site banner
PaperclipPerfector  8d ago (text post)   25707 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 25, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Suffice it to say; the Culture War isn't great for cops. So, if one of the best solutions to crime is to have lots more cops, and we assume some sort of political minor miracle wherein we all agree on this and fund it, I worry about our ability to fill the ranks

It isn't just the Culture War; the left isn't 100% wrong. We actually don't have angels in the form of police officers, and a lot of cops get into law enforcement because they get to exercise power over others. We also have a lot of laws which would allow them to do so legitimately. Greatly increase the number of cops, and even if you avoid the anarcho-tyranny trap and do reduce crime, you also make the place more of a stifling police state for people you wouldn't normally consider 'criminals'.

and a lot of cops get into law enforcement because they get to exercise power over others.

I'd argue this is 100% culture war. Has there been any study that replicates that can point to a major motivating factor of police recruits being authoritarian impulses? Related, is there any data that backs up the (goofy) claim that X% of people who join the military do so in order to be able to kill people.

How would such a study even be constructed? Self-surveys? Big 5 personality traits? This is exactly the kind of data that can always been squinted-at in just the right way so as to "back-up" a latent intent kind of assertion.

I don't know about the military claim, but I base my belief in that canard on my own perspective. I knew people as a youth who became cops and they were people who abused power in their teens and went on to abuse power as police. I have daydreamed about being an anti-hero, doing bad things for justice, could I resist the temptation to live out those fantasies if I was in a position to actualise them? I believe I could, I have been tested and stayed strong in the past. And I believe I could the second time and the third and fourth and so on for a while, but the 2054th time? The 20,743rd time? I like to think I would. I don't have that faith in anyone else on this planet however.

Beyond that though, we live in the era of justification. Everything can be justified if you widen or narrow your focus a bit! Principles are for contemptuous chumps and losers who are coping about their failure to win by any means necessary. The DNC came out and said they spent the entire campaign period lying to their supporters and the public in general, telling them they were winning when that was never true and people aren't mad at them for lying, they are mad at Joe Rogan for believing in dragons. That's for the highest office in the land and you think cops are going to be more honest? I'd guess nybbler was wrong saying it was a lot of people joining for power, but it definitely happens more than it should.

and a lot of cops get into law enforcement because they get to exercise power over others.

I'd argue this is 100% culture war. Has there been any study that replicates that can point to a major motivating factor of police recruits being authoritarian impulses?

What difference would it make? If there were, you would (quite possibly rightly) accuse the researchers of bias. But have you ever met any cops? Did you know people in school who grew up to become cops?

But have you ever met any cops? Did you know people in school who grew up to become cops?

Yes, a few regular cops, a campus cop, and a couple conservation officers. (All have arrest powers with varying jurisdictions. I'm using a slightly-broad definition, but nothing too crazy.)

I'll pit my anti-authoritarian anecdotes against your vague implications any day.

Yes. Dozens. Military as well.

None of the cops comes across as authoritarian-seeking power trippers. Most are deeply committed to the idea of justice. A minority are just doing what their Dads did. In High School, they were all athletes except for one who was just sort of a meathead.

I think both perspectives might be accurate. I lived in a conservative area and then a liberal area. The first was pretty pro-cop the second was not.

The cops coming from the pro cop area seemed universally better than the candidates coming from the anti cop area.

And talking to cops, they also tend to know who the shitbags on the force are.

Yes. Most cops expect to make a good living doing rewarding work that benefits the community, and have a job that is high status in the circles they tend to come from.

have you ever met any cops? Did you know people in school who grew up to become cops?

Yes, have you?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats