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Notes -
Maybe better suited for the culture war thread, but I think I'm leaving the Catholic Church. I converted in 2022 for a number of reasons. I had already felt drawn to Catholic literature/aesthetics for almost as long as I could remember (I loved Silence and A Canticle for Leibowitz), was incredibly dissastisfied with the secular attitude towards spirituality and morality, and was drawn to the simplicity of Jesus' simplification of the Jewish Law: Love thy neighbor as thyself, and Love God. I choose the Catholic Church over other denominations because it was not woke, open to revising stances on scripture (evolution), and concerned more with works over just belief.
It's been three years since I went through RCIA and converted, and a combination of contradictions between the church and my other beliefs about the world has become difficult to resolve. This center around two big areas. The first revolves around veganism/animal rights/environmentalism. Although this certainly wasn't always the case historically within the church (St. Francis and the Benedictines come to mind), there seems to be this attitude at least in my parish that animals and nature were only created for us to do with as we please. This is backed up by an interpretation of Genesis that suggests that God created man to rule over animals and nature. Not only do I think this is wrong ethically, we know many animals have conscious experiences and shouldn't be treated "however we want" (not to say that they should be treated like humans necessarily), but it also seems to have led to disaster in relationship to our environment. Even if you don't believe Climate Change is a serious issue, we have replaced most of the vertebrate biomass on land with us and our (maltreated) farm animals. Certainly there are many in the Church who would see this as wrong (the Pope included), but it doesn't seem to be so in parishes I've been to, and to justify it scripturally it seems like you have to jump through a bunch of hoops.
The second issue has to do with the relationship between divine revelation, philosophy, and science. It's not the church hasn't historically changed its position on things (slavery, evolution, not doing everything in Latin), it's that any change has to conform to certain core dogma and be based in an interpretation of scripture. But the more I read of philosophy, the more I've started to believe that certain tenets of catholic theology don't agree with objective reality and are poorly argued for by the "greats" (Augustine, Aquinas). The problem is not necessarily that these tenets are wrong: more so that they can't be interrogated in a reasonable philosophical manner because divine revelation is unquestionable.
The final unrelated reason that I'm leaving is the people. When I first joined the parish, we had a much more vibrant young adult community that actually did stuff together, had interests beyond theology, and generally was much more concerned with works than beliefs. Through a combination of people moving away and/or leaving the church, it seems the only people really left are trad-caths who I find boring, close-minded, and fail to see the core of what Jesus was trying to say. The Dominicans who run the parish, while being excellent administrators, and kind people, aren't much better when it comes to intellectual openness.
Anyway, I'm open to coming back to the church when/if I move away from the current parish I'm in to more Jesuit-friendly pastures. But without massive reform, both philosophically and practically (being much more concerned with environmentalism and non-human life on this planet), I think this era of my life is over. I'm not sure where to go next spiritually, but hopefully that will come with time.
Others have addressed the theology/philosophy a bit, so I'll speak to the other two.
Re. environmentalism and animal welfare, I do agree that many Catholics oversimplify the genesis story as you describe. FWIW, I've heard some priests and laymen say (and I personally believe) that humanity is something akin to a "father" or "priest" to all animals and to nature. We have authority over the natural world, but we also have an obligation to treasure it, to respect it as a gift, and to leading it to perfection by applying human virtues (charity/mercy, temperance, humility) to our interactions with it. I don't know if that makes sense, but I could try to give examples.
I've thought a lot about this over the last few years, as I am living in Japan, and Shintoism is quite nature-focused. I've heard it said by some here that "ittadakimasu," the one-word ritual word said before meals, mean something like "I will (humbly) take," as in "I will humbly partake of this food given to me through the sacrifice of animal and vegetables lives.". Not sure how many people here truly believe that, but I think it's a good little reminder to be thankful for what I consume, both to God and His creation.
As far as parishes go, some are just not great. I've been living in a rural part of Japan for a few years now, and my family probably includes nearly 50% of the entire population of kids. The median age is probably over 70. The priest himself is nearly as old. I tried to get involved for the first 2 years we were here only to be politely ignored. The level of catechesis here is lower than in America, even among young people, if you can believe it. Ignorance of basic doctrines, so it's impossible to have much of a discussion about faith.l or Catholic life. Zero accomodations for kids. There was a cry room, but the priest asked us not to use it unless the baby was crying, and asked us to sit in the first row instead (!) with our baby and two toddlers and one young elementary schooler.
I was angry the first few years I lived here, but then I realized -- maybe I was not sent here to enjoy parish social life or have deep discussions. Maybe that's not what my mission is. Maybe I'm supposed to be here to be an example of a young family with kids in church. Maybe I'm here to learn that theological rabbitholes and after mass coffee and donuts aren't what Mass is about. Maybe I'm not meant to feel spiritual peace and ruminate on scripture during mass, but instead to do the hard work of showing my kids how to pray, and to show others that yes, it is possible to have more than 1.5 kids and to bring them to church every Sunday. My point is -- consider why God brought you to this parish. Some spiritual work is fulfilling and rewarding, and other spiritual work is taxing and dry, and which is which differs based on the person. Perhaps it might be worth trying to engage with some of the folks you dislike at your parish with a more open mind.
I agree with this. My take (which I guess my dad instilled in me) is that God gave us the natural world for our use, but we are stewards and not owners. So for example, I feel no qualms about eating meat because God put the animals there for us to enjoy. But I also wouldn't butcher animals I'm not going to eat, or kill animals just for the hell of it, because ultimately they don't truly belong to me. I believe that I am responsible for those creatures, and one day I'll be held to account for what I've done if I misuse them.
As regards the broader topic of environmentalism, I have been reflecting recently that my views mean I should be an environmentalist to some extent. I think that people do take things too far sometimes, but I owe the natural world some level of care even as I make use of its resources. What that means in terms of concrete policies I should support, I'm not sure. But I do think that I should figure out where exactly I draw the line between "responsible stewardship" and "overly strict" with some of these environmentalist topics.
I'm skeptical of large society-wide initiatives, there are just too many places to hide graft and ulterior agendas. So I apply my environmentalist principles the same way I try to apply my other Christian principles -- locally, on whoever and whatever is around me on a regular basis. I have a hard time figuring out whether a given political policy actually helps, but it's easy to not waste food or destroy plant or animal life unnecessarily, to "leave no trace" when camping, and to tend the small strip of land around my house to make it beautiful. This is a bit more abstract, but I also think that gifts are meant to be enjoyed, so I make an effort to enjoy the outdoors and say prayers of thanks while doing so. I think that's also part of it.
Good thoughts, thanks. I think you're definitely right that acting locally is a great way to do good in ways you can be sure of the outcome.
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I’m confused. Do you believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ or not?
Shouldn’t it all follow from there? It appears it doesn’t in your case, and this reads like you’re upset your new social club became lame.
Were you lying about your beliefs to these other Catholics? You’re open to rejoining the church when the correct people once again associate themselves with your parish?
Does being near more Jesuit-friendly believers suddenly make it once again true that Jesus died on the cross and rose again?
This is an epistemic mess, and you make me wonder how many of you are on the pew next to me, agitating for my church to update its interpretation of holy scripture.
Yes I do. But it doesn't all follow from there unfortunately because the church is built on much more than just Jesus' passion, resurrection, and death. It's largely built on Pauline interpretations of the Gospels, and the entirety of the Old Testament which is largely contradictory to the New Testament. It's not as simple as just "repent and believe the gospel" because so many things have been grafted on top of that are required to be part of the church.
I think you're reading me extremely uncharitably here (as the other catholics that I complain about do too), and actually makes me want to leave more than I already do (which is perhaps what you would want anyway, which I have some sympathy with). Things empirically do not just follow from reading the scriptures (or else why would there be so many denominations of Christianity). I believe in Papal Authority and church hierarchy which is one of the reasons why I am catholic. The Jesuits' have a much more open interpretation to theological problems where I struggle with the Dominican positions.
I agree I was too harsh. In my defense it wasn’t clear whether you were quibbling with your local expression of Catholicism or if you had simply thrown out the whole faith because your friends moved away. You say yourself you converted for the books and incense and are leaving because of your own ideas of animal welfare or other unarticulated abstract philosophical objections.
I’m not even Catholic myself. But my eyebrows do jump up when I read “I believe in Papal authority and hierarchy but don’t think I’ll do what they say or follow to them to their conclusions.” Also isn’t weekly Mass, like, super required?
Yeah, if they believe in papal authority, it would follow that they have to believe and do all the rest.
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Whenever I meet young adult Catholics I have a great time. They're polite, open-minded, and not infected with the WMV like almost every other denomination. The older folks are often really tough to get along with.
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I don't know if this is because you're a convert, but it seems like your problems are not with the Catholic Faith, it's with the people in the pews next to you. Ultimately, I only really need from the Church access to the Sacraments. 99% of my spiritual development has happened at home. How often do you go to Confession and receive Communion in a state of Grace?
I recommend reading Fire Within to see what the end result of spiritual progress would look like. Having an idea of the goal in mind can help a lot. If you already have a goal, what is it? From what you wrote, it seems like your biggest goal of becoming Catholic was to flee an Atheistic Identity while still holding Atheistic Suppositions about the world.
There have been times and parishes where I don't interact with anyone at all, pray silently instead of paying attention to the homily, receive the sacraments, and walk away. It's wonderful when the Church can also provide social opportunities, but it's not often that this happens.
Augustine and Aquinas are not infallible and their philosophy isn't infallible. The Church has not committed herself to their philosophy, even in cases where she uses the phrase "Transubstantiation" there is no commitment to the Accidents/Substance distinction of Aquinas.
If you really need a change of scenery (and a church that doesn't treat Aquinas like Scripture) see if there are any Eastern Catholic churches near you. A benefit of finding an Eastern Catholic Church over converting to Orthodoxy is that Orthodoxy will make you go through initiation again, while you'll be able to just go to an Eastern Catholic Church without a fuss. But I would rather you try Orthodoxy than disappear.
Before I stopped going to mass completely (~2 months ago), I would go to confession every couple weeks and not usually receive Communion unless I did so (I too am a miserable sinner that tells stupid lies and masturbates).
My goal in converting to Catholicism was to try and connect with the divine that I know is out there in the world. I didn't write this in my post but I had a mystical experience at the church of the holy sepulcher in 2019 that convinced me that something around Jerusalem/Jesus/Christianity was special and true. I've very rarely felt this at mass, but this is perhaps from trying too hard to connect with other parishioners/the institution rather than what I came there for (God).
This is all true and helpful and has inspired me to make another effort to find Christ. I'm going to return to mass and read the book that you suggested and see if it helps me overcome my philosophical doubts and recenter myself on the sacraments and a connection with God.
Thank you for hearing me out, I was worried I came across as too harsh, but it looks like I'm only medium harshness comparatively.
If you ever want to talk with someone about your doubts, philosophy, the Bible, etc, feel free to DM me. I also highly recommend Jimmy Akin for a rational (though he was doing it before the Rationalists, he's just likely autistic) explanation of Catholic teaching. And I have Joe Heshmeyer and Dr. Brant Pitre to thank for making the Bible seem coherent and reasonable. All three are all over Youtube and have books out.
One of the biggest difficulties smart people run into with Catholicism is that a lot of what you find in books and online is classified as "acceptable theological opinion." It's a small "t" tradition and hasn't been made dogma. Even a Nihil Obistat on a book doesn't mean that everything in it is 100% dogmatically true, it simply means "nothing (currently) obstructs," there's no outright heresy in it. That doesn't stop people from acting like their particular theological hobby horse is 100% set in stone and disagreeing with it is tantamount to leaving the Catholic faith.
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Sorry to hear! That sounds difficult.
I’d recommend checking out Eastern Orthodoxy. Fasting from meat is much more common and well regarded over here. Also to your points about theology, there’s much more room for Holy Scripture.
My parish has had a lot of Catholic converts with similar issues to you I believe.
I have thought about it before and will see if there are any Orthodox churches near me.
I hope it works out for ya. I'll warn you tho not all Orthodox churches are created equally hah. There's a ton of variety.
Some of them are deeply ethnic enclaves with all the liturgy in a foreign language, others are entirely in English. YMMV.
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Since it's Holy Week this week, it might be worth visiting a service if it's feasible -- Friday evening (Lamentations), Saturday Morning (Descent into Hell), and Saturday night (Pascha) are all highlights, but next Sunday is also very Paschal and lovely.
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I think this would be a problem with any institution. It’s full of us miserable sinners. I find myself drawn to high church Protestantism and it’s the same thing. On paper or on YouTube videoed of the services far away from any real people messing things up it sounds great. The real people are not like the theoretical ones that populate that denomination in your head. So I think at some point, it’s better to find a church that you actually like and worry less about the aesthetics and denomination and theology and simply get involved.
Nice! What sort of church do you attend?
(I'm Presbyterian/Reformed.)
LCMS Lutheran, though im rather fond of the conservative Anglicans as well.
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I like the idea of the Tree in Genesis being an endangered species; it is not in the consuming of the fruit of “knowing good & evil” that we damned ourselves, but in preventing its flourishing and multiplication; that our consuming it halted the spread of the knowledge of good and evil, which required the tree to remain in a virginal state carefully tended by God. The tree itself was, in a sense, monogenes — one of a kind, only-begotten. This then has environmental implications: the very first sin which doomed us was our harm to endangered nature in its virginal state. And we see how the Gospel factors into the story of salvation: the monogenes of God (and endangered Messiah of man) must perish on a dead tree, after spreading the seed of Moral Wisdom involving good fruit from good trees, to resurrect in the appearance of a gardener (to Magdalene).
I like this metaphor a lot! I'll have to use it myself.
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So the obvious question to me here is: how do you feel about transubstantiation?
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