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Edit: Merrick Garland timeline, and MAGA grandma below
I really appreciate the specifics in your response! I'll go point by point first, from the standpoint of how unusually Ray Epps was treated:
Factor 1: Epps encouraged others to enter the Capitol
It's true that Epps 1) repeatedly encouraged others to go into the Capitol "peacefully" (whatever that means) and 2) did not enter the Capitol himself. Moreover, he's captured on video trying to calm protestors down. I agree #1 is a negative factor for sentencing, but would you agree that #2 is a positive factor for sentencing? I don't know if the two factors exactly cancel each other out but it's fairly routine for the legal system to have drastically lowered penalties for criminals who change their mind at the last minute.
Besides that, both Alex Jones (though he did say "We are peaceful" and "we need to not have the confrontation with the police") and Nick Fuentes ("Keep moving towards the Capitol! It appears we are taking the Capitol!") encouraged others to march towards the Capitol but did not enter themselves, and unlike Epps neither of them were charged with any crimes.
Because far more prominent individuals who encouraged others to go to the Capitol and were not even charged, while Epps was charged with misdemeanors, this particular factor does not indicate that Epps was treated unusually. What do you think I'm missing?
Factor 2: FBI's most wanted
It's true that Epps was put on an FBI "Seeking Information" list as Photograph #16. He still shows up on Twitter, but no longer on the official list, but lots of other photos have also been taken down from that list (they're numbered sequentially so if you start at the beginning you'll see it goes 1, 2, 5, 9, 13, etc). I don't understand how this is indicative of unusual treatment if the FBI is removing dozens (hundreds?) of other photos.
Regarding the timing of charges, it's true that Epps wasn't charged until a mere 3 days after Merrick Garland was asked about him.[Edit: I hadn't looked closely when I posted this, but Merrick Garland was asked about Ray Epps by Thomas Massie on 9/20/23 and charges against Ray Epps were actually filed two days prior on 9/18/23. Epps appeared virtually in court on the 20th to plead guilty, which heavily indicates the plea was negotiated a couple of months prior]. The timing could be more than just a coincidence, but in what direction? You could argue that Epps was treated unusually harshly if you compare his conduct to Jones and Fuentes (who have not been charged) but you're arguing the opposite and I don't understand how.Factor 3: Undercharged relative to others
It's true it's difficult to draw a direct comparison about conduct regarding what the "baseline charge" should be, but you're begging the question by saying Epps was undercharged "relative to other major J6 figures". Regarding his specific conduct (and not the attention he's garnered) why should Epps be considered a major figure to begin with? To conduct any comparison it would be helpful if you can identify an illustrative example of a J6 defendant who acted similarly to Ray Epps but was charged/sentenced much more harshly.
Factor 4: Victim of Conspiracies
This is a recursive argument. The judge at his sentencing said "While many defendants have been vilified in a way unique to Jan. 6, you seem to be the first to have suffered for what you didn't do". I don't deny that's a unique situation, but to establish that Epps was treated uniquely generously you need a baseline to compare against.
I don't know the grandma you're referring to[Edit: Found what I think is the grandma, who entered the capitol and got 2 months in jail], so all I have to compare against is the fact that Epps avoided jail just like 37% of other convicted J6 defendants.Maybe if we had a hypothetical Ray Epps Two who was the subject of similarly intense conspiracy theories but whose sentencing judge did not acknowledge his suffering then you could argue that Ray Epps One was treated unusually generously, but if it's not reflected in sentencing why would that matter?
Factor 5: Epps' suit against Fox News
I don't understand any of this. Why is the suit shameless? How could the DOJ possibly stop Epps from suing Fox News? Even if somehow they charged him with triple-digit felonies, he would still be able to sue (almost a quarter of federal lawsuits are filed by prisoners!). This is a baffling point.
TL;DR
Fuentes is widely believed to be either operated by feds due to threat of prosecution, or behaving as if he were by playing the persona of the degenerate racist piece of shit. Exactly what the media wants. He does nonsensical things like that time he endorse a schizo black man for .. president ?
Alex Jones is a non-stop noise generator who can discredit anything by merely speaking about it. Those aren't really the best examples.
That's fair pushback, what examples would you suggest as superior comparisons? From another post of mine:
Are there any people like him who were on the scene, that loud who got no actual time?
I already mentioned Fuentes and Alexander who were on the scene and loud and were never even charged.
If "Alexander" refers to Jones, then you are again being misleading.
I'm not sure how you could've missed that I was talking about Ali Alexander, that was only one level above.
By reading stuff out of context? Why is every disagreement such a great mystery with you?
No worries dude, I understand. Apology accepted
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(sigh)
Yes, we all live in Surkov's world, despite not even being Russian.
I don't understand what this means
Meaning, it's a theater. It's not 'real'. Fuentes is, just like e.g. McCain was. A seemingly independent agent of hidden powers. Playing a different role, sure.
All very confusing. Why bother asking your original question then? If you believe everyone I brought up is an actor playing a role, it would be helpful for you to state upfront which people you believe are 'real'. Even more helpful would be to explain what that even means but, one step at a time I guess.
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First off, I think you mean "into" here. But anyway, complete side track, but it's sort of hilarious watching this regularly-scheduled program on a completely different screen than watching the Section 3 disqualification program. Like, here, the fact that someone just encouraged others to go into the Capitol is good reason to not charge them. But ya know, with Trump, he didn't even do that, yet it is clearly and obviously "engaging in insurrection".
No I meant "to" because I didn't see anything about Alex Jones encouraging others to go inside. I don't know what you're referring to about regularly-scheduled program, it's hard to compare behaviors from different people because people don't act like mimes and do exactly the same thing at the same time at the same place. Best you can do is outline what the relevant factors and dimensions are and then analyze the actions according to that template. Inevitably you're bound to encounter reasonable disagreement throughout that process.
I mean, I agree with basically your entire comment about what we can do. The bit about "regularly-scheduled program" is that if you just look at the screen about this topic, it might on the surface look like everyone is doing this sort of 'best thing', outlining relevant factors, etc. It looks like the normal, ho-hum, program of people doing the best thing. Alternatively, if you just look at the screen about Section 3 disqualification, it might also look on the surface like everyone is doing this sort of 'best thing', outlining relevant factors, etc. But then it just strikes you when you see both of them smashed together. Like, really?! Trump "engaged in insurrection" on one screen, but we appear to have just an entirely different outline of relevant factors on the other screen. Just wild in contrast.
That's how the law works in general. There's enough precedents and opinions laying around that in any given case, you can credibly apply them to make the case go either way; in fact, almost every case has at least one lawyer on each side doing just that. So how do you actually decide the case? By criteria outside the law, which you then justify using the appropriate set of precedents. If you really can't find any which support the thing you want... make something up that sounds all legal-like, building on the closest thing (e.g. the "bad actor" test making Trump's speech not eligible for First Amendment protection).
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Before I respond to any specifics I want to lay out a few general suppositions: I think it's totally reasonable, almost necessary, to believe that the FBI had informants in MAGA groups and at J6; J6 prosecutions (even if you think they're legitimate) have a strong political dimension.
I can't read Epps' mind; I don't know how thoroughly the FBI was embedded in J6 attendees; I don't know whether the FBI orchestrated any part of J6 or it's only been weaponized in the aftermath; I don't have and might never have any records that will prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. I do know that some specific people have been caught lying about J6 (the J6 Committee, government reports of officers killed, Nancy Pelosi's bodyguard, etc.).
Let's concede that it's entirely possible Epps could really be innocent. We're all just filling in blanks here. But for the reasons already discussed, I do not find Epps' total innocence very likely.
Onto some of your specific points:
Jones is not known to have been near the Capitol at all: he was speaking from Lafayette Square. This is in a different category from Epps, who was present at the Capitol and encouraging people to go in (while pointedly not going in himself). I don't think this is an apples-to-apples comparison.
The lack of charges for Fuentes are taken as suspicious by many people. It's openly discussed whether he was a Fed. I have not bothered looking into the accusations, there are a lot of arguments floating around. My supposition is that he's been a party to so many shenanigans by this point that the Feds would be stupid if they haven't at least tried to recruit him. He could also be genuinely that dumb.
In part because he was near the top of the FBI's J6 List until he wasn't. In part because he's a highly-visible face saying everything lefties have accused J6 of representing. He was an Oath Keepers chapter president. He he was on restricted Capitol Grounds. He fits the exact profile of people who have been otherwise severely charged.
Granted that Epps is not an Alex Jones, or Enrique Tarrio, or someone who otherwise might have been presumed to be a leader within MAGA before the J6 events. But that's not the only qualification. Epps is perhaps the most visible face of protesters agitating to enter the Capitol, the very proof that J6 was part of serious sedition, and all he gets is a slap on the wrist.
Yes? I don't disagree, but don't know how that's relevant to whether Epps was treated with unusual leniency.
Innocent of what? He already plead guilty.
That's totally fair that you don't think Alex Jones is a good comparison, so who would you propose comparing against? You can't say that someone was treated "unusually" unless you already have a comparison in mind, so who are you comparing Epps against?
I don't know what you mean by "near the top" except that he was one of the first to be put on the 'seeking information' list. Chronology does not determine severity, so why is this significant? What does it mean to have a highly-visible face? People know who he is because he received significant right-wing media attention, so is that your metric? What are lefties claiming J6 represents and how does Epps represent it? It's true that he used to be an Oath Keeper chapter president in 2011, why is that significant? It's true that he was on restricted Capitol Grounds, but so were up to 10,000 other people, so why is that significant? What exactly is the "exact profile" of people who were charged? Did you determine this profile by examining all 1,265 J6 defendants? Are you claiming that prosecutions are decided by looking for this profile? This is an extremely confusing paragraph.
You concede that Epps would not be presumed to be a leader of any kind and I just want to understand how you contrasted his situation to determine that he was treated unusually. I again repeat that a really good starting point would be for you to pick one comparable J6 defendant that you think was treated much more harshly than Epps.
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Is there video of Alex Jones telling people to enter the capitol? I thought there was opposite video evidence, of him saying "don't enter it's a trap".
Search engines are fucking useless these days. I can find hundreds of second hand descriptions from "reputable" news sources, but it's nearly impossible to find the first hand video evidence.
I remember Alex Jones in a video interview. Saying what I described in the first paragraph and then I remember looking it up and confirming it at the time with video evidence. But it's seemingly impossible to retrace steps.
I also saw a video of him driving around in his hummer shouting on a bullhorn for people not to enter, at the time -- search seems remarkably fucked indeed. (and/or youtube has been scrubbing this sort of thing -- probably the fastest way to find the video would be to go ask on /pol/, which is quite the state of affairs)
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I have no seen any evidence or video of Alex Jones explicitly telling people to enter the capitol. He was just the first person that came to mind who seemed more-or-less comparable to Epps along the "whip up crowd to head to the Capitol" axis.
This is the only video I could find, and only by adding "Joe Rogan" to my search terms which is apparently an alternate tag for "original video". In the video Alex Jones is telling people to avoid a confrontation with Police, and to march to the other side. He is a hundred or more feet away from the capitol building.
Mostly you can know that Alex Jones had zero involvement, because there is no footage of him having any involvement. If there was anything remotely implicating him it would have been blasted on every news channel. Your vague intuition of "Alex Jones would do something like this" is the exact same intuition as the people that put that intuition there in the first place. If they could have fed it, they would have.
Its also part of my continuing frustration with the state of the world. Common perception has diverged massively. You have the intuition that Alex Jones would do something. I have the intuition that Alex Jones would be set up and blamed for doing that thing while being totally innocent. The evidence for your intuition is easily findable in a bunch of second hand news sources that all vaguely hint in that direction, without ever saying enough to get hit with a slander lawsuit. The evidence for my intuition is buried and nearly impossible to find despite it being something I heard on the most listened to podcast series in the world.
I have no idea what you're referring to about my "intuition" that "Alex Jones would do something like this". Do what? Where are you getting this from?
Why did he come to mind, I'd call that intuition.
@ArjinFerman also
I don't want any ambiguity here, I never said or implied that Alex Jones "would do something like this" (I still don't know what is the 'something' you're referring to here), I never spoke of potential or possibilities about his conduct. The reason he came to mind is because I was trying to think of individuals comparable to Epps, and I first did so by deconstructing Epps's conduct into "He was on Capitol Grounds but did not enter, but encouraged others to enter". I figured finding someone who was caught on tape precisely asking people to enter was going to be a challenge, so I abstracted the latter factor into a more generalized "whipped up crowd to head towards the Capitol" to broaden the search. Alex Jones came to mind because he was there and I remembered him leading a "1776!" chant with a crowd. It's not going to be a perfect comparison, but I'm trying to do the work SlowBoy hasn't by proactively looking for individuals to compare Epps against, and I'm more than open to other suggestions.
I think Arjin summed it up well. Basically Alex Jones isn't a comparable example. I don't know if someone else is.
I'm not really sure on the whole original argument to begin with. Was Jan 6th instigated by intelligence agencies to create a false flag scenario? Probably not, seems like it was done too poorly. I think some actual lawmakers would have died if the FBI or CIA was really behind it and trying to sell it.
I instead think most of the hulabaloo around Jan 6th is media manufactured outrage. Most of the security footage from that day shows very boring stuff happen. There are like a few dozen tapes out of tens of thousands that show something approaching violence. One protestor was shot. 6 other people died of heart attacks. It delayed Trumps transition of power by day. It was largely a ceremonial event anyways. I know that's not the discussion you came here to have, so I only had my limited objection to the Alex Jones comparison.
Thanks for clearing it up, what edits should I make to my post to avoid giving other people the same wrong impression?
If there are no other comparable examples, then it's literally impossible to assert that Ray Epps was treated "unusually". I don't agree that there are no comparable examples, because I don't believe it's reasonable to expect the precision of a randomized controlled trial to ascertain how unusual a defendant's treatment is. So while we can't find a Ray Epps clone, it's still fair game to examine individuals who are close enough.
I looked some more and wish I found out about Ali Alexander earlier. He posted a video on January 7th saying "I did call for people to enter the US Capitol" and later during a livestream "I started a riot for the sitting president of the United States" (though he also admitted he's prone to exaggeration and hyperbole). He was never charged with a crime. A judge even examined his conduct and dismissed him from a civil lawsuit brought by Capitol Police officers because the judge ruled his speech did not rise to the level of incitement. Do you believe this guy is comparable enough to Ray Epps? Compared to Alexander, Epps was treated harshly.
There's more people who called for occupying the Capitol ahead of J6, like Matt Bracken who said "we will only be saved by millions of Americans moving to Washington, occupying the entire area—if necessary, storming right into the Capitol. You know, we know the rules of engagement: If you have enough people, you can push down any kind of a fence or a wall." I don't know if Bracken was ever on site so it's not directly comparable to Epps, but Bracken never being charged with a crime is one more data point on the comparison board.
I made a bird's eye view comparison by contrasting Epps to all other J6 defendants and nothing stood out. I then tried to make a more direct comparison to individual cases and nothing stands out there either. So overall I see no reason to believe that Ray Epps was treated with unusual anything. Do you think that's an unreasonable conclusion?
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The "something" is:
cjet is claiming this is pretty much opposite of what happened, and you said you don't have any evidence to prove otherwise.
Except you didn't mention that you decided to loosen the criteria in your original post at all, so how can you claim to be surprised we took your post as implying Alex Jones "was on Capitol Grounds but did not enter, but encouraged others to enter" if this is what you yourself claim Epps' conduct boils down to?
So why don't you just say "oops, my bad, I didn't mean to imply that", and get back to the topic at hand?
If that's what cjet is indeed referring to then oops, my bad, I didn't mean to imply that and I'm curious how that misinterpretation occurred with what I wrote and what edits I should make to rectify that. I thought "encouraged others to march towards the Capitol but did not enter themselves" was clear enough but I'm open to edit suggestions. I'm also open to other individuals who serve as better comparisons.
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From your post in which you're using Alex Jones as an example of someone who behaved analogously to Epps.
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