site banner
PaperclipPerfector  8mo ago (text post)   3469 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for March 10, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

2
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

How does one find purpose/meaning? That is, what gives you a "reason to get out of the bed in the morning"? Particularly when "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" seem particularly aimed your way.

(More specifically, with neither the usual standbys of "faith and family," and while being too anhedonic for hedonism?)

Edit: to put it more simply, how do I find a reason to keep struggling through another 30+ years of miserable, pointless, futile existence, rather than just skipping to the end?

One fun and cheap pastime is converting books from print or PDF to HTML+CSS (using Markdown as an intermediary if you don't care enough to learn HTML+CSS). Imagine Distributed Proofreading (the input for Project Gutenberg), but entirely on your own terms, modifying the original text to suit your personal preferences.

If you care about providing a meaningful service to other people, then making illegal high-quality digital versions of older works that (1) still are under copyright but (2) have not been made legally available in electronic form by their publishers (examples: 1 2 3) may fit that criterion.

Adderall works pretty well.

Do you know a bit of programming and a bit of higher math? Project Euler is not a permanent fix, but it certainly helped me in the depths of depression, and it may well be a step to something good.

Been looking for an answer to this question for the past 25 years... Seemingly, some people just have a raison d'être and others don't.

Jebus Capital,

I'm sorry you're going through this. Is there something I can do do help? Edit: Maybe that came across as condescending, it was really just concern. I hope you're feeling better today.

Is there something I can do do help?

Probably not.

If you're worried about life I can teach you how to live an enjoyable one.

I'm skeptical of this, particularly given that I'm probably older than you (I'm 42).

(As for connecting, I'm not on discord, and I don't think I want to be openly posting my phone number on the web.)

I blinked and my comment got eaten. TLDW find a practical project that puts work in your hands, not your head.

TLDW find a practical project that puts work in your hands, not your head.

These tend to be quite costly, particularly given the materials wasted in all the failures due to my lifelong fine motor skill issues.

Ah, I was going to suggest something small scale to reduce costs (electronics, crafts, etc) but motor issues rule that out. Gardening might have been a good substitute but if you live in an apartment in Alaska then that's probably not going to work either.

Still if you can think of something that suits your situation I think it can help with the "why get out of bed, what's the point" problem. Seeing something that makes physical progress, that you direct, that presents discrete problems to solve, and that you can point to whether to show other people or just to yourself provides hard evidence that you're making an impact on something. It also gives you a clear objective where upon completion you can make a judgement of whether you've succeeded, failed, or can improve. I think all those aspects are valuable to mental wellbeing and not half as legible in areas like religion/community, exercising, or creative-aesthetic-intellectual activities.

Edit: Reading more of your replies (not much money, government hand outs) maybe consider starting a cash-in-hand pressure washing business? The equipment is cheap enough to make it low risk and small scale, the work isn't fine skilled, you can earn some money, you leave things noticeably better for your efforts within minutes, you can work alone part-time or build it up into a legit business, and having seen a few pictures of Alaska it looks like all the slush makes everything constantly flithy meaning repeat business. Sure it's not a "higher" purpose but keeping things clean and getting paid is a positive sum contribution and should be sufficient for basic self/social esteem. If you're really savvy you don't even have to buy any equipment to start, just make some flyers and see if there's any interest before you lay out any cash.

maybe consider starting a cash-in-hand pressure washing business?

First, "Cash-in-hand" could end up being a violation of SSI rules (and SSI fraud can come with Federal prison time). Even if it isn't, there's still "welfare cliff" issues, where the reduction in benefits can offset much of, all of, or even exceed the money made working. Second, given that most look to be in the area of ~$900, that's well beyond my price range. (What part of "I'm dirt poor" is not coming through on my posts?) Third, how would I manage to transport it around on foot to potential jobsites, given that I doubt they'd let me take it on the bus with me. Fourth, it looks like I'd have a bunch of experienced competition in place already, while I've never used one before, and am not sure where I'd get the practice.

I think you're being overly cautious and perfect's-the-enemy-of-good but fair play, you've considered that suggestion and it doesn't work for you. All I'd say is that for any bootstraps enterprise to work you're better thinking of it like a penniless illegal immigrant would approach it, ie bending the rules, delay spending until you've got the work assured, bargain hunting for materials, and starting with the small jobs no one else wants.

Magic man repairs, maybe? That looks like a basic/niche kit could fit in a backpack, there's no end of broken shit for free you can take home to practice on and then throw out again, and people pay top dollar to avoid redoing expensive work. Just an idea.

My underlying point was that identifying practical issues and potentially overcoming them to achieve a material result is more productive and stimulating than reading a book, writing a song, lifting some weights or listening to a preacher. It's about finding something external to focus on that you can effect a direct meaningful change upon. Admittedly that's a lot harder if you need it to be profitable but it's potentially more rewarding too. Chin up.

Magic man repairs, maybe?

My Dad did building maintenance from before I was born up until he retired a couple years ago, so I'm familiar with what it entails… and why I'd not be much good at it. Not enough to compete.

It's about finding something external to focus on that you can effect a direct meaningful change upon.

Exactly, the problem is that I've never really found anything that I can do, mostly because I'm just too broken and defective of a subhuman; a useless, worthless parasite unworthy of life.

If I'm effort-posting, I regularly save all the text to my clipboard or use a notes app.

I'd love to have drafts auto-saved, and it's something that's been suggested to Zorba, but he's got enough on his plate as is.

IIRC from seeing your previous feedback it seemed to happen to you quite often. This was the first time it's ever happened to me, but on the other hand I don't post much.

On the other other hand I sometimes draft long posts that I never submit and leave them for days and they're still sitting there waiting in their tab.

The screen scrolled without me touching it and then when I got back to where I was the comment was gone. Bizarre.

Your specific issue hasn't cropped up for me. In my case, it's because I'm on mobile and frequently need to change tabs to hunt down links and citations, and when I return to my comment it's been flushed from memory.

Feel free to report your specific instance as a bug on Github, though I think it's rare enough that I'm not sure it'll be easy to reproduce reliably or fix.

I'm content to attribute it to a glitch on my end. Just checked and I do indeed still have an unposted draft reply to another topic in a different tab that was unaffected.

If you're using Chrome there's a million extensions to autosave, e.g. this one I have no personally tried. On mobile, your options are more limited, but IIRC firefox mobile has extensions, or yandex.

Have you looked into John Vervaeke's series Awakening from the Meaning Crisis? He goes in depth into outlining the problem, and possible solutions. Although the latter half where he gets all into psychological concepts is skippable for sure.

Long story short - you have to have a lot of things to find purpose. You need a community, people around you that care about you and know you and will help you improve towards your purpose. You need some psychotechnology like prayer, meditation, et cetera to keep your mind focused. You also need to work on getting into the flow state, et cetera.

Idk man, it's not easy. I've been trying to find something like this myself, and it's a tough road but there are bright spots. Progress is possible.

One way to find purpose is to look at your life, and figure out where you've been hurt by other people or the world. What problems exist that made life harder for you? Then try to work on fixing those, to help others in the future who may be in your same situation. Just a thought.

Another thought would be to read great literature, like Dostoyevsky or Paradise Lost or Faust or whatever. Just check out some of the all time great works in the Western canon. A lot of them have themes around purpose and meaning in life, how to deal with it's loss and how to find it again.

Wishing you luck brother.

You need a community, people around you that care about you and know you and will help you improve towards your purpose.

How do you get that?

You need some psychotechnology like prayer, meditation, et cetera to keep your mind focused.

Well, I've been through some cognitive-behavioral therapy and dialectical-behavioral therapy, both individual and group, so there's some "mindfulness" and "distress tolerance" exercises I have — though, as a schizophrenic, full meditation is strongly discouraged.

figure out where you've been hurt by other people or the world. What problems exist that made life harder for you?

Most of those come down to either the existence of "faceless bureaucracies" that are, per Max Weber, an inevitable product of the "rationalization" that is itself a core part of the "Enlightenment" project; or else being born broken and defective.

Neither looks particularly fixable, and to the extent they could, there's nothing really for me to contribute. (For example, I'm not going to be whipping up a cure for autism in my apartment any time soon.)

Another thought would be to read great literature, like Dostoyevsky or Paradise Lost or Faust or whatever.

Read Crime and Punishment back in high school, Paradise Lost in college.

If you're in Alaska then you definitely haven't been getting enough sunlight over the past few months. It's a good time of year to visit Sedona. Hawaii is close but that can be pricey. Vitamin D & SAD lights are supposed to help but never did much for me.

Try taking care of animals. A litter robot gives a cat a fantastic joy / effort ratio.

If you're in Alaska then you definitely haven't been getting enough sunlight over the past few months. It's a good time of year to visit Sedona. Hawaii is close but that can be pricey.

Anywhere is pricey to travel to when you're living on government handouts, and getting food regularly from the local food bank.

Vitamin D & SAD lights are supposed to help but never did much for me.

They've helped me some.

Try taking care of animals.

Another expense I can't afford — and thus another thing where my parents will be dipping into the funds they're trying to save for their retirement home to spend money on me they can't afford. (I already owe them thousands of dollars.)

You sound real fucking depressed. Normally I'd say try to be more active, but as far as I understand you, you're already not terribly inactive. I'm a big proponent of building a family, but you specifically mentioned this is off the list (though I'd strongly urge you to reconsider).

Next on the list is imo leaving Alaska - northern regions are notorious for causing depression, try living in the south for an extended time span, at least several months, and spent as much time outside as possible while there. This is not easy depending on your monetary situation, but as a single guy you can almost certainly make it work.

If that doesn't work, try meds. I know it sounds stupid, depression always feels like a true fact of life when you're in it, but imo it's primarily a chemical imbalance. Problem is that most meds have serious side effects, so I'd try to avoid this if there's other options.

I'm a big proponent of building a family, but you specifically mentioned this is off the list (though I'd strongly urge you to reconsider).

Again, it's not a lack of interest, it's that as a 42-year-old virgin loser, my prospects are non-existent — unless you've got some some sort of new advice how to remedy that?

Next on the list is imo leaving Alaska

Financial reasons and what little family I have prevent this

If that doesn't work, try meds.

I've been on meds since my first suicide attempt back in 2004. This is me on meds.

Again, it's not a lack of interest, it's that as a 42-year-old virgin loser, my prospects are non-existent — unless you've got some some sort of new advice how to remedy that?

That's certainly problematic, but imo not as bad as you think it is. As a man it's easy to fall into a life where your contact with the fairer sex is minimal, and dating events/apps do not suit everyone. But to turn it around, you're basically dating on hard mode. Alaska does not have as bad of a sex ratio as I remembered, but it's still pretty lopsided, it's not exactly known to be full of extroverts and depending on where exactly you are there might not even be that many people in total in the area. As a (presumably white?) US citizen there's a long list of countries where it's extremely easy to find a partner even if you're arguably a loser. Latin america & eastern europe are good options, and asian countries are amazing bc asian women are really, really into white guys.

Financial reasons and what little family I have prevent this

You don't need to stay there forever, nor do you need to go there as a tourist. Unless you're the only carer for someone close, in which case I truly feel bad for you; I've seen a few cases where someone was stuck in a place they hated with no way out for 10+ years because they were the only one giving a shit about their sick mother/dad/grandparent/whatever.

Given that you're clearly reasonably intelligent, and even assuming that you're unreliable, lazy and/or physically disabled, I admittedly have a hard time believing that you can't find some (no matter how marginal!) employment to save up some money. In the worst case Mechanical Turk or such. Plenty of countries are ridiculously cheap in terms of both getting there and in living expenses if you're a childless western single eating regular supermarket food and staying in private accomodation. I read that you have some debt to your parents, but as a parent myself I can confidently say that if my chronically depressed son suddenly tried to get his act together and save up money to life somewhere else bc this place is killing him, I wouldn't mind just writing that debt off. Not claiming that any of this is easy or guaranteed to work, but remember, if you end up offing yourself you'll hurt your parents by far the most compared to any other option.

On the other hand, if you think you're incapable of living on our own due to mental issues and the government agrees, are there any options at all for shared living arrangements in your area? I know it's not ideal - even if you get a spot most people there will be noticeably mentally handicapped, which can be frustrating for someone who isn't - but it gives you a community, which is imo critical, and there is a good chance that you can help the others there to some degree as well, and they also often offer government-supported employment for people who are normally difficult to employ.

Lastly, have you ever tried online gaming guilds and similar? Again it's not ideal - you don't even attempt to be a productive member of society in that case - but it's another good way of finding community for the struggling. Also, it can be an OK-ish source of untaxed, albeit usually very marginal, income depending on the game.

I've been on meds since my first suicide attempt back in 2004. This is me on meds.

Yeah, that sucks. Depression meds are notoriously unreliable, with a side dish of occasionally making people suddenly kill themselves even if their depression hadn't been that bad beforehand. @self_made_human is of course correct that you sometimes have to cycle through a lot of meds until you find something that works for you, but I can understand wanting to stick with a med that is at least tolerable.

to save up some money.

SSI forbids this — it is, in fact, a big part of the issues I've been having with Social Security for the past year thanks to the Covid lockdown times. I'm forbidden from having more than $2000 total assets at any one time — if I go over that, my SSI drops to zero each month until it's back under.

save up money to life somewhere else bc this place is killing him

The problem is, I like it here — everywhere else I've tried to like has made my mental health worse. Plus, I leave, I lose my apartment subsidy, and if I have to move back, then it's a multi-year waiting list to get back on.

they also often offer government-supported employment for people who are normally difficult to employ.

I've been through my state's Department of Vocational Rehabilitation twice. The first time, they finally just printed me up some business cards as a private tutor and pushed me out the door; the second time they declared me unemployable. I also tried the local mental health services vocational assistance program… until they shut it down not long after (it was costing too much money for too little results).

Lastly, have you ever tried online gaming guilds and similar?

Not great at video games, and my internet is too lousy for that.

Edit: Also, I'm a right winger, and video games are not for right wingers ;-).

Okay, now for my actual edit:

As a (presumably white?) US citizen there's a long list of countries where it's extremely easy to find a partner even if you're arguably a loser.

I once had a therapist (an older, left-leaning woman) suggest something rather similar: that I somehow get a wealthier friend to pay for me to spend a few weeks in the poorest, most wretched country I can get to, in hopes that while I'm there, I'll find a woman desperate enough to marry me and have my kids for a green card. (She then, of course, went on to assert that, of course the wife and I would then need to raise those kids to be good mainstream American liberals, because giving children non-mainstream views would constitute child abuse, since "fitting in" is literally the most important thing in life.)

Plenty of countries are ridiculously cheap in terms of both getting there and in living expenses if you're a childless western single eating regular supermarket food and staying in private accomodation.

Edit 2:

nor do you need to go there as a tourist.

…

Plenty of countries are ridiculously cheap in terms of both getting there and in living expenses if you're a childless western single eating regular supermarket food and staying in private accomodation.

The problem is that no country would let me in except as a "tourist" or similarly short-term. Because not even US immigration law lets schizophrenics become long-term residents. Too much risk of ending up unable to support oneself.

Ah, schizophrenia it is. That's certainly harsh. In this case I admit that changing countries is questionable independent of legalities and finances - even the most functional schizophrenics I know have had issues that required assistance by family, friends and/or the state. You don't want to become a crazy homeless guy in latin america. I guess you've already been to different places inside the US itself? I've heard about a similar dynamic in southern US, where it can be a lot easier to find a hispanic wife, and they often are surprisingly right-leaning and becoming more so with time. Sure you might have some ... disputes on immigration law, but agreeing on everything is boring anyway.

SSI forbids this — it is, in fact, a big part of the issues I've been having with Social Security for the past year thanks to the Covid lockdown times. I'm forbidden from having more than $2000 total assets at any one time — if I go over that, my SSI drops to zero each month until it's back under.

Oh man do I hate SSI laws that are structured like this. But you can subvert this, depending on the way the law is written - in the most benign way if you're owing debt to your parents anyway, you can just pay them whatever you earn extra, and then ask for money again once you need it. Depends on the relationship with your parents and their attitude, but if I was them I'd be more than happy with such an arrangement. Next on the list would be to spend your money on easy-to-claim-worthless assets, such as trading cards (also a good source of companionship for losers, though you probably should avoid talking politics with them). This is technically breaking the law, but extremely unlikely to be caught (how many policemen care to look at your trading card collection?) and very plausibly deniable - you can just claim you thought of it as consumption. Further is just good ol' working black labor and keeping everything in hard cash - at least in my country, as long as you're just doing some odd jobs here and there for like 200$ a month, not a full-blown employment, nobody really gives a shit in practice. Private tutoring is ideal and very common for this in particular. But I guess you've probably considered this last one already.

Not great at video games, and my internet is too lousy for that.

I guess Alaska in general does probably not have the greatest ping even if the connection might be good otherwise. I'd consider it anyway, looking at my acquaintances who are very much losers it seems to be one of the most reliable ways to find companionship and even some respect for them. And to be frank they often also weren't actually very good, plenty of online games are structured so that the time you put in is more important than the skill you have (though it obviously is beneficial). In general given your age it's not unlikely that you're primarily bad since you never got into the habit. There is plenty of right-leaning spaces in gaming also, especially if you just stay in modding/clan discords and choose games appropriately (who would think that a WW2 tank warfare game where most of the best tanks are german would be absolutely dominated by right wingers? pikachu face). There is a decent number of games that do not require a good internet connection, such as turn-based games.

There are better meds. Ketamine is promising for treatment resistant depression. There's transcranial magnetic stimulation and electroconvulsive therapy.

If your meds aren't working (well, maybe they are, but you certainly don't seem to be not depressed), then alternatives exist. I look forward to getting ketamine treatment when I move somewhere where that's an option.

electroconvulsive therapy

Sorry, but I've read too many accounts of the damage done — to memory and otherwise — to risk it.

Plus, I'm limited to what Medicaid (if I ever get it back) will cover.

Look into awakening, and you can start with /r/streamentry, which is a mostly secular approach. By awakening, the idea is that you have a visceral experience of how your mind actually operates, in a way that will reduce suffering the remainder of your life. It’s also called enlightenment in popular culture, but that word is so loaded it’s not a great idea to use it.

Sometimes people use psychedelics as a window to this experience, but it’s helpfulness/harmfulness is somewhat debated.

Any of the dharmic traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.) hold some approximation of this experience to be a major (if not ultimate) aim of human life.

This “new awareness” which follows this awakening is described as free from delusion and often times hugely relaxing. It’s usually entered through the paths of meditation, devotion, service to others, or self knowledge, depending on the specific path you follow. While details differ from tradition to tradition, the idea is that your “self” concept and related thought-baggage are the source of much misery, and when it takes a backseat through practice and reflection, peace and bliss will follow. Life becomes a piece of art unfolding, instead of a mundane and bitter slog. Though this is easier said than done, hence why the paths and practice.

Michael Singer’s two books, The Untethered Soul and Surrender Experiment, are a clear and approachable starting point to the concepts above, imho.

Edit: also should add /r/streamentry might be overkill if you are unfamiliar with meditation (in fact it’s not what I practice myself, though it opened many interesting concepts for me early on). I would recommend the Singer books to get started.

Sometimes people use psychedelics as a window to this experience, but it’s helpfulness/harmfulness is somewhat debated.

Any of the dharmic traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.) hold some approximation of this experience to be a major (if not ultimate) aim of human life.

Like I've said to others, this sort of thing is all strongly warned against when you're schizophrenic, because it's pretty much guaranteed to make the schizophrenia worse.

Yes, the spiritual traditions are usually against the use of substances for this purpose, for anybody really, regardless of mental issues. I just bring it up because it seems like a common entry point among a number of Western followers of these paths.

Not just substances — any kind of "meditation experience" is contraindicated.

True, which is why there are other paths like bhagti and karma that would likely yield better results.

I enjoy feeling like I've accomplished something and learnt something. Find tutorials, online or in real life, about how to gain real skills like programming or wood carving.

Go do things that are viscerally enjoyable. See some mountains, or the ocean. Go for a walk in the woods. Do some star gazing. Take a trip to a national or state park. You can't see or experience anything cool after skipping to the end, so enjoy the ride. You'll get there eventually anyway, no need to be hasty.

Go do things that are viscerally enjoyable.

That's the thing — nothing's really enjoyable.

See some mountains

We've got plenty of those right to our east

or the ocean

Not sure what the big deal about that is supposed to be — but then, the ocean here looks so much more gray and dull than the blue I see on the screen.

Go for a walk in the woods.

I do that pretty often — there's a ski/hiking trail through some woods near my apartment that work for getting in some exercise.

Take a trip to a national or state park

Like, 90% of Alaska is composed of those two things. It's a bit hard to get out there without a car, but I've done that.

Look, "touch grass" is not a purpose.

You'll get there eventually anyway

After possibly several decades of further suffering. What reason do I have to put myself through such misery?

Move states. A change in scenery can help. An honest consideration might just moving somewhere with more sunlight. Places that are cold and dark most of the year don't help anhedonia.

Or take the opposite route and go volunteer for something purposeful. What purpose? Whatever you want. Don't want anything? Try something arbitrary that other people want, and maybe you'll see what they see.

Or invest in bettering yourself in some pursuit. Running, lifting weights, origami, piano tuning... whatever.

But I don't think there is any way for people on the internet to convince you of meaning, purpose, or enjoyment. You have to venture out and do things.

Doing things hasn't worked? Do new things.

In my case, I think the near future is probably going to be really fucking sick. AGI. Full immersion VR. Colonizing the solar system and then the galaxy. Immortality in one form or another. The best fucking movies, video games, books and music you can imagine, delivered custom made and nigh instantly on demand

As far as I'm concerned, there's no other period in time I'd rather have been born, and even as someone who is rather depressed and gritting his teeth to pull through more days a year than he'd like, especially when so much of my hopes and dreams have been sabotaged by circumstances outside my control, I still have so much to look forward to that even at my lowest I have no real desire to "skip forward to the end". They'll cure my depression and ADHD sooner rather than later. And even if I get paperclipped, we're far too close to the end of an era for me to bear missing out on that closure.

At any rate, the human body and mind was designed to keep trucking through far worse. Most depressed and unhappy people don't kill themselves. Even if you don't have a "reason to live" (and I cherish life for its own sake), you'll find that you keep on rolling, if only slightly downhill. It is what it is, but will probably get better.

The best fucking movies, video games, books and music you can imagine, delivered custom made and nigh instantly on demand

This is nothing exciting for someone who consumes no media. I've stopped watching TV, playing games and reading books (going out with friends, running, cycling, lifting and working on programming projects is better).

I'm a programmer so there is a lot of exiciting projects that can be done though. The new embedding models made text classification a solved problem.

Given how much programmers like to complain about programming, rejoice! You won't have to much longer 🙏😩

On the other hand, I am perennially plagued by niche tastes and an acute absence of good media of the genre I like to read, so I will gladly take my obsolescence as a writer if it means I can read more quality stuff. I wrote a novel precisely because it was the kind of thing I wanted to read, and I'd rather not have to, it's a lot of work you see.

(One minor annoyance I have is that SOTA models often have knowledge cutoffs that are just before recent library releases, especially knowledge of the latest updates. Less of an issue when you can throw the entire documentation into the 1 million tokens, but still annoying all the same. Can't wait till we have online learning.)

I think most of that tech-optimism you lay out is unfounded to the extreme (except the VR bit, but that's just more escapism). If "AGI" is even possible at all, it's not happening this century. Aging and lifespan has been so deeply ingrained into us by countless evolutionary trade-offs to a degree that pretty much any "life-extension" project is almost certainly doomed to failure, let alone "immortality." "Colonizing the solar system and then the galaxy." Not with chemical rockets, are we doing that any time soon. We're not going to figure out the brain well enough to cure depression or ADHD. There will be no "singularity," no "end of an era," not even the "closure" of "paperclippingm," just slow civilizational decay.

Even if you don't have a "reason to live" (and I cherish life for its own sake), you'll find that you keep on rolling, if only slightly downhill

I've been doing that for ~20 years now. It's never getting better.

Sure, you've got nothing to look forward to then. Luckily I entirely disagree, and humans keep on trucking nonetheless.

If "AGI" is even possible at all, it's not happening this century.

Have you seen Claude 3? It's going around answering PHD-level questions in a bunch of different fields. https://twitter.com/idavidrein/status/1764675668175094169

Five years ago we had none of this. The whole field of chatbots was a joke: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6rEkKWXCcR4

If you weren't predicting five or six years ago that we'd have AI this capable, how can you possibly say 'it's not happening this century'? You think you can predict 75 years into the future?

Claude 3 (Sonnet, not Opus) gave a PhD-candidate-quality answer to a qualitative applied math question I asked it, so I tried a couple related quantitative questions. The easiest was basically Calc-3, and it made a sign error, and trying to get it to correct that error (it only even admitted it on my third try) made it go completely off the rails.

Formatting its math responses in LaTeX without being asked was pretty cool, though. And it was clearly ahead of GPT4 and Bard, which beat the snot out of GPT3.

If you weren't predicting five or six years ago that we'd have AI this capable

What "capable"? LLMs are a meaningless parlor trick — of little significance, and not any kind of step towards "general intelligence." "The whole field of chatbots" is a pointless distraction.

Not with that attitude. I mean, even if you regard the entire field and its weird inbred offshoots as parlor tricks of little significance (the former I would agree with, the latter I find highly debatable even now, for one it vastly simplifies routine code writing in mine and my colleagues' experience) - aren't you at least a little interested in how the current "AI" develops, even it its current state? In the workings of quite literally alien "minds" whose "thought processes", though giving similar outputs, in no other way resemble our own? In the curious fact that almost all recent developments happened by an arcane scientific method known as "just throw more compute at it lmao"? I don't mean to impose my hobby horse on you but I legitimately think this shit is fascinating, anyone who dismisses it out of hand is very much missing out, and I'm massively curious about future developments - and I say this as a man who hasn't picked up a new hobby since he put his hands on his shiny new keyboard when he turned 12 years old.

More generally, you sound like a typical intelligent man who outgrew his playground and realized existence is a fucking scam, which I think is a fairly common problem (not to downplay its impact, I think many mottizens can empathize, me among them) and you've been given good suggestions downthread. Personally, being the rube I am, I just ducked right back into the playground upon reaching a similar burnout and try to derive enjoyment from simple things - alcohol, vidya, etc. It's not exactly healthy and it does ring hollow sometimes, not gonna lie, but at least I'm no longer paralyzed by the sheer emptiness of the human condition and can ruminate focus on the actual problems I have.

aren't you at least a little interested in how the current "AI" develops, even it its current state?

No, because I don't see them as even quote-unquote "minds".

and try to derive enjoyment from simple things - alcohol, vidya, etc.

Except I don't derive enjoyment from any of those (and antipsychotics mean I can't drink).

"Don't derive enjoyment" as in see no point and don't try, or as in do but it does nothing? I expect the latter (although I really struggle to imagine not enjoying at least some video game, there are so many in existence that at least one is, like, statistically guaranteed to tickle your fancy), but if it's the former, try actually forcing yourself to search for/do something even if you see no point, usually "seeing no point in anything" is a scam pulled on you by your dysfunctional grey matter.

Some years ago when I had a bad bout of depression to the point I didn't want to ever leave my house, I went out on a limb and made a "deal" with myself: whenever my friends occasionally called me out to drink or whatever, I would always comply, even if I don't feel like it, even if it's very inconvenient, even if only for an hour etc. etc. No excuses - you grunt and mumble, but get dressed and go out with hunched shoulders at some point in that day. To this day I distinctly remember that I fucking hated going out every time, imagining how boring it would be and how I would kill everybody's mood, but I never remember actually having some kind of a bad time once I was out. In fact I usually felt better afterwards.

If all else fails, doing anything at all (preferably with your physical body) is pretty much always better than the alternative. Your brain is your enemy at this point and you should treat it accordingly.

More generally, you sound like a typical intelligent man who outgrew his playground and realized existence is a fucking scam, which I think is a fairly common problem (not to downplay its impact, I think many mottizens can empathize, me among them) and you've been given good suggestions downthread. Personally, being the rube I am, I just ducked right back into the playground upon reaching a similar burnout and try to derive enjoyment from simple things - alcohol, vidya, etc. It's not exactly healthy and it does ring hollow sometimes, not gonna lie, but at least I'm no longer paralyzed by the sheer emptiness of the human condition and can ruminate focus on the actual problems I have.

This is the same conclusion that I've reached. I went from: "I should be a productive member of society and study something that will bring positive value and progress to the world", to: "Astrophysics and anime are good enough for me, even if my betters thinks that I'm a man-child, who cares?"

I am perfectly happy with being a productive member of society. I like helping people and being useful.

Unfortunately, I expect that humans will be obsolete in that regard, so you bet I'm willing to be content with mild hedonism and doing whatever I like. Nothing that fundamentally warps my psyche or is of the level of addictiveness as opioids or wireheading, but video games? The ones I like are abstracted away enough from Skinner Boxes that I make the unprincipled exception of being willing to play them forever.

"Astrophysics and anime are good enough for me, even if my betters thinks that I'm a man-child, who cares?"

Except, I don't have an "astrophysics and anime." There is no joy in life. What reason do I have to keep suffering it — because suffering is all there is — if not for some higher goal or purpose?

I understand and I do not have an answer. There have been times in which even my interests were not enough and I would have written the exact same words as you. These feelings are always there, underneath my conscious brain, I will probably bever be a "normal" person and if stretched, I would probably take my own life, I am just "lucky" enough that my despair is fluctuating so I can seem glimpses of hope. As for higher purpose, I gave up on that: I tried religion, meditation, therapy, becoming a workaholic... Nothing is satisfying in a fundamental way. I just concentrate on my daily action because the future fills me with horror and contempkating it it has not been a productive endeavour. I keep living as if everyday will be as banal and worthless as the this one, using my copes until they last. Try some cope, maybe you will find some solace in the scam that is existence, it is not guaranteed though.

If the same program can play chess, can answer maths questions, write fiction, poems, code websites and critique art... how is it not generally intelligent?

You seem to think you can predict 75 years into the future, would you care to back that up with any kind of reasoning, as opposed to scare quotes?

My Catholic instinct is to tell you to Jesus up your Jesus meter until you get a sick Jesus turbo boost.

But, I'm aware that, on the Motte, the kids would say that's "sus" and I may even be accused of "cappin'"

Thus, allow me to perform a sinful heresy on your behalf and secularize what's basically a Christian imperative.

  1. Ask yourself the question "What would you want to have happen in the world even if you were dead?" paired with "What do you want the world to be like 100 years after you die". I'd recommend doing the old trick of asking this question, going on a walk wherein you don't try to direct your thoughts, and then come back home to write no more than a single page (maybe 300 words at the most) to capture your thoughts. Do this once or twice a week for .... as long as it takes!

  2. A little more prescriptive; read Infinite and Finite games by James P. Carse. And then find an infinite game to play.

Do this once or twice a week for .... as long as it takes!

As long as it takes until what, exactly?

What good does it do to have an answer to "What do you want the world to be like 100 years after you die," if it doesn't give you an actionable goal? What does it matter to have such a picture, if there's nothing you can do to affect whether or not it comes to pass? (Or maybe you just can't see any such actions.)

What good does it do to have an answer to "What do you want the world to be like 100 years after you die," if it doesn't give you an actionable goal?

You will start to move towards better things that may reveal not only a single, but multiple goals. The pursuit of truth isn't a single path. There are many branches to it and finding the one or the several that best accommodate you is an important part of the process. It's what some of us would call "discernment." If you're waiting around to discover not only (1) THE big goal and (2) a perfectly linear prescriptive algorithm to accomplish it ... you're waiting for revelation. If so, prepare for even more doubt and feelings of existential dread.

What does it matter to have such a picture, if there's nothing you can do to affect whether or not it comes to pass?

Sorry to be trite, but; have faith.

Or maybe you just can't see any such actions.

There you go!

As long as it takes until what, exactly?

Exactly.

You will start to move towards better things that may reveal not only a single, but multiple goals. The pursuit of truth isn't a single path. There are many branches to it and finding the one or the several that best accommodate you is an important part of the process. It's what some of us would call "discernment."

I'm not sure I understand what any of this means?

Sorry to be trite, but; have faith.

But I don't, and I don't know how to.

There you go!

That's not an answer

As long as it takes until what, exactly?

Exactly.

Nor is that.

Have a religious revival.

If you can’t do that, take up chainsmoking so the thought of your morning cig gets you out of bed.

chainsmoking

Isn't vaping a much less unhealthy way of consuming nicotine?

Yes. The maximum bound on the "badness" of vaping is about 5% of that of cigarettes for equivalent use, IIRC. That is the maximum, there is evidence the net impact is close to nil.

Suffice to say I did read research papers before I decided to take it up (from being an adamant non-smoker) because I was convinced that barring nicotine addiction, there are no significant downsides. Nicotine isn't even notably bad for you, closer to caffeine.

If you’re chronically depressed, that might be a point in favor of cigarettes.

Have a religious revival.

Would require one to have a past religion to revive

If you can’t do that, take up chainsmoking

Expensive and unpleasant a habit.

Would require one to have a past religion to revive

You could always pick one up.

I'll return to my broken-record endorsement of running. Why roll out of bed and run? Well, if I don't, I'll be slower than I was before. But if I do, I'll be faster than I was before. Sometimes I'll beat people in races and sometimes I'll lose, but I will be satisfied with being able to compete either way.

If competition holds no appeal to you, we're too far apart in natural inclination for me to offer anything of use.

I tried running for 4 months. Like proper HIIT, not just a light jog (insert 4chan greentext about Anon who doesn't realize that runners don't normally run, and is disappointed when he can't sprint several kilometers a day as he thinks the guide he followed demands of him a few weeks in).

Suffice to say I did not enjoy it in the least, and all I had for competition were curious villagers, cattle, small motor vehicles and cobras, not necessarily in that order. I didn't even notice any massive changes, I was still as conked out with sore legs on my usual route 4 months in as I was at the end of the first.

Ah - the problem there is that you were doing proper HIIT, not that you weren't. If you're wanting to physically develop to the point where running isn't miserable every time out, it requires lot of easy effort, not lots of high effort. Elite athletes that put in huge miles are typically running about 80% of it as a fairly low effort. The majority of aerobic fitness gains come from relatively easy effort, with higher effort providing additional VO2Max, lactic threshold, or neuromuscular power (depending on the workout). For me, a typical week during a non-marathon training block is something like:

  • Monday - Recovery day: Easy 45 minute bike ride, easy 4 mile run (9:00/mile pace)
  • Tuesday - Track intervals: Warmup (3 miles, some strides mixed in), 12x400m (start at 10K pace, progress to 3K pace by last interval, 400m easy jog recoveries between), cooldown (2 miles easy)
  • Wednesday - Recovery run: 6 miles easy (8:30/mile pace)
  • Thursday - General aerobic: 10 miles at moderate effort (7:40/mile pace)
  • Friday - Lactic Threshold: Warmup (3 miles, some strides mixed in), 3x2 miles@LT (6:00/mile pace, 2 minutes float recovery at 7:00/mile pace), cooldown
  • Saturday - General aerobic: 8 miles at moderate effort (7:40/mile pace, but feel free to pick it up if I feel good)
  • Sunday - Long run: 14 miles @ moderate effort (7:40/mile, likely to run harder the last few miles)

If you've developed the fitness for it, all of the recovery and general aerobic feels relaxing and not very difficult. Pop in a podcast, spend an hour outside, drink a beer when I get home. The workouts are hard but satisfying.

For someone starting out, I would basically suggest zero interval work. Accumulating base mileage just has a much larger impact on aerobic fitness with much less risk of injury and burnout. If someone isn't consistently running ~30-40 miles per week, they will probably gain more running fitness from adding more time and mileage than from running harder more frequently.

Hmm, you probably have a point here. I hated running, so I thought that if I could get the whole thing over with quickly with HIIT instead of ambling along for hours, it would get me fitter and faster.

Rest assured I run around enough at the hospital, or so my sore legs, ass and back tell me today.

How fast would you say an average man should jog?

A while back, I started one of those couch-to-5k routines. It was all intervals. Great, I’m ramping up jog time, 3 minutes, 5, 8. Then suddenly—20 minutes, 2 miles. Huh? I wasn’t even doing my short intervals at 10-minute-mile pace. It was like a cliff for me.

I can’t figure out if I should be pushing up my pace or just reaching for that longer interval.

Longer and easier, the improved speed and fitness will come in time. There really isn't a pace that can be set externally without respect to where you're currently at. Some of the legit fast guys in my running club (roughly 2:35 marathoners, so guys that are running 6:00/mile pace for 26.2 miles) are perfectly happy to trot along at a 10-minute pace on brewery run nights so they can hang out with slower friends. Obviously they do speedwork as well, but there's a lot of value in low aerobic effort running all the way up the ladder. Getting to the point where you're genuinely comfortable at literally any pace that is still a running gait for a half hour is a better starting point than getting frustrated by the fatigue of going too fast. If that pace is 11:30 miles for the moment, then the pace is 11:30 miles for the moment. In a couple months, it'll be 11:00 minute.

I cannot overstate the extent to which comparison is the thief of joy. There's always people that are faster, don't worry about what you feel like you should be able to do. For a guy that didn't pick the sport up till later, I'm pretty decent, occasionally win small races, and it's still super easy to get sucked into being bothered that I'm not as fast as the other guys. The only solution to it just getting accustomed to that.

Thanks.

I’ll try to push up my duration while holding the current pace.

If competition holds no appeal to you, we're too far apart in natural inclination for me to offer anything of use.

Males typically enjoy competition provided they have some chance of winning. I've never met a male who continues to enjoy a competitive activity in which they consistently lose. (For footraces this means near last-place finishes.)

To find meaning it's important to find a competition within an arm's length of your competency. See: eudaimonia, or flow state.

You're never going to win 'em all, or even win above some level of competition, but for the average random guy, it's entirely feasible to become reasonably competitive in small local races. Probably more importantly, I have plenty of fun competing in things that I have zero chance of winning - I'm still racing against the people that I'm closed to, and we've run together enough that we all know each other at this point, so it's all in good camaraderie.

Obviously running specifically won't be for everyone. If someone else wants fighting, lifting, or whatever other sport, more power to them. I do think there's something special about endurance sports, but I have a fair bit of bias in that direction that isn't objective. In any case, pick a sport, work hard at it, compete and build friendships, and that's a pretty good way to find day-to-day purpose.

reasonably competitive in small local races

If you have those in your area.

I'm still racing against the people that I'm closed to

Requires having such people.

If you live in the United States or United Kingdom, you probably have small local races at least somewhat nearby.

But sure, it is true that some locales are better than others for this sort of community, as with all types of communities. It's one of the things that I love about the city I'm in and would be disinclined to tradeoff for the advantages of other areas.

You have to create purpose / meaning.

Why are faith and family unavailable?

Hedonism is mostly meaningless.

You have to create purpose / meaning.

And how does one do that?

Why are faith and family unavailable?

For faith, raised pretty irreligious, have never found any religions possible (unless you count Xunzi's strain of Confucianism as a religion), none of the churches in my area seem like a "good fit."

For family, while I do get on well with my parents and two brothers, that's the whole of our family, and it's going to end with my generation.

Hedonism is mostly meaningless.

I know, but sometimes online I get people going on about how they avoid suicide by looking forward to the next Marvel movie, or the next World of Warcraft expansion, or whatever. And a bit more often I get "find something you enjoy doing, and then make your life about doing that," which both tends toward hedonism, and which doesn't really work when one doesn't really enjoy anything.

Check out Jordan Peterson's lectures if you haven't already. He helped me learn to accept religion from a sort of symbological point of view. Worth a shot.

And how does one do that?

For me, it was marriage, family and community. Though I tried hedonism for a decade before I married.

Part of the benefit of religion is the community / fellowship. You can experience something similar and secular organizations, Rotary Club, Lion's Club etc.

Why is family ending with your generation? Is it related to your ahedonia?

For meaning and purpose; something you enjoy is likely insufficient. I think you need to be part of a larger whole where your absence specifically is noticeable and detrimental.

Does anyone or anything depend on you?

You can experience something similar and secular organizations, Rotary Club, Lion's Club etc.

Wouldn't know how to join one, nor why they would want me as a member — plus, how I'd afford membership, transportation, etc.

Why is family ending with your generation?

Neither of my brothers want kids, for different reasons, and I'm a 42-year-old virgin who's never even been on a date.

I think you need to be part of a larger whole where your absence specifically is noticeable and detrimental.

And I have none.

Does anyone or anything depend on you?

Nope.

How long have you had the anhedonia? Any medication that may be contributing?

Do you have any plants, pets or livestock?

Have you discussed any of this with your brothers?

How long have you had the anhedonia?

Decades.

Any medication that may be contributing?

Well, I thought my antidepressant was supposed to be helping, and I don't think my antipsychotic or beta-blocker are contributing. (Though, I might find out soon when I run out and can't get refills because of issues with my Medicaid, because this state completely fucked up dealing with post-COVID backlogs and the current aftermath.)

Do you have any plants, pets or livestock?

A couple of simple houseplants. Livestock? In a tiny (subsidized) apartment?

Have you discussed any of this with your brothers?

Which part?

For faith, raised pretty irreligious, have never found any religions possible (unless you count Xunzi's strain of Confucianism as a religion), none of the churches in my area seem like a "good fit."

Have you considered talking to an actual apologist?

For family, while I do get on well with my parents and two brothers, that's the whole of our family, and it's going to end with my generation.

It doesn’t have to end with your generation. You can marry and have children.

Have you considered talking to an actual apologist?

Well, I do have a friend who is a tradcath with five kids…

You can marry and have children.

I'm over 40, unemployed (on disability), and have never even managed to successfully get a date.

Well, I do have a friend who is a tradcath with five kids

Give it a shot- there’s no shortage of very smart tradcaths who can explain reasons for why we believe what we believe.

I'm over 40, unemployed (on disability), and have never even managed to successfully get a date.

Ah, I take that back.

Give it a shot- there’s no shortage of very smart tradcaths who can explain reasons for why we believe what we believe.

He has. And has given up on trying to convert me — he once made a comment that it would probably take God Himself directly appearing to me and telling me to join the Catholic church to get me to believe, and maybe not even that, so now he just prays for my soul.

I meant you give it a shot- you want a community and a purpose and that would get you those things.

I meant you give it a shot

What, just show up to a church as a total unbeliever, and… then what?

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats