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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30699 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 14, 2023

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AFAIK Catholics do not believe Jews go to hell, they are Chosen.

“Participants in God’s salvation” in an “unfathomable divine mystery” is not a clear assertion that Jews are saved ceteris paribus. It is consciously ambiguous language. The relevant text is Romans 11: https://biblehub.com/esv/romans/11.htm

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

This indicates that the true remnant of Israel were the Jews who accepted Christ, as well as the gentiles grafted in:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

The above mentions that unbelieving Jews are “broken branches” which “God does not spare”. Next we read that some of the natural branches will be grafted in again,

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved.

Lastly, we have this pretty ambiguous passage, which any side can use for their argument I suppose,

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

I'm not a Catholic, but my understanding of Catholic theology on the subject of whether Jews and other non-Catholics can go to heaven is: "It's complicated." Basically, being a Catholic is the only sure way; if you're not a Catholic, theoretically there are a bunch of other criteria you have to meet which would make you eligible for heaven, but it's almost impossible to meet them without the guidance of the Church. Of course this leaves plenty of waffle room for more liberal-minded Catholics to say "Of course Jews can go to heaven."

Contrary to what you see on TV, though, pretty much no Christian denomination actually believes that being a "good person" (or a true believer in whatever your religion happens to be) is sufficient.

As a practicing catholic yes, this accurately summarizes the mainstream/official Catholic teaching on the subject however something missing is that observant Jews (as distinct from secular individuals of Jewish decent) are viewed a special case subject to their own distinct covenant. Whether they are saved is a matter for debate but also not up to us because God already made that call.

Of course this leaves plenty of waffle room for more liberal-minded Catholics to say "Of course Jews can go to heaven."

The waffle room that exists is in terms of consent. You only go to hell if you are informed and have the opportunity to accept Christ but refuse to do so. So a more liberal-minded Catholic has waffle room to say that a boy with a good heart who grows up in an Islamic society and gets no real "opportunity" to accept Christ is not doomed to hell.

The Catholic stance on the Jews is completely different. It's saying that they get salvation even if they knowingly reject Christ, but the justification is "unfathomable mystery" rather than trying to apply the other waffle room to all Jews. They are just special, so they get to go to heaven even if they reject Christ, and yes it's a complete contradiction with the Church but that's your mind on Yahweh.

The waffle room that exists is in terms of consent. You only go to hell if you are informed and have the opportunity to accept Christ but refuse to do so. So a more liberal-minded Catholic has waffle room to say that a boy with a good heart who grows up in an Islamic society and gets no real "opportunity" to accept Christ is not doomed to hell.

Yes, but they all pretty much define "opportunity" according to what they are personally most comfortable with. I've heard Christians express it the way you did, and I've heard Christians claim that if you've ever so much as heard the name "Jesus Christ," you have now heard the Word and have no excuse.

The Catholic stance on the Jews is completely different. It's saying that they get salvation even if they knowingly reject Christ, but the justification is "unfathomable mystery" rather than trying to apply the other waffle room to all Jews.

Again, there are protestant denominations that also believe this. Both Catholics and Protestants do consider Jews different from other non-Christians religions. Just as Muslims recognize Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book." The cause is the obvious historical relationship. It's not some sneaky Jewish tribal strategy to insert themselves even into their rivals' theology. Of course it is not rational, but one of the few things you and I probably agree on is that religion in general is not rational.

Mainstream Christians of any description do not like to talk about the salvation of Jews, but the bounds of catholic doctrine on the subject isn’t notably different from other denominations despite what liberal catholic apologists would like to pretend.

It is notably different, there is no salvation for those to deny Jesus according to the church, except for the Jews, and the reason for that is a "mystery." It's not really a mystery, though.

That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery.

It would be a theological problem if God reneged on His old covenant, even if He introduced a new one.

The Catholic position is that the only way through heaven is through Christ, Jesus himself said so quite directly- "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". There is no other path. That is, except when it comes to being Jewish, that is apparently the second path. But the Catholics still don't say there are two paths, they only say there is one path, through Christ, and then say that a separate rule for Jews is just a mystery we cannot comprehend.

The Catholic position is that the only way through heaven is through Christ, Jesus himself said so quite directly- "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". There is no other path. That is, except when it comes to being Jewish, that is apparently the second path. But the Catholics still don't say there are two paths, they only say there is one path, through Christ, and then say that a separate rule for Jews is just a mystery we cannot comprehend.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" is John 14:6. It's not a Catholic doctrine; it's straight from the Bible. Catholics and Protestants have slightly different takes on the verse, but it's the core basis for what is known as the doctrine of Exclusive Salvation. Some Protestants believe in exclusive salvation, some don't, and Catholics kinda sorta do with asterisks. (Said asterisks not applying solely to Jews.) So no, what you are saying is flatly inaccurate. The sarcastic "just a mystery we cannot comprehend" (wink wink nudge nudge somethingsomething Jews) appears to me to be more intentional than an inability to grasp theological nuances and contradictions.

Quoting scripture is a very Protestant way of thinking.

Indeed, that's why citing a Bible verse as "Catholic doctrine" shows either a serious misunderstanding of how Catholicism (vs. Protestantism) works, or someone who's just being obtuse.

It is notably different, there is no salvation for those to deny Jesus according to the church, except for the Jews, and the reason for that is a "mystery." It's not really a mystery, though.

It is not notably different. You hear very similar language from many Protestant denominations. (Many other Protestant denominations also say very clearly that Jews will go to hell - as have many Catholic theologians historically.) There isn't some special carve-out here somehow engineered by the Elders of Zion.

I meant Jews are regarded differently than the other groups you mentioned, I am aware that is the case across denominations, particularly among evangelicals.

There is a special carve-out, absolutely. And it was engineered by the Elders of Zion, AKA the Prophets of the bible who declared Jews to be God's Chosen people and then convinced the Gentiles to accept that proposition as part of their own religion. So it leads to these contradictions like, Jews knowingly reject Christ but they still go to heaven, obviously Christianity is going to digest that contradiction just fine because the religion itself is basically worshipping the Jews and their tribal god.

Your understanding of the history of Judaism and Christianity seems pretty lacking. Christianity began as a Jewish splinter sect. The "Elders of Zion" didn't "convince" the Gentiles to accept anything; the beliefs of early Christians were obviously informed by the fact that initially they considered themselves Jews who followed the promised Messiah. Since then, the situation has become vastly more complicated, with two thousand years of history and schisms and factions and subfactions, some still holding up Jews as "God's Chosen People" and some condemning them to hell for being Christ-killers.

I know you try to fit your ZOG narrative to everything, but it does not actually fit everything.

Saint Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was a Jewish Pharisee. And of course Jesus was a Jewish teacher. So according to the Church's own history, the messiah and apostle to the gentiles were indeed "Elders of Zion": a Pharisee and the King of the Jews. They did convince the gentiles to accept the proposition that the only real god is the Jewish tribal god Yahweh, and that all who reject him suffer eternal torture, and that he chose Jews as his Chosen People and made his son born of the Jews.

Paul claims to be a Pharisee, I tend to doubt it because what he actually wrote is wildly different from what the Tanak actually says. There’s really no precedent in the Hebrew Bible for a dying rising god, human sacrifice for sins, or ritual cannibalism. He also gets very basic things wrong. The Passover lamb has nothing to do with a sin offering.

The other thing odd about Paul’s claims is that he’s claiming to have been taught by one of the most famous Rabbis of the era, Gamaliel. This is a really wild claim to make. It would be like some random guy claiming to have learned physics at the feet of Einstein, yet not understand very basic first year physics. The two don’t fit together.

It would be like some random guy claiming to have learned physics at the feet of Einstein

If he was actually a Pharisee then he would have been taught in Jerusalem by the Rabbi there. It's like accusing someone who went to grad school in the University of Chicago in the 80's for economics of pretending they were taught by Milton Friedman or Robert Lucas. Of course they were taught by them, how could they not be?

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Like @Amadan says this is not a new take, if anything it is one of the oldest of takes in Christendom and suddenly a bunch of your other posts are making a lot more sense. You were raised and/or educated by Jews weren't you? that's why you've got such a victimhood complex isn't it?

That the rise Christianity was all part of the Pharisee's plan is a lie that a lot of status conscious Jews tell themselves precisely because the alternative is just too terrifying to contemplate.

"Christianity is a Jew religion" is not a new take, I know it's very popular with the neo-Nazi movement, and you're still ignoring the 2000 years of history since. Note that I am neither Christian nor Jewish; I'm just pointing out that you're crafting a narrative to fit your ideology about Da Joos and their sneaky cultural infiltration that ignores a lot of history and what is actually believed by Christians and Jews today.

It's your own ideology that is motivating you to downplay the implications of Gentiles accepting the Torah as divine Truth. You maybe watch something like this on the Glenn Beck show and think "how quaint, that's religion for you!" but your ideology is the one that blinds you to the bigger picture. You accuse me of pathological obsession with Jews but then refuse to acknowledge the actual worship of Jews and Israel by Christians for what it is.

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