site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31623 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Thanks for linking, this case is especially atrocious.

I really agree with this comment and I agree also with some extra

I get more of an “all aboard! Next stop: Auschwitz!” vibe.

(...)

It's awful. I can't imagine being a visitor to Toronto and being greeted with this. Like an out-of-place Holocaust Memorial.

(...)

I stand here in the same clothes I wore yesterday, 38 years old, waiting for the same train I take every single day to my minimum wage job. Every aspect of my life is falling apart. I can barely afford my rent. The grocery store is stealing my retirement. And i'm at the edge of a mental breakdown.

But here I am. Facing a wall of depression that is my literal being, funded by own tax dollars. A very interesting piece of "art" indeed.

(...)

This art makes you want to succumb to the dangerously narrow passages near the tracks. We should start a petition to get it taken down. No art at all would be an improvement over this frosted glass suicide note

(...)

That's the subway station most inhabited by tourists. This is what we think represents Toronto. Depression. Death.

(...)

It's so ugly, so depressing, and even with the vaguest of linework, it still manages to be notably misogynist. The most detailed figure is a teenaged girl dancing around a pole, and she's further dehumanized by having her body outlined more sharply than anyone else's, but her face hidden, AND a yucky guy leering at her - who may be racialized as Black, just to be even more offensive. I despise everything about this.

(while last one is matching claims that are usually false here it mostly matches my own initial impression)

most detailed figure is a teenaged girl dancing around a pole

The "art" is awful, but she's clearly holding on to a train pole rather than dancing on a stripper pole.

Yes, but I admit that it was one of my immediate thoughts. Maybe because it was depressing and pole is without any context? And in my areas public transport poles are not standalone in the middle but more bundled with other parts of the vehicle?

Wow, those are...not inspiring.

I do think the pole is a subway handrail, for what little that's worth.

Yes, but I admit that it was one of my immediate thoughts. Maybe because it was depressing and pole is without any context? And in my areas public transport poles are not standalone in the middle but more bundled with other parts of the vehicle?

Did you mean to write the same comment twice?

I wanted to respond to both people. Should I respond to one of them and hope that other will coincidentally see the other reply?

You can tag the other commenter @traveller

They'll get a ping and it kind of consolidates the thread.

The standard workaround that I've seen is to use a username reference ("@‌ToaKraka") for a second or third person. Reddit silently disables username alerts if you attempt to use too many username references in a single comment, and I assume that this software has a similar limitation.

(Obligatory reminder that imageboard software doesn't have this problem, and allows conversation threads to merge as well as to branch.)

Thanks, I was unaware of that!

@FiveHourMarathon

Somewhat amusingly the section highlighted by the original poster might not even be the worst part. Some other nightmarish panels:

1 2 3

I thought the people were overselling it given the OP, it looks drab and depressing but nowhere near these schizo looking things.

It feels like the environment was designed by people who actively hate those who have to be in it or something.

What the hell.

There's a wider selection, and an explanation, from the artist's website:

On the track side, while you think you can see the entire expanse of the mural, and the train track gives you some mandatory distance from its glass panels, you are often less than 12’ away from an artwork which is over 500’ long. Walking the full length of the terminal, the work is visible only in the intervals between the arrival and departure of trains. At rush-hours, this is less than every 5 minutes.

This time-bracketed viewing of the artwork, as well as its intimate contemplation of our contemporary urban human condition, mirrors and channels the structure and meaning of Charles Dickens composed epic novels, made in intimate sections for his daily 19th century newspaper readership.

Although the project is conceived as a whole (this work has the overall sweep of an entire city block and can be seen as a continuously unfolding ribbon), the title zones of immersion implies that seeing the work close up is a both a necessity and an affordance, allowing a charged intimacy in this public space – a pathos rarely available in public art.

The expression of psyche in public space can give public art a purpose greater than spectacle or decoration. This work presents the unvarnished witnessing of our human dwelling – which speaks of our collective separateness. (I feel a kinship here with Daumier’s Third Class Carriage, and Henry Moore’s wartime subway drawings). The unwritten code of the subway gaze, which says ‘look down/look away’, is challenged as we see ourselves in the work, through drawings and reflections. This window into our contemporary isolation offers faces and body language, blurred and revealed poetic writings from my journal entries, and rhythms of colour that punctuate the ribboned expanse.

And in a certain sense, it's definitely not wrong: "pathos", "separateness" and "urban condition" are definitely things expressed very well in the 'art', to the extent that many critics of urbanism could point to it pretty precisely as an example.

((Uh, though the 'poem' is schlock.))

It's just no one seemed to stop to consider whether that was the right goal.

It would look better if they just had the coloured panels and scrapped the (bad) charcoal drawings of "let us remind you why you hate travelling on public transport, because it reminds you that you are just a faceless cog in the economic machinery forced into a routine like a rat in a cage".

There is no sense of beauty anymore. And yet people want beauty, as the comments from ordinary people show.

Normal people have a strong sense of beauty. Unfortunately sociopaths have figured out how to get themselves into positions of power and we’re ruled by people who largely don’t give a shit about their job and have no sense of responsibility.

I meant from a purely aesthetic standpoint it's extremely strong, people are definitely getting an artistic experience out of this, it's not some forgettable triviality. But I'm not sure I'd consider breaking people's spirits like this a wise or ethical use of the power of art.

I miss art déco.

Yeah I can easily see someone like me (but with money) picking that piece. Particularly with modern art, where so much is about the interpretation, it is easy to get lost in your own perspective or too focused on one or two concepts to the exclusion of everything else. It wouldn't even occur to me how miserable it would be to see every day until it was installed, I'd be too busy jerking the author off over the irony of it all.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats