Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
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User ID: 290
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
16hr ago
Why is it important that the definition makes an allowance for the aspects that can be changed?
Why is it important that it not?
And why [...] not other far more easily changeable aspects (eg is holding a baby-shaped object, or has painted nails, or etc)?
Because those aspects are not biological in nature, and thus irrelevant to my point that not all biological factors are immutable. They could be relevant in other contexts; e. g. if G. is exclusively attracted to (male, female)-presenting individuals, including those who are both biologically (female, male) and identify as (women, men), then for the question "Could G. be potentially attracted to this person?", clothing and hairstyle might be relevant.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
16hr ago
Note that (1.) that is the last definition listed, and (2.) killing someone is a subset of getting rid of them.
Kennedy was deep-sixed and thus 86ed; Nixon was 86ed but not deep-sixed.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
16hr ago
So rapists trying to avoid serving their sentences in male prisons are not acting in bad faith when they suddenly "discover" a female gender identity immediately before going into trial, not even if they make zero effort to medically transition and only the most token effort to socially transition.
Some of them may be acting in bad faith. I would advise putting criminals who began claiming to be trans-women after being charged in a separate facility from both cis-man and cis-women; if someone transitioned before charges were filed against her, I strongly doubt that she is lying about her gender identity.
The only people you see as acting in bad faith when they "identify" as something [conservatives and radfems think] they aren't are the people doing so ironically in order to expose how nonsensical [conservatives and radfems think] your worldview is.
That was the first such case I thought of, but I do not insist that it is the only possible such.
You are more comfortable admitting rapists, murderers and pederasts than you are admitting infidels and gadflies.
On the contrary, while I disagree with your position, I do not desire that you face legal repercussions for expressing it, nor that you be denied employment, nor that your arguments be suppressed in reaching anyone who is interested in reading them. When they come for the transphobes, I will not remain silent, lest they come for me.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
17hr ago
some CRISPR-like technology to basically uplift the entire population at once. [...] Somehow I doubt that this will be to your liking.
Actually, I would consider that a good outcome. If they found a substance that increases a white person's IQ by 30 points and a black person's IQ by 45 points (or whatever the difference is), whoever discovered it would deserve two Nobel prizes, and monumental statues in his/her/their honour.
It is the sacred duty of humanity to remove all inequalities of opportunity that are in our power to ameliorate, including inequality caused by biological factors. When Nature decreed that city dwellers would be cut down by water-borne diseases, did we accept her will as not our place to question, or did we invent the sanitary sewer?
The same applies if Nature has in fact decreed that certain ethnic groups be less capable.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
The Gettysburg address may have been the tipping point, but the writing was on the wall with the railroad and telegraph.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not endorsing the examples as the true definition of 'man' and 'woman', merely stating them as examples to support my statement that not all biological divisions are unchangeable.
(Man, woman) can mean 'has (XY, XX) chromosomes', 'was born with (dangly bit, hole)', 'currently has (dangly bit, hole)', 'has (high, low) T/E ratio', or 'identifies as (man, woman)', and there may be still more possibilities. The first four are all biological in nature, and all of them are potentially useful in different biomedical contexts; two of them we have the ability to change, and two of them we do not as yet.
I'm sure you can see the flaw in the argument that 'the first two criteria given are the true definition of biological sex because biological sex is unchangeable, and biological sex is unchangeable because it is defined by those criteria.'.
(I'm not asserting that that is your reason for choosing those criteria, if indeed you do so. If you have some other reason for defining it that way, to which you would adhere in a hypothetical world in which they were changeable, or if you define 'man' and 'woman' by some other factor, I am willing to consider your arguments.)
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
Two wolves and a sheep....
I suspect that ethnic animus is inversely proportional to living standards, which are downstream of energy supply. If so, then the Greens are one of the most anti-immigrant parties, and AfD, in supporting nuclear energy, might very well contain the seeds of their own destruction.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
Why have you stopped at that point in particular?
Those are definitions of 'man' and 'woman' which are both biological and alterable with the tech package of our current civilisation.
Why not say that anyone who can hold a baby is a woman, and anyone who can throw a punch is a man?
Because, under that definition, almost everyone would be simultaneously both a man and a woman.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
That movement is still alive and well. Criticism of it can be voiced more openly now, but it still holds key institutions and its supporters are as entrenched as always.
I hope that that doesn't change in either direction. I do not agree with what the 'gender critical' say, but I also do not trust anyone with the power to make them shut up.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
· Edited 16hr ago
So not only is a woman "anyone that identifies as a woman", not really answering the question of what a woman is, what they're identifying with is an identity, thus also not telling us anything about what the act of identifying is supposed to be, and also the type of identity they're identifying with is a gender identity, "gender" being the category that encompasses men and women.
In other words: a woman is anyone who identifies with identifying as a woman.
It's not turtles all the way down; the first step, the foundation, comes from the peaks of the bimodal distribution: there are a large number of people who have XY chromosomes, a 🍆 between their legs, a higher T/E ratio, and a certain mental aspect that (if they have it at all) is of a certain type; there are a similar number of people who have XX chromosomes, a 🌮 between their legs, a lower T/E ratio, and a different type of that mental aspect (if they have it at all).
To a first approximation, we call the first group 'men¹' and the second group 'women'. Then, we sort out the edge cases, including those in which the various characteristics do not align with each other, and those in which they impart a visceral feeling of wrongness to their possessor.
I appreciate the efforts to come up with a coherent answer in the aftermath of Matt Walsh's documentary, but I think you guys still have a long way ahead of you.
There was a time when the Abolitionists had a long way ahead of them.
What would be an indicator of bad faith?
The following account is an attempt to construct the strongest possible such indicator:
Henry has a long history of opposing gender transition, same-gender relationships, and gender-nonconforming behavior, especially among men. He has multiple criminal charges for harassing and assaulting men, and women he thinks are men, for not living up to his standard of masculinity, including three assault charges for attacking gay couples, one assault charge for trying to hit a coworker's hand with a hammer when the coworker came in wearing pink nail polish applied by his daughter, one assault charge for shoving a visiting Scotsman into a wall for wearing a kilt (Henry wound up in hospital), one charge for leaving a wood-chipper (with an "Insert groomers here" sign" on the front lawn of a local bar owner who hosted a (21+) drag show, and two charges for beating up women who were attempting to use the men's lavatory (one trans, one when there was a long line for the ladies' room).
A public referendum is held on the question of whether trans individuals ought to be allowed to use the WC of their identified gender; Henry campaigns vehemently against it; despite this, or perhaps because of it, the referendum passes with a clear majority,
The next day, Henry announces: "I now identify as a woman; therefore, you either have to let me use the women's room, or make the [redacted]s use the men's room! Either way, they'll get what's coming to them if they don't man up, ha ha ha!"
I would state with a minimum of 95% confidence that Henry is acting in bad faith.
¹Originally we called them 'were-men' and the other group 'wif-men'; 'man' without prefix was gender neutral.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
86 = get rid of, originally a code of uncertain derivation referring to a restaurant expelling a customer who has become tired and emotional as a newt; 47 = 47th president; someone apparently confused '86' with 'deep six' (from the standard depth of a grave) and thought it was a death threat.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
Again, what would they be identifying with?
The gender identity which has a lot more people born with 🌮 than with 🍆.
Hiw would you know? How do you know that the trans women that do put on a dress and whatnot aren't lying?
It was revealed to me in a dream. I can make an educated guess; in the absence of indicators of bad faith, I give them the benefit of the doubt.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
I meant the 'hormones and secondary characteristics mediated by hormones' definition, and the 'what plumbing one currently has' definition.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
2+2 had a different answer than the 4 that was a correct answer.
2 + 2 = 5, for large values of 2.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
I'm more than happy to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with Somalians and aboriginals etc., and to help them achieve the most they can with their inherent abilities.
a standard of living and civilization beyond their ability to maintain.
The standard of living people can maintain themselves is orthogonal to the standard of living they deserve. Our ancestors did not deserve to bury half their children before their fifth birthdays, even if they could not maintain a low infant mortality rate themselves.
We (with the exception of Social Darwinists and others of that kidney) expect society to give many people within a racial group 'a standard of living beyond their ability to maintain', e. g., children, the elderly, and the disabled. I am simply advocating that this standard be applied to the 'Human' race.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
For any purpose that is. if you aren't interacting with the trans individual's body, any of your beeswax.
(Also, some definitions of 'biological sex' can be changed.)
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
'Woman'.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
If she identifies as a woman, yes. (I doubt there are any transwomen fitting those specifications, though.)
If he is lying in order to pivot progressives to maintaining the black-and-white 1-bit oversimplification he was taught back when he was knee-high to a grasshopper, no.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
I believe that that is addressed in the fifteenth chapter of the Gospel According to St Luke.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
So effeminate men are women, actually?
Not unless they identify as such.
And trans women, who aren't adopting the female gender role well enough aren't actually women?
They still identify as women, they're women.
(Perhaps you're thinking of gender presentation?)
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
Yes; Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and H. sapiens sapiens.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
what is a woman?
For most purposes, a woman is someone who either (a.) is of the gender identity found more commonly in people born with vulvas, or (b.) has no gender identity and has a vulva.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
Sapir and Whorf are doing the opposite of rolling in their graves right now.
What about C. S. Lewis?
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
Sometimes I wonder if there's anyone left anywhere who actually believes this.
I don't know whether it is possible to achieve, but it would be a good outcome if it were, and I believe it is every person's duty to put their greatest effort towards it.
Those of us who try, even if we are not successful, will be able to stand before the Ultimate Judge and say that we did not fail to do our utmost.
I don't know specifically what gender identity means more specifically, because I do not personally experience it. If I woke up tomorrow in a body with the opposite plumbing, I would consider myself to be a different gender from what I had previously been; other individuals would experience acute dysphoria and be strongly motivated to reverse the change.
That was something I forgot to mention; not only are most people with a certain mental aspect born with 🌮, but a sizable number of the remainder have a strong sense that they should have been, and mutatis mutandis for the other common type of that aspect and 🍆.
That is why we call those types 'man' and 'woman' instead of 'veeblefetzer' and 'wakalix'.
So now we have the question of "Are the transgender activists more like the former, or the latter?". I believe that the relevant distinction is "Does this thing hurt anyone?"; to borrow a phrase from Thomas Jefferson, "Does it pick my pocket or break my leg?". A legalisation of the sexual abuse of children would be harmful; the abolition of slavery was not harmful; a more nuanced understanding of gender is not harmful.
A minimum of 95%.
I do not support allowing either a genuine trans-woman or a cis-man pretending to be a trans-woman to do anything from which we forbid a cis-woman. On the other hand, if Mr Burly Lumberjack claims to be a trans-woman in order to go into the women's room, do his business, wash his hands, and leave without bothering anyone, I would prefer him to the Karen insisting on inspecting between the legs of any woman she thinks is insufficiently feminine (many of whom are cis-women).
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