site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   2988 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for August 25, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

1
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I've been taking driving lessons recently in my late 30s (never bothered to before as I lived in the city) and I'm surprised by how it drains me. It's not anxiety, I'm not nervous about driving. There's nothing different about me before I go to a class. But I feel extremely tired after a 1 hour driving class, almost as if I'm sick, my brain get foggy. My current theory is that driving being an unfamiliar and potentially deadly activity my brain goes in an hyperfocused state that is extremely tiring to maintain for an hour. If that's the case I imagine it will get better as my degree of familiarity improves?

Did anyone else here have that experience of extreme tiredness for an only moderately long driving session? Did it improve? Were you a teen or an adult when you learned? I'm wondering if maybe teen brains get used to it faster.

I started driving at about 15, the normal age for it in the US. IMO it still is much more tiring than the amount of time and the actual physical activity would suggest. I'm not really sure about improvement - it probably has somewhat, but the extra mental strain is still there.

I do still like to stop every few hours when driving longer distances. Partly from mental strain, partly from the physical part of stretching and moving around. Also for bathroom, snacks, food, gas, etc.

driver since 1991 I've driven in almost every US state and Canada, and many places in Europe. I've been a passenger in the Mid-east and various countries in Asia. I've driven cars, vans and trucks up to 22' with the military. I've towed trailers and driven professionally as a service call technician. I've probably wasted a third of my life in cars.

#1 Driving sucks and it's gotten worse. There's more worse traffic than 30 years ago. Way more distracted driving, more congestion, more bicycles, more motorcycles, more semis. Some significant portion of traffic are lost gig drivers. In Europe, my experience on the highways is that they are mostly fine, but back roads can be tiny and terrifying when large vehicles--which were not really a thing in Europe back in the day--come barreling toward you. The middle East (UAE, Jordan) is the absolute most insane driving I've ever seen. Thailand is crazy because entire families will be hanging out on a moped doing 60 down the highway in a rainstorm.

#2 You're definitely tired and exhausted from being on full alert the entire time you're operating a vehicle. You have to maintain 360 degree, above and below awareness of your vehicle moving at deadly speeds through space and time. You're looking out for yourself, for other vehicles and for the comfort and safety of your passengers. It's a serious thing that requires full attention and nothing will wear you down faster than pumping road stress blood into your brain.

#3 It takes years of driving experience to 'figure it out' and have a feel for where people are going and who the shits are that need to be avoided at all costs. People drive like they walk, so you you have to constantly assume they do not know you are behind or next to them and presume they might stop at any second. Eventually you will notice that people lead with their bodies and they do this in cars as well. You get a 6th sense that someone is going to change lanes or do u-turns. It's definitely one of those 10k hours things. The only solution is lots of driving experience, so take some road trips. :)

#4 The best drivers are motorcyclists. Stay out of their way.

#5 Everyone is a bad driver >1% of the time.

Tips Make sure you set your mirrors right. Do not drive next to semis. Speed past them if you have to. Be careful when cresting a hill--something might be jsut on the other side out of sight. Always let aggressive drivers pass you and try to remember to stay toward the right on busy streets. Always optimize fore safety over convenience and even the law. Know where you're going before you leave. Learn to ride a motorcycle. Remember people can't see your turn signal if you have you hazards on. Two hands on the wheel!!! :)

I also learned to drive recently, in my 30s. I also found lessons really exhausting, but I totally chalked it up to nerves. Not that I was panicked or fearful, but driving takes a lot of focus and concentration, as well as multitasking and anticipation. With lessons that is even more true. You're paying attention to the road, to the car, to other drivers, and to the instructor, all while learning and doing new things.

Now that I've had my liscence for two years, it is a lot less exhausting. I can easily drive for many hours. A lot of things that you have to actively focus on while you are learning become second nature.

I learned to drive when I was 15 to 17 and didn't experience anything like this at all. I think you're just way past the optimal age to learn to drive. Not to discourage you, but I have a few friends who learned to drive in their mid-20's and they're terrible drivers. I think 30 is about the age where it starts to become really hard to learn anything new, and I read a study once that the teens are the optimal age to learn the specific skills involved in driving. I'm in my mid-30's and I've noticed that, whereas learning new skills was a joy when I was 20, now it's kind of painful and tedious.

My only formal experiences as a student taught driving were our weekly Driver's Ed classes that in I think sophomore high school. I remember the football coaches (for some reason) were the teachers--I wonder if they got paid extra for that? We had these machines you sat in and turned wheels and stared at video screens and worked the foot pedals. But mostly it was a dry-as-a-bone watching videos of re-enactments and remembering the rules of the road. In these videos you'd be on some residential street and suddenly a ball would fly out into the road. What, what do you do? This would have been around 1982 or 3.

When I had to drive on an actual road for the first time I was around 15, which is the age at which you could get a driver's permit (meaning an adult had to be with you in the car. I don't know if this is still the case.) We only ever had manual transmissions in our cars at home so I had to learn to work the gears and clutch, and there was a lot of herky jerky. Once I can clearly recall my dad, my brother and I driving to my grandfather's house, which was then about 15 miles away. My dad getting out of the car, me getting out, circling around from the passenger to the driver's seat. When we hit 55 it was the fastest I had ever driven, but this was a slow speed for other drivers and people were overtaking me and I had slower people in front and I had a moment of near-panic. I remember my dad telling me to man-up, though he did not use those words. "BUT I'VE NEVER DRIVEN THIS FAST!" I said. His response: "Well then I guess we're all going to die."

I will never forget those words, and what I guess was the resignation borne of frustration with which he said them. Anyway whether I in fact man'd up or not I don't know, but we did survive, got to the house, and I suppose I kept driving. Years later when I drove automatic it was like driving a bumper car at the fair--so easy as to be bizarre. And to my way of thinking offers much less control, though with the way cars are automated now I suppose controlling the car yourself is seen as quaint.

All this to say I recall the moments of panic, if not enervation. I never did driving school, though. And when I got to Japan and my international license ran out and I had to take the course test, I failed a total of five times. Bastards. I think this is because I was taking manual (what they call "mission") and the obscure Japanese rules for this regarding hand positions were unknown to me (Japanese people pay upwards of 4K to take driving lessons at driving schools, which teach these esoteric rules so people will pass the tests. It's a racket.) When I gave in and took the automatic test (by then my wife and I had an automatic anyway at home) the rater guy looked at me at the end and said "Where'd you learn to drive so well?" My father's words came back to me, but I just said "From my wife," which seemed to satisfy him.

I think this is because I was taking manual (what they call "mission") and the obscure Japanese rules for this regarding hand positions were unknown to me...

Now I'm curious. What are these rules? It seems like it's pretty unnecessary to micromanage that behavior, so I'm kind of surprised.

Micromanaging is I believe a way, along with car costs, driving school costs, and periodic car check-ups (called shahken) to thin out the road herd. It's already pretty congested even though public transportation is excellent.

I don't actually know all the fine points but I know I wasn't supposed to keep my hand on the gear shift as much as I did.

This is established MT lore in the west as well -- resting your hand on the shifter when you aren't using it can accelerate wear on the synchronizer rings and shift linkage parts. (or the gears themselves if you want to go back to, like, 50s lore or heavy trucks)

I did once replace the shift dog assembly on my dad's truck due to it wearing out rendering 1-2 gears inaccessible -- luckily you could get it from the top. Not sure whether this was driver habits (I don't think my dad or I lean on the shifter, but previous owner is a possibility) or shitty Ford engineering, but it did happen. Unclear why the government should care, but they do like things to be done properly in Japan I suppose?

They do indeed. TIL.

Might be worth distinguishing between nerves and stress. Driving is stressful in both obvious and surprising ways.

I never understood road rage until I caught myself cussing out my dad in the passenger seat. It was like my conscious brain had stepped back a couple inches into my skull. Rational thought just wasn’t involved. Incredibly unsettling.

Something about the stimuli triggers weird parts of our psychology. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re experiencing an adrenaline crash after a session, even if you’re never consciously framing it that way. The normal patterns don’t apply.

My Japanese wife once was cut off by a woman in another car and I heard my wife scream "CUNT!" This had never happened before and hasn't happened since. Road rage is interesting.

You're brain hasn't been trained to automatically read the road and the environment to pick out what's important. You're actively evaluating everything on the road because it's a new experience and your automatic systems don't know how to handle things.

Long term drivers just cruise around on autopilot. You need to drive more to establish a baseline of what's normal on the roads in your area.

My best advice is to make sure your first car is something that would be described as an "old lady car". You can wobble a bit in your lane and everyone will give you plenty of space. If you start off with a BMW everyone will assume you're an aggressive asshole driver and won't let you in.

The first time I drove on a public road was driving home from right after getting my licence. I was going very slowly (maybe 20 or 30 km/h in a 50 km/h) at first as a I pulled out of the parking lot and approached a red light. The driver behind me blared his horn for a full second or two before rushing around me.

Shit, I learned in a Toyota Sequoia. It didn’t earn me any charity, but at least the visibility was good.

I learned driving at age 19 and felt the same about it for the longest time. It took moving to the US and being broken in by a few ill-advised road trips where I had the choice between driving for 9 hours straight after over a day awake and putting up with a logistical nightmare of missed appointments and late returns, as the other would-be drivers refused to do their part; after doing that I acquired the ability to drive on autopilot/do the "where did the past 2 hours go" thing that car commuters are known for.

Learning new things is, partially, a young person's game. It takes more effort to do it later. It'll get easier as the skills become autopiloted in you. Also, drive an automatic, not a manual.

Did anyone else here have that experience of extreme tiredness for an only moderately long driving session?

Driving lessons were pretty taxing even if the instructors weren't utter shits (very common in a profession with no repeat business), but no, I don't remember being that tired.

Something similar: I was used to sleeping in cars and for a good while after learning to drive I'd immediately get extremely drowsy while driving, as if I'd just taken a big amount of sleeping pills etc.

Are you driving a manual tramission? I found that pretty fatiguing driving in the city after having them in the rural country for many years.

I remember feeling like that when I was learning as a teenager. My lessons were two hours long but after 1.5 hours I really struggled to concentrate.

The more you drive, the easier it gets. Especially with modern assistance (sat nav, automatic gearbox, cruise control etc). Once you pass your test and start driving regularly, your driving stamina will increase a lot.

Your experience is similar to mine. I got my driver's license at 18, but I have been driving regularly since I bought my first car three years ago. At first I was extremely hyperfocused while driving, in an entirely different state of mind. And yes, I was exhausted after a longer ride (3-4 hours). As I grew accustomed to driving, the rush decreased in intensity but the feeling is still a bit different and quite enjoyable. Though I have to admit that I like driving, especially during long rides. I'm in my early thirties.

I'm actually somewhat inverted in that I used to struggle with focus in driving when I was young. I think it's easier for me now because I'm more acutely aware of risk and also have the benefit of interesting podcasts to keep me from drifting as far into fatigue.

On the flip side, my Garmin says that my stress level goes up substantially while I'm driving. This is true even if my subjective experience is of having a relaxing afternoon with my wife. The change in heart rate variability is a measurably physiologic indicator of the fact that driving is taking something out of me even if I don't feel like it on a moment-to-moment basis.

I generally don't drive far at night anymore. My night vision isn't as good as when I was young and my state has terrible illumination and even worse road paint. The state is so bad at this that I thought my vision had deteriorated much worse than it actually has... until I crossed a state line and was promptly fine.

It seems to me that there is a developmental window for learning potentially hazardous adulting skills which opens in early adolescence and closes in your very late teens or very early twenties.

In the environment of evolutionary adaptedness this is stuff like learning to identify poisonous mushrooms from edible ones; today driving is the main example. I didn’t have that experience, but it seems extremely common with adults learning to drive.

I used to not have that but got it as I grew older. FWIW I've been driving moderate amounts since I was 18, and now in my mid-thirties I notice myself becoming very sleepy at the wheel whenever the drives grow long or the hours late. I can manage 1000km in a day just fine, mechanically, but man do I feel it. Driving at night ditto. It takes constant effort to keep my eyes open.

Maybe I would get to that point if I kept driving longer, but what I'm describing seems like the opposite of that. I am not in any way sleepy or tired while driving, but after I feel a sort of crash, as if my brain had to tap into some emergency reserves to keep itself in that state of focus for an hour.

I saw the difference, but it may still be related - my theory there would be that we both tap into the same reserves, but your shorter drives don't fully deplete them.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats