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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   3590 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for July 14, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Long time lurker, first time poster with a general life question here.

My current situation is as follows: I've recently finished graduate school (in social sciences) and landed a research-adjacent position at a large organization. So far I've found myself fitting in quite well in terms of professional skills, but it's been an uphill battle socially.

The problem, to put it bluntly, is that I'm basically a walking stereotype of a weeaboo neckbeard with specific nerdy interests, who was suddenly thrust into a milieu of reasonably high-IQ, well-educated if somewhat snobbish upper-middle class background normies, who are well-versed in highbrow and middlebrow culture, and expect their interlocutors to be at the same level of general cultural awareness. I knew people like these in college and avoided them like the plague (didn't have anything against them, but we didn't exactly jive), however it no longer seems to be an option, as I realize that if I stick with my field, I'll be looking at working alongside people like these for the next 30 years, give or take, and I would prefer for this experience to be more pleasant and not feel like a perpetual outsider. Not to mention that I'd probably need to fit in culturally in order to eventually move up the ladder.

As for my own level of general cultural awareness, it is abysmally low, which makes communication very embarassing at times. I'd be able to discuss at length untranslated Japanese visual novels, Magic the Gathering meta, Super Mario 64 speedrun strats, Nijisanji vtubers or obscure internet trivia, but I managed to walk around God's green Earth for ~30 years without ever having watched Titanic, becoming able to recognize more than two songs from the Beatles or learning a single verse of poetry by heart. I want to fix that, and I'm willing to spend my commutes and several evenings a week on this project, even if the task at hand seems quite daunting. I''ve made peace with the fact that I'll probably never be a literati, but I want to be at least functional in such social settings.

However, because the gaping hole in my knowledge is so massive, I don't even know where to begin. Do I divide things up into subprojects like "Movies", "Music", "Literature", etc. with their own schedules and goals? (E.g. "Movies project – knock out 2 movies from imdb top 250 a week for a year before moving on to more obscure stuff".) Is there a smarter way to go about it?

Not caring and keeping to myself at work is not an option.

tl;dr version: adult nerd with very little cultural knowledge wants to fill in that gap (speedrun it, if possible) and become pleasant enough company in educated upper middle class non-STEM milieu. What would be the best way to achieve that?

I'm sorry brother, you lost me at nijisanji.

But I think you're overthinking this. Most of these people don't want to seriously engage with any of these things in an earnest/autistic way.
You only need to read the spark notes and what the "media literacy" take on Twitter is. For God's sake don't have any original thoughts!

I'm sorry brother, you lost me at nijisanji.

That's fair. If it makes it any better, I mostly watch the JP branch (Shirayuki Tomoe, Yumeoi Kakeru) and steer clear of EN. To be frank, I just don't think HoloJP is all that entertaining due to inherent limitations of what an idol is expected to do and say. Granted, while JP Nijis can generally handle that degree of freedom, in EN it quickly turns into "e-girls with an avatar" shitshow.

Nah, I'm just messing with you. I listen to shondo, marimari underscore EN, pippa and worse, absolutely zero high ground to criticize anyone.

It's hard to quiet the voice in the back of your mind yelling "these are just 2d e-girls, what are you doing?"

I feel like the people you describe tend to fake it a lot. It's almost a cliche, they talk about books a lot but hardly ever actually read them. I doubt they're spending a lot of time listening to classical music or watching art films, either. Unless they're really into it, in which case you're not going to fool them by "speedrunning" it, it's going to be glaringly obvious. But there's enough other people just faking it that you wouldn't really stand out either.

Also:

Nijisanji vtubers

Do you watch the JP branch or are you still watching Kurosanji?

Do you watch the JP branch or are you still watching Kurosanji?

JP-only pretty much. Sometimes I look up what the EN branch is up to, like a rubbernecker stopping to gawk at a train wreck.

People don't care about poetry. Not sure what's best literature-wise. The bible, I assume, would be among the highest value things.

Is sports a thing at all? I'd generally imagine sports, movies, and politics are the easier things to engage in, if you just want things to talk about, but the last of those requires care. I personally like watching (American) football.

Maybe also it might be valuable to try not to come across as an anime nerd, if you're at risk of that.

Yep, I try to hide my power level and pretend to be a plain, inoffensive sort of dude. Sports is not that popular in my circles. The culture at my workplace is, for a lack of better word, quite feminine, and even men tend to balk at "sportsball". Ironically for a nerd, I used to be quite into soccer, but I've fallen out of the habit of watching soccer matches on my days off some 5-7 years ago.

Maybe don't try to force yourself to be "widely cultured", but lean in on specific interests hyperfocus instead. Try to find a thing or three that are not stereotypically low status nerd culture, but also obscure enough that you're not likely to run into anyone else being into this specific thing. Like medieval Chinese painting, Roman poetry or political theology in the Byzantine Empire. Poke around anything older than 50-100 years and then when something looks interesting, just dive all in on the rabbithole of that specific thing. The plan is to come off as more of a foreigner of the same social class, you're not quite versed in the same stuff everyone else is but still giving the roughly correct vibe, rather than an easily pigeonholeable weeb pleb. If you can find some specific thing with good cultural valences you can get yourself to be genuinely interested in, that's going to be a huge force multiplier with actually getting deep enough in the thing for it to do some good.

Thanks, that's genuinely helpful! I generally enjoy reading about history, so I'm sure I'll be able to find something of the sort.

I'd be able to discuss at length [...] Magic the Gathering meta

So, what's your opinion on Nadu?

Haven't been keeping very up to date with competitive MtG lately (I've gotten into Legends of Runeterra last year, which is roughly everything I like about Magic stripped of a lot of the annoying parts), but I generally dislike cards that warp the meta around itself and make you play either decks with it or decks, that reliably beat it. I enjoy diverse metas with a lot of options quite a bit more. While I don't think Nadu is as game-breaking as many people seem to suggest (high T1, maybe T0.5, but nowhere near a true tier 0 like Hogaak), I haven't seen much of it.

Pushed.

The problem, to put it bluntly, is that you want the cool kids to like you and you are worried that they won't.

First of all, I think your endeavor will most likely fail for achieving its intended purpose. There are very few genuine shared cultural touchstones left; most of what served that purpose has long since been deconstructed or gatekept to exclude people they don't want there.

Second, try and seek out other cultural artifacts for the joy of it, not because it will make you more palatable to your colleagues. Passion is obvious to someone who is genuinely observing, and a faker is more cringe than someone who is genuinely ignorant. Read widely. Experience more. Go outside your comfort zone. Look at the things you enjoy and learn about them, not as a consumer, but as a producer, a businessperson, a creator. How is something done and what makes it possible? What are these philosophies, where do they come from, and who and what contexts produced them? What do you get out of it and what can you learn about it?

Third, find scotch people, not bourbon people. Scotch people, especially guys, will be happy to talk at length about what they like and are willing to try and share widely for the joy of it. Bourbon people like their one thing; if there is nothing to be gained from associating with you they will avoid discussing what they like to prevent any chance of them getting less of what they like.

I do not have a high opinion of the "rat community", insofar as it exists, on the internet. However, they are a treasure trove of obscure facts and anecdotes by people who at least attempt, or pretend, to question their own thinking. Read the quality contributions, pay attention when someone with more domain-specific knowledge is sharing their thoughts. There's no shortage of guys willing to talk shit about anything from the Roman Empire to construction projects and zoning laws.

Finally, more importantly than anything else, recognize that your interests and likes are not your identity. People who wear their interests like clothes are are not to be trusted; they are either defined by a company's marketing or a desire to be part of a social group. They are as dust, blown which way the wind takes them.

What makes you think they care about poetry? I can’t remember the last time I came across someone who actually cared about poetry

Might be a difference in the cultural context – I reside in a European country, and the local intelligentsia still cares quite a bit about poetry and literature more broadly. I did hear that the US is pretty different in that regard though.

Because to opine on poetry, specifically as a man, is seen as either insufferably conceited, effete, or both.

One choice retort I had up my sleeve the other day to respond to another Mottizen, was :"You will never be a poet." I thought it was a rather good comeback, but then realized it would probably be taken as a compliment.

I actually gave some thought to this and literally the last person I remember who cared about poetry was an insufferably conceited gay man. So yeah

I'm probably one of those, I'll leave it to the audience to guess which.

First off, I don't think there is any viable way to fake or half-ass this. But it's part of growing up IMO to develop the ability to fit in in multiple different types of social groups. You can learn to fit in with this new crowd, but you'll want to make sure you maintain a group of friends, preferably IRL, that you can talk about the things you actually like and find interesting with.

IME, most people are quite happy to share their sources of cultural references with a less-knowledgeable newbie. So whenever you hear a reference to something you don't know, ask. Not necessarily at the time you hear it, if not appropriate, but later. Then follow up and read, watch, or listen to whatever they suggest. Keep an eye on the things people around you read, watch, listen to, and copy them. If you already have an impression that you ought to know some piece of media, then do it - go ahead and watch Titanic, and get a recording of the top 20 or so Beatles songs and listen to them a dozen or so times. Don't make a big deal about any particular thing, just keep consuming and let it all soak in. This should hopefully provide enough sources of things to consume to occupy all the time you're willing to spend. You'll have to accept that you're not going to be the coolest guy around in this crowd for a while, but that's okay. You're going to have to keep your mouth shut and listen a lot, and often let references you don't get yet just float on by.

If it all feels weird or discouraging, know that you probably aren't the only one doing this, very possibly including in your current work social group. If you're faking it to some extent, you're not the only one.

To speedrun classic literature, go to the library and check out all the Wishbone books. Then if you like a particular story, you can actually read the original. If you don’t like any of them, at least you’ll know the basic plot line and should pick up on most references. For poetry, find an anthology of famous poems (or snag a list from the Internet) and read one or two per day for three months. Odds are you’ll probably find at least some you like. Rudyard Kipling seems to be popular among many rationalist-adjacent folks, so you might start with him. If you find that you really can’t stand any poetry at all, try reading them aloud. A lot of poems are just better that way. You can also usually find good recordings on YouTube. Both James Earl Jones and Christopher Lee have pretty decent recordings of Poe’s The Raven, for example. If there’s a poem you like well enough to memorize, print it out and read it out loud every night before you go to bed. As long as the poem isn’t Paradise Lost or something ridiculously long like that, you should have it memorized in no time. The routine will also probably help you fall asleep easier, in case you happen to have any trouble with that.

For movies, I’d suggest you keep a list of movie references that people around you make, and then just watch those. You should catch up to speed relatively quickly. Don’t watch all the top 100 films of all time or anything like that. Very few people have actually seen all of them, so you’d be wasting a lot of time.

I would guess that music is probably the least referenced, partly because there’s a relatively small number of universally-known songs. Person A might have grown up on the Beatles, but Person B grew up on Frank Sinatra, Person C on ACDC, Person D on Beethoven, and Persons E through G on jazz, hip hop, and pop, respectively. That said, if you have the time and don’t mind the bother, it wouldn’t hurt to listen once or twice to the top ten songs of each decade from 1950 to the present. Songs are short, and you can do it on your commute. If your coworkers are people of fine breeding and good taste, and they listen to classical music, find a Music Appreciation CD set, and just listen to the songs from the Baroque and Romantic periods. A Music Appreciation CD will only play short excerpts from the longer pieces, which should save you some time. Or just find a “Classical music you know but don’t know the name of” video on YouTube. Watch a few of those, while paying attention to who the composers are, and you should be set.

One final piece of advice: visit an art museum or two, if nothing else to say that you’ve been. New York, D.C., Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and other major cities have good collections. Pick whichever one is closest to you, spend a day there, and memorize the names and artists’ names of two or three pieces that you particularly like. Then if the subject ever comes up, you can add your two cents and raise your cultural standing.

Titanic, Beatles, poetry

They probably don’t care that you don’t know about these things.

You’re probably imagining that this is a bigger deal than it actually is.

Figure out what sources of media they consume daily and try to follow the same sources. If they get their information from social media find some of the people they follow, or what podcasts they listen to. Eventually, you will pick up on the some of the common references/background culture. I find most people are highly likely to be interested in currently trending events. If they reference an older piece of culture it is often somehow connected to a current event.

I will caution you that trying to force yourself to fit into social settings in this manner may lead to burnout and mental health problems. If you learn to enjoy doing it than that is great, but if it feels like a forced social performance that you hate doing then it may cause problems in the future.

Another option that might be available to you is telling people that you suspect that you are on the autism spectrum/neurodivergent. This may lower what they expect of you in social situations. It shifts the framing from you are having trouble fitting in because you haven’t put in sufficient effort to you are having trouble fitting because the neurotypical norms cause you mental distress/burdens/anxiety and your disability prevents you from substantially changing this.

People are usually accommodating and don’t ask a lot of follow-up questions. If they do just being familiar with autistic masking, autistic burnout, and special interests will probably be sufficient to answer any questions they have.

I don't think people so much react badly to alternative upbringings and backgrounds, as they do to attempts to "speedrun" their culture. Consider participating some events -- a concert, a hike, whatever kind of thing your colleagues seem to enjoy.

It's useful to read some stuff (for historical things, I recommend the Saint John's Reading List), listen to some stuff, subscribe to the New Yorker or something -- but most especially, it's useful to be genuinely interested, ask questions, and follow up on those questions by actually engaging with the cultural artifacts presented.

If someone enjoys the Beetles, they would probably be pleased if you listen to some albums on your commute, and come back with "I listened to some albums, and enjoyed [this song, or this quality]." Or even "I listened to some albums, and don't really get it, could you help me understand the appeal?" This is an opening for them to share something they like, which people enjoy doing. They would likely not be very happy if you listened to an audiobook about The Beetles Phenomenon, and proceeded to act like a know it all about it. If they are a woman, "mansplaining" might enter their mind at some point.

I'd be able to discuss at length untranslated Japanese visual novels, Magic the Gathering meta, Super Mario 64 speedrun strats, Nijisanji vtubers

Conversely, this description of your own interests presents, to an outsider, a brick wall, erected to keep them out, and perhaps a bit of embarrassment about what's inside. I assume this isn't actually how you describe your interests to your colleagues? This is actually how my brother describes his interests, and so I still have no idea what he's talking about most of the time, despite decades of polite questioning. This is bad.

I have some history and linguistic nerd friends, some of whom are more socially successful than others. The key is to focus on the relatable human side of things, not the deep rabbit hole side of things. This is why people who are not especially nerdy love things like the Inklings, or the bits of Kabalah in Unsung. There are probably things there that your colleagues would find interesting if they were presented as an interesting story you heard, or some bit of linguistics that's kind of neat.

There is something to be said for doing this the old fashioned way and reading a newspaper (say the WSJ, which is pretty centrist) cover-to-cover a couple times a week. This will include regular and business news, politics, opinions you can just steal, TV, movies, style, books, restaurant reviews, some general interest fluff articles on trends in social media, cooking, tech, real estate, language that people around you use etc. Sure, you’ll get the perspective of boomers on all these things, but if nothing else it’s a good place to start and you can start recognizing some of the names, ideas, products, whatever that people are talking about.

Yeah, the WSJ has a pretty good handle on the pulse of what upper-middle class people talk about, and provides sufficiently detailed generally non-offensive takes that you can pass for knowing at least something about topics when they come up in conversation. There was a time for me where easily 9/10 topics that came up in a weekly happy hour with work people were already discussed in that weeks Journal.

Their credulity when it came to the Max Deutsch v. Magnus Carlsen chess match significantly diminished how seriously I take their analysis, but you will at least have some idea of what people are talking about if you keep up with it.

Not caring and keeping to myself at work is not an option.

Amateur.

if I stick with my field, I'll be looking at working alongside people like these for the next 30 years, give or take

You could just work for significantly less than thirty years, rather than committing suicide by three decades of torture. If you're in the US, the federal Consumer Expenditure Survey can serve as a guide for budgeting. Just use the "cross-tabulated: size of consumer unit by income before taxes: one person: less than $15,000" column, and adjust for inflation and your actual expenses.

Not sure that is the best route for you.

I've seen this a thousand times and it's (almost)never about lacking specific knowledge about popular culture, the issue is that you think this is the issue. You're trying to engage in these subjects like a nerd would discussing his nerdy interests. People generally don't want to talk like that even about the things they are interested in.

What you need to do is learn how to engage in small talk, not study popular culture like there's an exam coming.

I honestly feel like theres something to be said for the old "did you see that ludicrous display last night?" strategy. I've also heard of, but never been able to find, old Victorian books that gave a surface level knowledge of many things - just enough to be involved in a conversation, but not a deep knowledge of anything (kind of like reading the first paragraph of a ton of wikipedia articles).

I suppose, but for that you just read the morning newspaper.

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