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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   2325 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 1, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

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My wife and I are thinking of having kids, but we’re both somewhat on the fence. My wife leans more into the NO camp and I lean a bit more into the YES camp.

Factors to consider:

  1. I have family nearby but the relationship between them and my wife is not great. My mother in particular is kind of insane. Her family is in a state that’s about a 10-hour drive away.
  2. Financially we are stable upper-middle class (I work in Big Tech and she has a stable fake email job) but no housing that we actually own (we rent out an apartment my mother owns). My wife wants a bigger place for kids but housing prices are insane (we can afford it though) and I think buying a house at the same time we have kids would stress the budget a bit more than I’m comfortable with.
  3. I always saw myself having kids but I’m not sure I can really commit to losing all of my independence and free time. I tend to need a lot of down time from my job and I don’t know if I can handle being always “on” with a kid in the mix.
  4. Seeing some other younger family members in the extended family become absolute pieces of shit as they enter adulthood (lazy, no ambition to get a good job, sit at home on their phones all day, hang out and just do drugs constantly) despite coming from relatively stable middle-class homes and no real traumatic issues has me seriously considering if it’s worth pouring myself into children only for them to end up as human lay-abouts who parasite off of my hard work (honestly seems like a 50/50 chance based off of my extended family). My wife’s only sister is also a horrendous mentally-ill psychopath who is addicted to drugs and hates the world for existing, lives on welfare, hates my wife’s parents for no reason despite them being decent, hard-working, and good people who gave them a good home and lots of love. You likely know this type of person, just human garbage. And all of this despite her parents giving them a good middle-class life in a good school district in suburban America (the easiest place in the world to grow up).
  5. Terrified of having a severely disabled (like non-verbal autism) child which seems like a tremendous ordeal for little reward.

All of that said, I love kids and wish I could share a lot of my interests and pass down traditions and see the world through new fresh eyes and have a family to give me meaning as I get older. But seeing how it often (seriously, a 50/50 shot in my extended family) turns out horrifically, I’m not sure it’s worth rolling the dice.

Can I solicit some feedback from mottizens on if you have kids, do you regret it, how is it working out?

Father of five, one of whom has significant special needs. I wrote about him here on DSL) and I think I touch on a number of your questions in that post.

@naraburns nailed it, in particular the discussion of how parenthood is transformative. Those of us on one side of the transition really can't explain it. I will note that it is very easy to imagine all of the ways in which being a parent is a drag and a bore and very difficult to picture how it will radically transform your life for the better.

To your points:

  1. Our respective families are similarly about 1,000 miles (or 1,400 miles) away. It's definitely hard and we treasure time with family as a result. Invest in babysitting early and often.

  2. This doesn't matter at all. People used to raise families in single-room cabins. Our first apartment (while I was doing graduate school and my wife was doing nursing school) was 640 sq. ft. Finances matter much, much less than people think. All of the horrifying news articles you see about how expensive it is to raise a family are fundamentally flawed. The financial hit is less important than radical shifts in the way you have to live your life ... which naraburns already spoke eloquently about. I've opined on this topic before.

  3. Your independence and free time will assuredly be sacrificed as a parent, but you'll be a better person after the tradeoff, I promise.

  4. Well, you have some influence in whether or not this happens -- Bryan Caplan says (correctly) in Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids that your children are pretty likely to turn out like you and your spouse, so if you want more people like you in the world ....

  5. See my link above. It is a tremendous ordeal. I cannot overstate how much of an ordeal it is. But it is also a tremendous opportunity to grow in virtue and, dare I say, a blessing and a gift ... although it took me many years to understand why.

I have no regrets. Have kids. Be a parent. The world needs good parents and good families. It's the greatest and most fulfilling adventure you can imagine (with the possible exception of marriage).

I always saw myself having kids but I’m not sure I can really commit to losing all of my independence and free time.

This seriously becomes less of an issue when you actually have the kid. A lot of the stuff that you spent that independence and free time on just naturally loses meaning - not all of its meaning, but definitely goes down on priority list.

I enjoy being a dad even though it's been horrible for my life by all measurable indicators. Free time, health, marriage, finances, everything's much worse now. I'd still do it again. @naraburns covers the details of it. You're not actually a real human being connected to the human world you seemingly inhabit until you've become a parent. My wife regrets it, but my wife also still clings to her pre-parent identity as a hedonist who exists to consume product and gratify herself for the rest of her life.

1 I have family nearby but the relationship between them and my wife is not great. My mother in particular is kind of insane. Her family is in a state that’s about a 10-hour drive away.

Not having a grandma on standby will be a problem, and you will have it noticeably harder than parents who do. But you have money, so you can hire help or make do by working less.

2 [Housing]

Stop worrying. A baby doesn't need a big house. Having an extra room won't be an advantage at all until the child is a few years older.

3 I always saw myself having kids but I’m not sure I can really commit to losing all of my independence and free time. I tend to need a lot of down time from my job and I don’t know if I can handle being always “on” with a kid in the mix.

You can. Or rather, the person you will become under greater pressure can. The more years you've spent independent, without constant responsibility for others, with lots of free time in which to do as you please, the harder the adjustment will be, but you will sweat out a lot of inefficiencies and time-wasting behavior, you will shed many of your lowest priorities, and it will work out. You are not a delicate flower, or a creature made for leisure. To lean on the evo-psych armchair, something like that would never have survived.

4 [Risk of Faiilure]

Yeah, this might be a problem. It's always a gamble how kids turn out, and having bad genetics or a family history of problems doesn't help the odds. That said, it's your job to learn from the mistakes of your forebears. What could they have done to not screw up your relatives? What would you have done in their shoes? You will raise zero kids better than they did if you don't have any.

5 Terrified of having a severely disabled (like non-verbal autism) child which seems like a tremendous ordeal for little reward.

It might happen. It's unlikely. Everything in life is a gamble, but the odds are in your favor here. I know several families who have dealt with this kind of issue, and they all took massive damage over it, no matter how much of a smile they put on, and I wish there were some way to, to put it crassly, put such kids out of everyone's misery. But somehow the parents themselves seem not to think that way. Even that can be dealt with. But again, to repeat, it's unlikely.

Stop worrying. A baby doesn't need a big house. Having an extra room won't be an advantage at all until the child is a few years older.

It is actually an advantage if the grandparents are willing to stay and help with the baby

If you're going into it with the mindset of "they better not be parasites" then probably don't. Don't expect gratitude or repayment because they never got to agree to that deal.

Also worth considering that if those kids ended up human layabouts, then despite "no traumatic issues" their parents must have done something wrong.

FWIW I have seen several human parasite layabouts turn out to be somewhat adequate parents themselves when push came to shove. Certainly far from par, but not exactly abject failure either. Not something to be proud of as a progenitor, but at least they give the next generation after them a chance to do better.

Can you explain what exactly a fake email job is? Sometimes I worry I have one lol.

This may help.

Ok yeah no, I bring in millions for my company pretty directly every year. Jesus I didn't realize how fake some of these jobs were... absolutely absurd.

I bring in millions for my company pretty directly every year.

What do you do?

@naraburns said pretty much everything I would say, only he said it more eloquently and in more detail. My sons are 13 and 15. My wife was 26 when she had our first, and I was a few years shy of forty. I have heard guys say they'd never have kids if they were too old for fear they couldn't throw the ball around with their sons. To that, I say pick up some goddam weights or go for a jog. It's fine. I also noted, as did nara, that your wife may lean toward No but at the same time extenuating circumstances may be what's contributing to that. Not some fundamental unwillingness to be a mother. Though of course you know best.

I would also suggest the timing is never perfect (true of most anything.)

Many women and girls get pregnant by "accident" and don't want the child, or the dad bails, etc. etc. Of the universe of couples who could have children perhaps you two are of the lot who should be having them.

My children are the absolute best thing I've ever done (with help). I can't tell you what to do, but I can say that.

I think you shouldn't have kids unless you are both at least tentatively in the "yes" camp, personally. It's a big commitment which requires a shitload of sacrifice. If your wife is leaning towards "no" at the moment, is she going to be able to embrace the freedom she will have to give up to have those children? It seems to me like it'll be a lot harder for her.

My wife and I don't have children (and can't, as she had to have a hysterectomy a couple of years ago). I do not personally have any regrets. I think that children are a burden, not a blessing, and I am grateful that we don't have that weighing our lives down. I have two nephews (whom I love a great deal), and they scratch the paternal itch pretty well for me. We may come to regret it as we reach old age and have nobody around for us, although to be honest I don't really imagine I will live that long so the point may be moot. But for now, no regrets at all.

To take this a step back, my wife and I are constantly confused by the married couples who got married without being on the same page beforehand. I understand that things can change (especially from a no to a maybe to a yes).

But watching people start their lives together with a 'we'll see what happens' or even worse (which we've seen) - agree to disagree, is maddeningly self-inflicted strife.

I think you shouldn't have kids unless you are both at least tentatively in the "yes" camp, personally. It's a big commitment which requires a shitload of sacrifice. If your wife is leaning towards "no" at the moment, is she going to be able to embrace the freedom she will have to give up to have those children? It seems to me like it'll be a lot harder for her.

Exactly this. I've seen too many marriages and relationships fall apart on the divided question of children.

Can I solicit some feedback from mottizens on if you have kids, do you regret it, how is it working out?

My children are grown. I have no regrets. I am proud of how they turned out. I do sometimes experience disappointment in them, too, but mostly in a self-recriminating way. "If I had only known then what I know now I could have been a better parent"--true, but I would not know what I know now if I had not been a clumsy parent then. I do not know where the quote comes from, but I find it to be accurate:

When you're a kid, you don't realize you're also watching your parents grow up.

So I watched JD Vance's "cat ladies" tempest in a teapot with some amusement. It was not well put, but I think he was broadly correct. People who don't raise children never really become adults, in the sense of being robustly full members of a community that existed before them, and will persist when they are gone. They simply do not, and likely cannot, value the world in the same way. Now, probably some people who do raise children also never really become adults in this sense; there are no guarantees! But people who never raise children, whether by chance or by choice, are different from people who raise children. There is a shift in perspective that cannot be replicated through mere exposure to the relevant ideas. One must have the experience.

The difference is perhaps best captured in Bertrand Russell's "knowledge by description" and "knowledge by acquaintance." L.A. Paul explores this with specific reference to parenting in Transformative Experience. The book is not long but even so it is a bit padded. The basic thesis is this: you can't really know what it's like to be a parent, until you have kids. (Paul also uses the example of becoming a vampire!) Consequently, you can't decide to have kids based on what you think having kids would be like for the person who you currently are, because the experience will transform you into a different kind of person, and you can't know in advance whether having kids will be good for that person. Rather, you can only ask yourself whether you value the possibility of transformation.

I have seen such transformations play out in ways large and small. Parents of disabled children are routinely subjected to harrowing difficulties, and yet they are often some of the most humble, charitable, pro-social people you could ever wish to meet. It would be strange indeed if nature only gave disabilities to the children of people who were already amazingly virtuous! So I can only conclude that while these people would not have chosen to have a disabled child, it is nevertheless a worthwhile transformation to court.

More specifically, why do you lean toward "yes?" Why does your wife lean toward "no?" In most cultures, your wife will bear most of the opportunity costs, but it sounds from your post like her objection is really just "want a bigger house." How big? I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I would descriptively call that a "shallow" objection; it's a 100% solvable problem if you want it enough to prioritize it over other things. Plus, babies don't care how big your house is. This, basically.

All of your concerns meet similar responses. What if your kids are lazy? Well--what if they're not? What if your kids are crazy? Well--what if they're not? The risks of parenting are real, but so are the rewards. All you can do is decide whether you are ready and willing to undertake the transformation (with the additional caveat that the transformation will be different if you wait--the best time for a woman to have babies is in her 20s, maybe 30s, and hesitation will only increase the eventuality of the risks with which you are specifically concerned).

There are probably some specific situations in which people should choose to not raise children, but those people should also understand that there are some perspectives and emotions that this really will close off to them. This does not make the childless less human, but it does give them less exposure to the totality of the human experience. Some people who have children "fail" to grow in these ways, or through no fault of their own (or perhaps fault of their own!) produce regrettable offspring. There is no cosmic scale on which you can weigh your possible futures in advance! All you and your wife can decide is whether you collectively regard the project of raising children as intrinsically worthy, regardless of how it turns out. In my experience, it definitely is! But of course: your mileage may vary.

I don't think we should be assigned disabled children to improve our character. I think parents of disabled kids are probaly nice for the same reason fat people or disabled people often are. They have to be or no one will help them.

I'm pro kids, but not for improving your own character. I know plenty of selfish terrible parents. It doesn't see to cure any character defects that I've ever witnessed, I've certainly seen adding kids to the picture make it worse.

I don't think we should be assigned disabled children to improve our character.

Nor do I, nor does anyone I know.

I think parents of disabled kids are probaly nice for the same reason fat people or disabled people often are. They have to be or no one will help them.

And while that is bad in various ways, it is possible to notice the tradeoffs, no?

I'm pro kids, but not for improving your own character. I know plenty of selfish terrible parents. It doesn't see to cure any character defects that I've ever witnessed, I've certainly seen adding kids to the picture make it worse.

You seem to have missed all the parts of my comment where I already accounted for that. It's true: having kids won't necessarily make you a better person! But having children, even healthy ones, has a way of confronting us with our own limitations, and expanding our circle of concern beyond our own immediate desires in a very non-hypothetical way. If you have never seen a selfish woman become "selfish" on behalf of her children instead, or a disinterested father become a doting father at the first sight of his child, then you simply can't have observed very many parents in your life. It's a cliche for a reason: having kids really can change you.

But as I said several times: it's not guaranteed, which is why the choice to become a parent has to be grounded in the possibility and pursuit of a worthwhile transformation, rather than in the certainty of any particular [whatever].

I have kids and feel like they are the best decision of my life.

I would say that you should prepare as much as you reasonably can beforehand if you don't expect to get any support. Alternatively, is it at all possible to move closer to your wife's family if they're nice and supportive? Would that solve the house situation as well maybe? Is the lack of support that makes your wife apprehensive?

Have kids. I have a severely disabled (like non-verbal autism) child, and I still think it's worth it.

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