I really enjoy in life. When I bite into a home made migas taco, the melted cheese, the crunch of the fried tortilla strips*, the creamy avocado, it makes my whole brain light up. I am salivating just writing this.

This is just a single datapoint though, maybe I am the weirdo and most people are like you.

*Does frying corn tortillas in some avocado oil count as 'processed'?

I run 6 days a week, lift weights 3 days a week and intermittent fast from 6pm to 10am. I don't eat "processed" foods either. I've still been gaining weight and DEXA scans confirm that it's actually fat that's being gained.

I've been struggling with obesity since I was a teenager[1]. I had a foothold on it in my 30s in that I was simply overweight and not obese but now it feels out of my control completely. Until...

Personally, I think I just enjoy food more than other people. God I love food. I love eating. It is basically the only thing I really enjoy in life. When I bite into a home made migas taco, the melted cheese, the crunch of the fried tortilla strips*, the creamy avocado, it makes my whole brain light up. I am salivating just writing this.

Have you considered... Semaglutide!? I went on it recently and the effect is pretty interesting. Mostly it's a lot more psychological than "physical", for me, so far. I can feel hungry and be in the kitchen, and feel like snacking, but all of the snacks seem like too much work to get out and eat. So I don't.

Cue meme where person with ADHD does Adderall and they're bewildered at their insane focus and energy and cry that this must be how normal people feel all of the time. But non-ironically.

  1. And no it did not magically get fucking better living in Europe. The food in America is not uniquely poisonous.

Yeah I am probably going to try to get on one of the GLP-1 drugs and see how it goes.

You might even want to try more than one, if the first one doesn't give you amazing results. My husband got okay results on semaglutide, then after several months tried switching to tirzepatide and it's doing a whole lot more for him.

Bread is very processed. You take a wheat grain, remove the hull, and maybe the bran and germ, grind it into powder, mix with water, yeast, salt, and some sweetener (probably itself refined), and then you pound and roll that a few times and then cook it. That's a lot of processing.

Cheese is also very processed. It doesn't come out of the cow that way.

*Does frying corn tortillas in some avocado oil count as 'processed'?

OK, so first you take corn. Remove the kernels from the cob, then soak it in alkali water. Then wash it, remove the hull, grind it, Mix with water to make dough. Make the dough into balls, flatten, and cook on a hot flat surface. Just because a Latin American peasant can do it the way she learned from her abuela who learned from hers all the way the back to when it wasn't abuela but na’chin doesn't mean it isn't processing.

Frying it again is also processing. Avocado oil is also processed, though fairly minimally by pressing it out of avocados.

The difference between traditional forms of processing and the modern is that the modern kind is hyper optimized by capitalism, through vast amounts of capital and chemical engineering, for addictiveness and thence profitability. Healthiness could also be optimized for, but unfortunately it’s opaque to most consumers and doesn’t function as a schelling point in any case.

While it is true that Communism in general causes weight loss, there is nothing about capitalism that makes processing worse for you. It's just that capitalism tends to make more food available to most.

Sounds like I'm doomed.

I believe that most American food, even seemingly normal food, is full of weird chemicals.

Brown bread with seeds that goes stale in a few days is better than the kind of cheaper, longer-lasting white bread. Why is white bread so much cheaper and longer-lasting? Because it's full of strange ingredients. I don't know what kind of bread you're getting of course but just look at what Walmart puts in theirs. This was the first American bread that came up in my search: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-White-Round-Top-Bread-20-oz/10315355?classType=REGULAR&athbdg=L1200

Enriched Wheat Flour (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Sugar, Yeast, Soybean Oil, Salt, Vital Wheat Gluten, Dough Conditioners (Mono- & Diglycerides, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Ascorbic Acid), Calcium Propionate (to Retain Freshness), Soy Flour, Encapsulated Sorbic Acid (Sorbic Acid, Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil, Mono- and Diglycerides) (to Retain Freshness), Yeast Nutrients (Calcium Sulfate, Ammonium Sulfate, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate), Soy Lecithin.

Likewise, there's cheese and there's cheese. Cheese can be minimally processed or intensively processed.

Some common ultra-processed products are carbonated soft drinks; sweet, fatty or salty packaged snacks; candies (confectionery); mass produced packaged breads and buns, cookies (biscuits), pastries, cakes and cake mixes; margarine and other spreads; sweetened breakfast ‘cereals’ and fruit yoghurt and ‘energy’ drinks; pre-prepared meat, cheese, pasta and pizza dishes; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ and ‘sticks’; sausages, burgers, hot dogs and other reconstituted meat products; powdered and packaged ‘instant’ soups, noodles and desserts; baby formula; and many other types of product. See table 1, below

Industrial breads made only from wheat flour, water, salt and yeast are processed foods, while those whose lists of ingredients also include emulsifiers or colours are ultra-processed. Plain steel-cut oats, plain corn flakes and shredded wheat are minimally processed foods, while the same foods are processed when they also contain sugar, and ultra-processed if they also contain flavours or colours.

It all depends in what's in those corn tortilla chips. I reckon it would be processed, even ultra-processed depending on ingredients.

Based on the search results, here are the ingredients commonly used to make corn tortillas in the USA:

Masa Harina: A type of corn flour made from nixtamalized corn, which is dried and ground into a fine powder. Brands like Masienda, Maseca, and Bob’s Red Mill are popular choices. Water: Warm water is used to rehydrate the masa harina and “bloom” its flavor. Salt (optional): Some recipes include salt to bring out the flavor of the corn. Some store-bought corn tortilla brands in the USA may also include additional ingredients, such as:

Cellulose Gum: A thickening agent used to improve texture and shelf life. Guar Gum: A thickening agent used to enhance texture and prevent drying out. Amylase: An enzyme used to break down starches and improve texture. Propionic Acid: A preservative used to extend shelf life. Benzoic Acid: A preservative used to prevent spoilage. Phosphoric Acid: A preservative used to maintain freshness.

I just made myself dinner. I went through the ingredients, this is far and away my most common meal and I make this or a slight variation on this for probably 60% of my meals in a year. Butter - Cream(milk), Salt. Ground Beef - Beef, Barilla Brand Pasta - Semolina (Wheat), Durum Wheat Flour, Pasta Sauce - Water, Tomato Paste, Diced Tomatoes, Tomato Juice, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Garlic, Onions, Basil, Black Pepper, Oregano, Dried Basil. Extra Virgin Olive Oil - Extra Virgin Olive Oil. I also added up the calories, the whole thing comes out to almost 4000. I normally make this for lunch, eat half of it, and eat the other half for dinner. It should be obvious to anyone why this combined with a sedentary life style will result in my becoming very fat without the need for any weird chemicals (Although maybe Semolina is full of weird chemicals?).

I think it is highly unlikely that these chemicals are very important in the broader picture of American obesity. These chemicals are just as common in all of Latin America, who do about the same as most of the EU on obesity, and Japan (who does better than basically everyone on obesity?) also puts this junk in all their, enormously popular, convenience store bread products.

Although maybe Semolina is full of weird chemicals?

Semolina is coarsely ground durum wheat (as opposed to "durum wheat flour" which is finely ground durum wheat). No more weird chemicals than any wheat.

I mean, all the ingredients and cooking seems perfectly fine here.

As a fellow food enjoyer, the obvious problem seems to be portion size. You're going to eat everything because it's delicious, so just make less of it.

Latin America, who do about the same as most of the EU on obesity

? Latin America is a very fat region. Mexico is literally the fattest country in the world, moreso than the US. And in any case, a region where food insecurity is an actual problem that needs to be worried about(albeit not the normative experience) is not a fair comparison to the second richest region in human history.

But to your point- yes, if you eat 4k calories a day before accounting for breakfast, drinks, snacks, and desert, it does not take 'chemicals' to explain obesity. I will make a similar dish to what you do and eat leftovers for lunch for an entire week(with sides, of course).

Also, I don't eat breakfast, snacks, desserts or drink anything other than water(but I would eat desserts if I kept them in the house).

I just looked at the Wikipedia list of countries by obesity. Mexico is 36% of adults with obesity, Hungary (hah) is a slightly higher 36, Ireland is 30, El Salvador is 29, Germany is 24, Colombia is 23. It is possible this data is wrong or misleading though?

Mexico at 36% just seems shockingly low to me.

Hmm, well, I guess I consider this good counter-evidence against my theory.

What you're describing I totally understand. I call them "fat thoughts" and I live my day-to-day life suppressing them. I imagine that "fat thoughts" and "gay thoughts" are distinct categories of intrusive thoughts but I feel like I could understand one from having experienced the other.

I hear that the GLP-1 Agonist drugs make the fat thoughts go away, it would be super funny if they turned out to also make gay thoughts go away too, someone should test that.

I think this is pretty true across most domains of enjoyment. I know people who weep at the sound of beautiful music or a great piece of art. Your thing is food. I don’t see that as a reason why you can’t try to keep things within reasonable limits.

Agreed, I think I can diet and lose weight, I just imagine it takes more of an effort of willpower for me (or someone like me) than for some other people.

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